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post #31 of 58

Quick question, but first I'd like to say.. Very interesting discussion.

 

Here's the deal.. I'm 5'9", 140lbs. I ski the East and ride Metron 10s (No laughing , these skis brought me to the next level) I'm 99% self-taught... from watching others, trial and error, and reading these boards. A lot of time the jargon is a bit over my head, but I try my best to understand. I can carve well. I can lay down nice RR tracks, and I've been trying to get more comfortable shifting my balance around and I've been exploring (fooling around, as others on the mountain may see it) to see what will happen.  Here's my question:

 

  I understand what counter is in the context of this thread. However, I'm not sure how to determine whether it's something I'm doing. When carving, I keep my shoulders square down the hill as best I can. Lately, I've been playing on flatter terrain, such as runouts from trails. I am able to carve at low speeds with very high edge angles, while still keeping my shoulders square. However, I feel that it takes a lot of effort from my mid-body (hips/waist) to maintain my balance. I feel that I have to 'steer' the skis around more, despite it resulting in a clean carve. Is that effort that is happening at my hips/waist likely the "Counter" than you are talking about?

 

  I hope this makes sense.

 

  

post #32 of 58

Umm Ladies please don't look at this reply.

hydrogen a wise man once said to me meny years ago."Ski with your pecker down hill"

This is the point that the counter-rotation wants to start

post #33 of 58

hydrogen,

 

We have to see video to really say for sure, but I would guess that you are not developing counter until the very last part of your turn.  This is typical when skiers attempt to ski while maintaining their upper body down the hill, which makes sense sometimes and other times does not.  

 

If you proactively establish counter earlier in turn then it will make the hip/waist muscle tension MUCH easier to deal with.  As you start a turn, stand onto your new outside ski and then swing your pelvis forward around that leg; like a door on a hinge. This will put you into a countered stance before the apex of the turn.

post #34 of 58

So, for instance, as my left ski becomes the outside ski, I want to 'point my belly button' toward the left via a rotation at the hips (hip sockets?)

 

   I don't notice any tension when I'm skiing at normal speeds, but I know that your flaws really shine when you try to do some of the same things on gentler terrain. I'm just unsure whether the extra effort required when i'm using high edge angles at very low speeds is due to a technique flaw, or just more work to maintain balance that is independent of technique.

 

I'm taking a ski day tomorrow, so I want to accumulate an arsenal of things to work on. And, unfortunately, I usually ski alone so video is not an option at this point. I understand that the the information I can be given is limited by that. Thanks for all the help.

 

 

post #35 of 58

Yes, but you won't have to point the belly button very far really.  Start with just slightly to the outside of your left ski.

 

Doing big edge angle turns on gentle terrain can be more difficult if you don't have some speed already built up.  The tendency might be to try to get more turn than is actually justified or supported by the equipment at that slope and speed, which means you may try to muscle the turn with some rotary or other things.  

 

 

post #36 of 58

Gotcha. Makes sense now... So, basically, If you ski with your torso directed downhill, counter at the beginning of the turn is something that must be actively done, where 'skiing into counter'  is just an effect of keeping the torso facing downhill while the legs are rotating in the hip sockets in order to 'bring the skis around' during the last third of the turn (apex to transition)?

 

  Is that a correct statement?

post #37 of 58

Yes, according to me.  but I feel an attack coming.  Better duck. 

post #38 of 58

Thanks for the help. I will focus on this tomorrow. Despite what it's called, I now have a way to think about it in terms I understand and I know how it will benefit me. That's what's important to me.

 

  One last thing: If I perform two exact turns with the only difference being counter early vs. counter later, what should i experience different between the two turns? Less effort? More control? 

post #39 of 58

Hey have you guys watched prangers slalom win on Ski racing.com. I find one shot in particular germaine to this discussion. The slow mo replay of a turn and you can watch frame by frame as his skis turn one way and finish a turn (a tail carve because he's getting launched a bit) and it is interesting what he is doing in the air. Hands and shoulders turning into the new turn as the legs extend and unwind. An upper body towards the turn version of countering movements. So much for the theory that it is an antique and irrelevent to modern skiing. It helped him win a world championship.

