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Carving MA: SL turns at the end of the day (video)

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 

Been working really hard on my SL skiing. Feel free to comment or MA. Snow is piling after beeing skied all day and with ice patches. Im on my trusted Blizzard SL Magnesium. Had to add an special effect to the pickture to make it more exiting.

 

 

 

TDK6

 

 

post #2 of 30

TDK6,

 

I've noticed how much your skiing has improved in the past 2 years.  It as changed to a more modern technique.  Very nice.  What I see is that your timing is a little off in the transition (not much).  Make sure you flatten and start to re-engage your new inside ski before you make the extension.  This will give you a little better position at the top of the turn.

 

RW

post #3 of 30

Try some shorter poles.

post #4 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post

 

TDK6,

 

I've noticed how much your skiing has improved in the past 2 years.  It as changed to a more modern technique.  Very nice.  What I see is that your timing is a little off in the transition (not much).  Make sure you flatten and start to re-engage your new inside ski before you make the extension.  This will give you a little better position at the top of the turn.

 

RW


 

Thanks for your kind words RW. Ive been working hard on some things and its been paying off big time. Im far away from perfect or even half desent but my form and my times have improved a lot during this winter.

 

What you mention in above quote is something that I have been woring on: the relese. I have a tendency pushing off of my outside BTE and not relesing properly but how can I relese earlier if I still need to gain some direction change for making the next gate or if Im freeskiing just cutting some speed and finishing my turns more uphill? Sorry for asking but in embedded video clip, if I had relesed earlier would not my carved turns have been slightly more open and not as tight as they were?

 

Ghost, thanks, I know. I guess I should at least try shorter ones.

 

TDK6

post #5 of 30

TDK,

 

Try to project your pelvis more forward.  Right now your hips are back and you're bending forward at the waist to compensate.

 

 

post #6 of 30

tdk6,

 

Here are some suggestions consonant with the skiing philosophy at another forum you frequent.  Try them out on snow.  If they work, keep them and make them part of your skiing.  If they don't, then toss them out with the trash.

 

1)  Transition:  watch your knees at transition.  The kneecaps come much closer together than the feet and remain relatively closer throughout the arc.  Try rolling the new inside ankle over earlier and much harder than the new outside ankle at transition.  Continue rolling it harder until you release the turn.  In most skiers, this tightens up slalom turns, causes less fatigue, and allows finer control because you control the turn with smaller muscles in a lightly weighted leg.  You can confirm that you've got it right by comparing the gap between your kneecaps and feet on video.  Give it a try for a few hours and see if you like what it does for you.

 

2)  Pole plant:  watch your pole plant just before transition.  You're reaching forward enough that you're pulling your upper body around with the arm.  This causes a loss of energy at the end of your turn.  Your challenge is to learn how to use that arm to block the gates while decoupling its movement entirely from your torso's movement to preseve energy (i.e. stay fully countered late in the turn.)

 

3)  Alignment:  I've read that you've tried out several alignment tweaks in recent years.  You appear to be canted out a bit more on the right leg than the left.  Is this on purpose?  If so, what do you gain from it?

 

Thanks for showing off your skiing by posting video.  It's always interesting to see different poster's individual styles.

post #7 of 30

Standing taller and moving that Hip inline with the outside ski along with more counter will help what few small issues you have. Occasional  "A" framing and perhaps alittle wide in the stance. Good skiing!

post #8 of 30

Hey tdk6, nice skiing.  I can see the results of the work you've been putting in.  Your initiations are very clean, your fore/aft looks better than I remember from earlier videos.  You're using knee angulation to help achieve a high edge angle.  Doesn't necessarily match the cool perfect parallel shin look everyone strives for these days, but it's working for you, and it works for Bode too (he uses knee angulation a lot).

post #9 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

 

TDK,

 

Try to project your pelvis more forward.  Right now your hips are back and you're bending forward at the waist to compensate.

 

 

You are correct, Im bending at the waist but that is a deliberate move. How do I project my pelvis more forward?

post #10 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

 

tdk6,

 

Here are some suggestions consonant with the skiing philosophy at another forum you frequent.  Try them out on snow.  If they work, keep them and make them part of your skiing.  If they don't, then toss them out with the trash.