BTS Artificial counter is exactly what Ron said is going away. Counter for counter's sake isn't anything more than a drill. It isn't bad to know it but it really has a limited application in modern skiing and racing. So I am surprised you are mentioning it here.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 2/26/2009 at 01:59 am


Edited by justanotherskipro - 2/26/2009 at 02:01 am
post #40 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrogen_wv View Post

 

  One last thing: If I perform two exact turns with the only difference being counter early vs. counter later, what should i experience different between the two turns? Less effort? More control? 

 

Why don't you try it out a bit and then come tell us what you experience.

 

 

post #41 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

 Hey have you guys watched prangers slalom win on Ski racing.com. I find one shot in particular germaine to this discussion. The slow mo replay of a turn and you can watch frame by frame as his skis turn one way and finish a turn (a tail carve because he's getting launched a bit) and it is interesting what he is doing in the air. Hands and shoulders turning into the new turn as the legs extend and unwind. An upper body towards the turn version of countering movements. So much for the theory that it is an antique and irrelevent to modern skiing. It helped him win a world championship.

 

 

Please provide pics or video. Your explanation does not sound anything like counter. That sounds like anticipation and perhaps upper body rotation in an effort to generate similar results as anticipation without having the benefit of being able to ski into the anticipation. This has almost nothing to do with counter.

 

BTS Artificial counter is exactly what Ron said is going away. Counter for counter's sake isn't anything more than a drill. It isn't bad to know it but it really has a limited application in modern skiing and racing. So I am surprised you are mentioning it here.

 

I completely disagree with you. There is nothing "artificial" about counter, any more than any other skiing skill. It is a skill and most definitely is still relevant today.
post #42 of 58

Turns out the counter was already there... Imagine that. It seems that after my transition. the counter comes automatically for me. I must have subconsciously realized it helped and incorporated it. Thanks for the info and the help. :D

post #43 of 58

BTS go to Ski racing .com and watch the video. Without viewing the video how can you possibly have an opinion about it. Is there still an ignore button on this new platform?

post #44 of 58

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrogen_wv View Post

 

Turns out the counter was already there... Imagine that. It seems that after my transition. the counter comes automatically for me. I must have subconsciously realized it helped and incorporated it. Thanks for the info and the help. :D

 

Yay.  how is that for artificial!

 

post #45 of 58

I can't see Pranger's win,  can you tell me where it took place?  Maybe I can find it on Youtube.

 

Maybe YOU can find it on Youtube. Like search for Pranger? You'll know better than I if it's there.

 

Thanks.

post #46 of 58

Their video link to universal sports had it last time I checked, and I just checked and it is still there. The dark box for Universal sports has a scroll down slider on the right hand side of the window. Pranger wins Wold championship sl.

post #47 of 58

I went directly to Universal sports,com and looked up 2/15 Pranger wins Wold championship SL.

post #48 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Boot View Post

 

Umm Ladies please don't look at this reply.

hydrogen a wise man once said to me meny years ago."Ski with your pecker down hill"

This is the point that the counter-rotation wants to start

This adage is also the cause of many misconceptions about ski technique. While it is true that if we are making short radius turns with our direction of intended travel aimed down the fall line then we do keep our coat zipper aligned down the hill. This alignment allows us to maintain a stable upper body while our legs turn independently and quickly beneath our body.

However, in medium to long radius turns where our turns carry us across the fall line into a more traversing arc, to keep our body facing down the hill results in an inefficient stance usually in the backseat. In these turns there should be minimal if any counter rotation, especially in the first half of the turn.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 

hydrogen,

 

If you proactively establish counter earlier in turn then it will make the hip/waist muscle tension MUCH easier to deal with.  As you start a turn, stand onto your new outside ski and then swing your pelvis forward around that leg; like a door on a hinge. This will put you into a countered stance before the apex of the turn.

Again, we must define the type of turn and the amount of counter before making generalizations about creating counter rotation. If we establish counter rotation early in a medium/long radius turn it will often result in being back which demands a corrective action to correct.

post #49 of 58

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcarlson View Post

 

This adage is also the cause of many misconceptions about ski technique. While it is true that if we are making short radius turns with our direction of intended travel aimed down the fall line then we do keep our coat zipper aligned down the hill. This alignment allows us to maintain a stable upper body while our legs turn independently and quickly beneath our body.

However, in medium to long radius turns where our turns carry us across the fall line into a more traversing arc, to keep our body facing down the hill results in an inefficient stance usually in the backseat.

 

 

Yes GC, great point!  Keeping your upper body facing the fall line is a short radius skill, primarily, for a variety of reasons 

 

 

 

 

In these turns there should be minimal if any counter rotation, especially in the first half of the turn.  

 

 

This I do not agree with, but I think your understanding of counter is different than mine.  You seem to equate counter to keeping your upper body facing down the fall line.  This confusion arises from the commonly taught idea of "skiing into counter", which in my opinion is better stated as "skiing into anticipation".  The reason I prefer to use the word anticipation for this use is for exactly the reason that there is so much confusion on this point.  When you make short radius turns and keep your upper body facing the fall line, you are establishing anticipation.  That is the main purpose of skiing into counter.  yes, your upper body is facing away from the direction of the turn, so yea, technically speaking you are skiing into a countered position.  But the fact is that this countered position at this part of the turn is primarily designed to create anticipation.  So calling it "skiing into counter" completely loses that point, and in addition hides the other use for counter, which has nothing to do with anticipation, but has only to do with lining up the body into a countered stance so that it can deal with turn forces and body positions more effectively.

 

 Again, we must define the type of turn and the amount of counter before making generalizations about creating counter rotation. If we establish counter rotation early in a medium/long radius turn it will often result in being back which demands a corrective action to correct.

 

I also do not agree with this, but I think its because you are equating counter to mean the "skiing into counter" concept, or keeping your upper body facing down the fall line, which is IMHO more effectively stated as "skiing into anticipation".  Too much anticipation in a longer radius turn is unneccessary and can be destructive to clean turn entries, unless an entry pivot is desired for some reason.  

 

The early turn counter I was referring to you, which you quoted me does not have anything to do with keeping the upper body facing down the fall line, but is actually the opposite, turning your upper body AWAY from the fall line in the top part of the turn.  Read the bit a little more carefully you quoted from me again about a "hinge".  This does not lead to back seat, nor does it lead to facing down the fall-line.

 

Some people will argue that new skiing does not need counter of this type or as much.  Perhaps so.  However, when I watch the guys skiing on TV, I see it being used all over the place, paticularly in Super-G and downhill events.  New skis do let us get away with more banking, less angulation, less counter, etc.  However, there will always arise situations where more angulation is required, more counter will make angulation easier and more effective, etc.

post #50 of 58

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by borntoski683 

 This I do not agree with, but I think your understanding of counter is different than mine.  You seem to equate counter to keeping your upper body facing down the fall line.  This confusion arises from the commonly taught idea of "skiing into counter", which in my opinion is better stated as "skiing into anticipation". 

 

 

I also do not agree with this, but I think its because you are equating counter to mean the "skiing into counter" concept, or keeping your upper body facing down the fall line, which is IMHO more effectively stated as "skiing into anticipation".  Too much anticipation in a longer radius turn is unneccessary and can be destructive to clean turn entries, unless an entry pivot is desired for some reason.  

 

The early turn counter I was referring to you, which you quoted me does not have anything to do with keeping the upper body facing down the fall line, but is actually the opposite, turning your upper body AWAY from the fall line in the top part of the turn.

 

Some people will argue that new skiing does not need counter of this type or as much.    New skis do let us get away with more banking, less angulation, less counter, etc.  However, there will always arise situations where more angulation is required, more counter will make angulation easier and more effective, etc.

 

I was in error in not clearly defining my understanding and reference to counter rotation as it applies to short vs. long radius turns. My comment about keeping the body facing down the hill in long radius turns was in reference to the "pecker" statement.

I am in agreement with you that counter rotation means the body turns in an opposite direction to the legs and skis and that at the beginning of a longer radius turn this means that the body is turned to the outside of the turn. The fact that my discussion was misunderstood by you who have a knowledge of the terms and dynamics emphasizes my point that we and I shouldn't make generalizations when discussing counter rotation and how it applies to our skiing. We need to be more specific as to the radius of the turn and the amount of counter rotation as it applies to that turn. My concern is that one can misunderstand the full scope of a term as it relates to a movement in skiing and accept that as gospel. They then adapt a misunderstood movement into their skiing which later can become an obstacle to further development of efficient skiing. 