 

1)  Transition:  watch your knees at transition.  The kneecaps come much closer together than the feet and remain relatively closer throughout the arc.  Try rolling the new inside ankle over earlier and much harder than the new outside ankle at transition.  Continue rolling it harder until you release the turn.  In most skiers, this tightens up slalom turns, causes less fatigue, and allows finer control because you control the turn with smaller muscles in a lightly weighted leg.  You can confirm that you've got it right by comparing the gap between your kneecaps and feet on video.  Give it a try for a few hours and see if you like what it does for you.

 

2)  Pole plant:  watch your pole plant just before transition.  You're reaching forward enough that you're pulling your upper body around with the arm.  This causes a loss of energy at the end of your turn.  Your challenge is to learn how to use that arm to block the gates while decoupling its movement entirely from your torso's movement to preseve energy (i.e. stay fully countered late in the turn.)

 

3)  Alignment:  I've read that you've tried out several alignment tweaks in recent years.  You appear to be canted out a bit more on the right leg than the left.  Is this on purpose?  If so, what do you gain from it?

 

Thanks for showing off your skiing by posting video.  It's always interesting to see different poster's individual styles.

Thanks for your indepth feedback. Ive been working hard on updating my racing technique and apart from current race coaching and camps also pmts has provided me with a lot of helpful stuff and drills.

 

1. This is one of the major areas of focus for me. After relese Im tipping the new inside ski onto its LTE starting with the ancle. This is a new approach for me so whenever the going gets tough I retard to old technique. However, if you look at my very first turn in the clip, turning to the right, you should be able to see correct tipping. Simultaniously Im trying to flex my inside leg as much as possible in order to achieve higher edge angles and pull it back in order to keep good snow contact. If the inside ski is drifting its hard to step onto it after relese. This is something I have not really read anywhere but it seems to be of vital importance.

 

2. Very important issue. But I dont personally think that my arm movement is overly coupled to my other movements. It can act totally independent IMO. Last year I started using my pole plant again after dropping it many years ago when carving. I need to look into this asap. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

3. Until last year all my skiing was done with cero canting. I jumped straight to 2 deg (zermatt) but later in the season backed off half a degree. This year I started out with 1 deg but soon increased it to 1,5 which seems to be a good compromize for SL. Ive had some problems with one boot beeing propelled and to compensate for this I had to use 2 deg canting shim for the toe but cannot remember which foot. I have to check it out when I get home. What makes you think that Im more canted on one foot and which canting do you think is better?

 

Im on a mission to learn how to ski better and using video and posting it on the net is a great way of gaining information and getting good advice. Most of the time posting videos is fun for everybody but the poster. Many times it can become an unpleasent experiance but here at epic I find high MA ethics. Even more important than what you say is how you say it .

 

TDK6

post #11 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

You are correct, Im bending at the waist but that is a deliberate move. How do I project my pelvis more forward?


 

The (adult) way it was described to me once was to "f*ck your turns, don't sh!t them".

 

Don't sit on the toilet. Bring your hips up and forward.

post #12 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 

Hey tdk6, nice skiing.  I can see the results of the work you've been putting in.  Your initiations are very clean, your fore/aft looks better than I remember from earlier videos.  You're using knee angulation to help achieve a high edge angle.  Doesn't necessarily match the cool perfect parallel shin look everyone strives for these days, but it's working for you, and it works for Bode too (he uses knee angulation a lot).

Thanks for your comments. Im not overly conserned with my outside leg knee angulation for many reasons. However, I think that my relese will improve if I can step onto a ski with more edge angle. At least Im trying to save knee angulation for as late as possible in the turn. The reason for this is that knee angulation too early blocks your hips. At the end of the turn its not that important anymore since thats where you want your knees and your hips (the other way arround) in order to crank your knees back again at the beginning of the next turn. At arround apex and shortly after your legs and hips will be aligned properly. This BTW is the mantra of all coaches I have listened to lately. Heavy focus on driving the knees into the turn. Also, if your stance is very wide A-framing is more likely.

post #13 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post

 


 

The (adult) way it was described to me once was to "f*ck your turns, don't sh!t them".

 

Don't sit on the toilet. Bring your hips up and forward.

LOL WTFH.... I like your approach . But in order to do so dont you have to bring your hips back and forth in a repetive motion?
 

post #14 of 30

Yes, but no.

When you realise they are back, then bring them forward!