As an example, this is a clip from the popular Sofa Ski School video which shows a marked amount of counter rotation in a long radius turn. 

 It is obvious that counter rotation here is moving the CoM  back

which is detrimental to efficient skiing. Adapting this type of counter rotation into ones muscle memory bank will quickly cause unforeseen problems. Yet some will take this amount of counter rotation out of the context of arcing and apply it to their overall skiing with predictable bad results. 

I have seen more problems in students applying counter rotation to the beginning of their turns resulting in the CoM moving back and to the inside of the turn rather than minimizing or eliminating counter which facilitates moving the CoM forward and inside as desired in our directional movement into the turn. 

 

So, if I were to generalize about counter rotation I would state that our upper body should face in the direction of our intended travel. This places us square or perpendicular to our skis in a long radius turn where our direction of travel is towards the apex. In short radius turns it aligns our body down the fall line requiring much more counter rotation. I think that the purpose of counter rotation is to facilitate rapid leg/ski turning under a stable upper body so that we don't create unwanted momentum in the body which then creates problems requiring compensatory movements. When we are in a long radius turn where there is no rapid turning of the legs/skis as relates to the upper body, a squared up stance is more anatomically efficient and requires less muscle action than a counter rotated stance. And we must accept that there are many variations between these 2 extremes. Making ski turns is ultimately somewhat complicated. 

post #51 of 58

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcarlson View Post

we and I shouldn't make generalizations when discussing counter rotation and how it applies to our skiing. We need to be more specific as to the radius of the turn and the amount of counter rotation as it applies to that turn.

 

 

Exactly. Which is why I prefer to refer to anticipation as anticipation, rather than calling it counter. In order to distinguish it as a seperate concept, which it is.  Also, a countered stance is not the same as counter-rotary movements, though the movements are sometimes neccessary to establish the stance.

 

 

My concern is that one can misunderstand the full scope of a term as it relates to a movement in skiing and accept that as gospel. They then adapt a misunderstood movement into their skiing which later can become an obstacle to further development of efficient skiing. 

 

 

Absolutely. The problem really started a while back when people started trying to come up with alternative ways of labeling certain movements that would sound less technical for their clients. This has led to overlapping and conflicting terminology, as well as loss of key concepts in the minds of people teaching and learning how to ski.

 

 

As an example, this is a clip from the popular Sofa Ski School video which shows a marked amount of counter rotation in a long radius turn. 

 It is obvious that counter rotation here is moving the CoM  back

which is detrimental to efficient skiing.

 

 

we can take your word for it that this was a long radius turn and in such a case I would agree that its exagerated more than neccessary. But that does not negate the need for SOME early turn counter in longer radius turns. This looks more like an exaggerated instructor demo than something you typically see anyone doing on the hill in medium/long radius turns. Its much more typical to see skiers without any counter or worse yet, some upper body rotation.

 

Otherwise, you more typically see this pose in someone that is trying to keep the upper body down the fall line because someone told them to do that.(assume the camara is looking down the fall line). In that scenario I don't view that as too much early counter, but rather too much anticipation at the end of the turn, ie...skiing too much into counter, turning their legs under their body too much. UNLESS they specifically wanted to create some anticipation because their next turn is going to be short for some reason.  This skier has no poles.  Its probably an instructor student doing a deliberate drill to learn a concept.

 

 

Adapting this type of counter rotation into ones muscle memory bank will quickly cause unforeseen problems. Yet some will take this amount of counter rotation out of the context of arcing and apply it to their overall skiing with predictable bad results. 

 

 

 

Which type are you referring to now?

 

 

I have seen more problems in students applying counter rotation to the beginning of their turns resulting in the CoM moving back and to the inside of the turn rather than minimizing or eliminating counter which facilitates moving the CoM forward and inside as desired in our directional movement into the turn. 

 

 

Definitely do not agree here. But I agree that early counter is a high level skill and should be emphasized only after other fundamentals are mastered. Also, obvious cases where someone doesn't have a handle on the DIRT aspect of their counter-rotation movements and is going too far with it, definitely have to be identified and resolved. However, that does not entirely negate the usefulness for early counter.  it only identifies a need for more finese.

 

 

 

So, if I were to generalize about counter rotation I would state that our upper body should face in the direction of our intended travel. This places us square or perpendicular to our skis in a long radius turn where our direction of travel is towards the apex.

 

In short radius turns it aligns our body down the fall line requiring much more counter rotation.

 

 

Short radius turns primarily benefit from the anticipation you are describing because most people use a little pivoting in their short radius turns. The anticipation helps to generate that pivoting action without having to muscle it. Also, the tempo of short radius turns is much faster and its just more effective to think of holding your upper body stable and letting your legs do a lot of turning underneath you.

 

Most people do not feel this kind of skiing as actual counter-rotation.  They feel it as holding their upper body steady and turning their legs underneath them.  Most visualizations that are effective involve those kinds of mental models for teaching.  However, the skier is without a doubt activating counter-rotation related muscles in order to keep the upper body from following the skis.  

 

This is more about anticipation, rotary and keeping the upper body quiet.

 

 

I think that the purpose of counter rotation is to facilitate rapid leg/ski turning under a stable upper body so that we don't create unwanted momentum in the body which then creates problems requiring compensatory movements.

 

 

Ooops, should have read this first. yep!

 

 

When we are in a long radius turn where there is no rapid turning of the legs/skis as relates to the upper body, a squared up stance is more anatomically efficient and requires less muscle action than a counter rotated stance.

 

 

Don't agree. One of the main purposes of counter is to make it easier for your body to angulate and establish outside ski dominance. It lines up larger muscle groups in such a way that you can angulate using those larger muscles to support the forces normally being transmitted to your outside hip. Angulating without counter is LESS anatomically effecient, not more.

 

Another aspect is that early counter establishes a gait mechanism, which our bodies are designed to do at birth and provides all kinds of good stuff for skiing.

 

The villianization of early counter by many is just as evil, in my opinion, as the villianization that is perpetrated by some people in the ski community against rotary skills. Boo to both camps for different reasons.  You're both talking dogma.

 

post #52 of 58

Uggh.  Flipping double post because of flaky edit behavior.  Read the post below instead.

post #53 of 58

BTS has it right.

 

What I think of as "counter" involves a movement of the hips which is solely to facilitate angulating to a stacked body position that allows you to angulate and stand hard on your outside ski--which is often what is necessary to hold on ice.  This is why counter is still very much alive on the WC.  This movement is also sometimes referred to as a "strong inside half".  While this type of counter can have the effect of pointing your torso down the hill, there is none of the muscular tension that exists in the other movement (which Ron LeMaster calls anticipation) and therefore you get no help transitioning to your next turn.  

 

Radius has nothing to do with whether counter should be used.  Again, the purpose is solely to allow the skier to angulate so they can pressure the outside ski as needed to hold.  Moreover, counter doesn't cause the COM to move back.  There is nothing implicit in the movement that would require the skier to adjust their fore-aft balance.  Which isn't to say that you can't counter from a back-stance, just that the act of countering shouldn't have put you there.

 

With anticipation, you torque your torso (without moving your hips).  This creates muscular tension that will unwind--and this is the great fallacy behind counter rotation--*provided you release pressure from your skis*.  Anticipation is why a twister-spread works so well and why old-school counter rotation was abandoned.  In practice, the muscular tension isn't enough to overcome the friction of a weighted ski.  That said, anticipation is a technique that can have some effect when the terrain can help out--such as when your ski can pivot on the top of a mogul.  Anticipation also works great with short turns on the steeps, because the skis will often lose contact with the snow, at which point the torque helps bring them around.

 

In any case, we can't talk about this stuff without drawing a distinction between movements of the hips versus movements of the torso.  The key point is that they can (and do) move independently of each other.  Statements like "the body should face in the direction of" sort of miss the point unless they are qualified by "use your hips to move your body so it faces" or "twist your torso, but don't move your hips, so the body faces"  For the same reason, talking about the facing of the navel doesn't work.

 

 

post #54 of 58
Thread Starter 

From a rookie's standpoint let's see if I've got this right.

 

Counter rotation is to allow increased angulation. This makes sense because the easiest direction to bend from the hips and waist is forward and it gets more restricted as you bend to the side and back.

 

For those of us who have been keeping our upper body facing slightly downhill of our skis, once the skis pass the fall line during a carve we are in a counter rotation position.  However to achieve counter rotation prior to the fall line I have to change my upper body position from inside to outside.

 

For someone who learned to ski on the outside and downhill ski I have a hard time with the theory that counter is to help you get onto your outside ski.  I have always been on my outside ski with no angulation and really out of balance.  This year trying to do the angulation, angulation seemed to get me over my skis with the result of a more vertical vector of my weight helping to get both my edges to bite. So it gets your skis to bite and not slip, not to get onto the outside ski.

 

 

post #55 of 58

Doesn't angulating also bring your CoM above (or at least closer to above) your skis? Having your CoM closer to the above the outside ski, the more you can pressure that ski without using large muscle groups. The more you angulate, the more pressure you can put on your outside ski.

 

  The other way to put more pressure on your outside ski is banking, which aligns your body vertically and uses the forces (centripital?) created by the turn to put more weight on the outside ski. However, this requires higher speeds to maintain balance, where the amount of angulation can be adjusted based on speed to help with balance, and balance is easier to maintain at a lower speed.

 

  Correct?

post #56 of 58

Hip angulation does not move your COM laterally.  What it does do is help you get your ankle closer to the vector of forces that prevent your ski from trying to hold.  You do not *need* to angulate to weight your outside ski.  However, typically the only reason to put all of your weight on the outside ski is for maximum edge penetration.  The more weight you can place on a ski, the more it penetrates.  The more it penetrates, the closer your ankle moves to the force vector working against it.  The closer your ankle is to the resultant force vector, the less likely you are to have the remaining torque cause your ski to lose its critical edge angle and slip.  Standing on the outside ski without angulation is a weaker position (wrt to holding) than an angulated position.  Angulation, both at the hip and the knee, helps to actually press the edge of the ski deeper into the snow.

 

With narrow skis that are longitudinally softer, and torsionally stiffer, it is often possible to hold with less (or even none) of the above.  But when the going gets really slippery, standing hard on the outside ski and angulating with the hip and maybe even a little knee is the best way to hold an edge.

post #57 of 58

 It is not always necessary to angulate in order to stand on the outside ski, however, it sometimes is necessary to angulate in order to develop a larger edge angle, while also staying in balance on the outside ski.  Otherwise if you banked in to develop the edge angle you would fall to the inside, which is also very common.

 

But I agree with your comments also about how angulation directs forces down your leg to the inside edge in a more effective way to develop better penetration into the snow, for the same reason that proper canting and lifter plates make such a huge difference in this regard.

 

post #58 of 58

Oh Boy.  Things like this are why I gravitate away more and more from using terms while I communicate with skiers and instructors while coaching.  There just isn't any telling what someone's interpretation of a term or drill will cause them to do and if it will garner the desired result.

 

I find being directly specific to the person, situation & body parts far more valuable.

 

There is value in understanding these things though.  But damn, it's like the game "telephone" over decades.

 

To me the orientaion of the upper and lower bodies to each other has 1 purpose: positive or negative Balancing (or Stancing).  It is true that people use, or intend to use it for other purposes.

 

The problem is the myriad of ways people move their bodies to get into a position that you could refer to as "countered."  And that often times the body movements they use to get there are not really the ones that will help them get the job they need done.

 

My other opinion is that one need not move the upper and lower body in opposite directions to achieve it.  In most cases, in fact, when the upper & lower bodies are moved opposite each other it has a tendency to result in balance moving aft and a breakdown in stance.

 

Much like Bob's statement about the body always making direction-positive movements; The upper body and skis are ultimately traveling slightly different lines (or) paths down the mountain, so of course it's better if they each move in "their" direction.  But if they are moving in opposite directions, trouble of some sort will likely ensue, or already has(as in doing it to make a recovery of some kind). Either that or the skier has made an intentional choice to exaggerate the use of counter-rotation and is ready for it.

 

Counter-Rotation, though, is a specific movement pattern this is supposed to create turning forces upon the skis as a result. 

 

Here is an interesting pic.

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007-B/slides/svindal-bc-2006-gs-1.html

 

 

 

 

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