 

If your skiing is anything like mine, you bring them back and forward a lot in a very short turn that is over in a matter of seconds, then al you want to do is roll over and fall asleep...

post #15 of 30
Thread Starter 
I hear you ... back to the subject... since I retract my legs in the transition my hips are momentarily displaced aft. In order not to end up in the back seat so to speak I keep my upper body folded forward more than I would otherwise and float with minimum pressure on skis due to strong ski rebound effect comming out of previous turn. As I start turning I extend my legs and pull them back underneath me to recenter my hips. Actually only my outside leg since my inside leg remains flexed. I do pull back that inside ski but only to keep it from drifting far forward and to maintain sufficient edge pressure.
post #16 of 30

tdk6

 

Nice skiing!

 

Your post is timely in that i just raced in my first ever Masters slalom last Saturday! In fact that was my first slalom ever and with minimal training. I had not been in gates in 6 years! crazy day as they ran 2 complete races (4 slalom runs on 3 different courses on Saturday. The first course wa chokc full of BS!!!

 

Hairpins, delays (a flush on the steepst part of the course no less) and then believe it or ant a 3 gate corridor intoa 90 degree left footed turn. it was like skiing across the hill from one course to another. Crazy!

 

anyway, Itrained aa couple of hours the previous Saturday and then thursday night the head coachs were there and were very helpfull.

 

I think yu are doing some of what i am working on. Which is not following my skis in transition immediatley after your pole plant. your pole plant is too far forward it needs to be more to the side and then you immediatley employ more upper/lower body separation and get the weight over your new outside ski. very early, The sequence is click the gate reach to side to plant and immediatley employ abit more hip angulation and a little bit of counter.(upper/lower body separation) this subtle move makes your skis and your transition much quicker and almost automatic. it is extremely important to clik the pole and plant as soon as you possibly can after crossblocking the gate.

 

Here is a pretty damn good example of it in the 4th & 5th frame although that looks like a delay she hasis skiing through the movement is the same. because it is a delay she isn't cross blocking the red gate between frames 4 and 5

 

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/slides/schld-aspen-2006-sl-2.html

 

Excellent example is Rocca in the 3rd frame

 

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/slides/rocca-aare-2006-team-sl-web.html

 

Anja Paerson 3rd frame

 

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/slides/paerson-aspen-2005-sl-2-web.html

 

Ted Ligety, 4th frame

 

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/slides/ligety-bc-2005-sl-1b-2-flat.html

 

I have no probelm with your retraction move. And leading with your head is crucial in slalom. Upright in a slalom course is old school. Low and forward (diagonally forward is the key)

 

Does this make any sense?

 

Hope it might help. i am trying to adjust to this myself!

 

 

 

 

 

post #17 of 30
Thread Starter 

Atomicman, thanks a million for your feedback. The pole plant needs some attention, thanks for pointing it out. Your comments regarding early counter needs some explaining. Glad you approve of my forward stance.

 

My focus is on facing down the fall line with my upper body and letting the skis cross back and forth. This way my upper body is anticipated at the top of the turn in the high-C, square at apex and countered in the lower-C. I flex my inside leg aggressively in order to obtain high edge angles and in order not to bank my turns I angulate. Pressure is mainly on my outside ski but I pull back my inside ski to keep some pressure on it as well. My upper body and hips are way inside the arc and my skis go arround the gate, the rest of my body goes on the inside. I try to make big round arcs and start edging well above the gate in the high-C. I flex through the transitions and extend into the turn. Ive made huge progress in gates, have a video up for you guys later.

post #18 of 30

A-man, that strong anticipated postion you're explaining to tdk6 and showing in the montages is what's used to power a pivot entry.  Pivoting is definately a valuable tool in slalom, one that needs to be used pervasively in many courses.  Allows for a straighter line, fills in where carving arc to arc is just not possible, and definiately contributes to amplifying quickness of foot.  Each one of those montages you put up shows a pivot being executed. 

 

It can also be good for arc to arc, as it aids quickness there too,,, just need to be more careful in managing the rotary forces, because it does tend to auto initiate a pivot.  That's why, though you will see this anticipated position in arc to arc turns, it's generally to a toned down degree.

post #19 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

 

A-man, that strong anticipated postion you're explaining to tdk6 and showing in the montages is what's used to power a pivot entry.  Pivoting is definately a valuable tool in slalom, one that needs to be used pervasively in many courses.  Allows for a straighter line, fills in where carving arc to arc is just not possible, and definiately contributes to amplifying quickness of foot.  Each one of those montages you put up shows a pivot being executed. 

 

It can also be good for arc to arc, as it aids quickness there too,,, just need to be more careful in managing the rotary forces, because it does tend to auto initiate a pivot.  That's why, though you will see this anticipated position in arc to arc turns, it's generally to a toned down degree.

My upper body is countered before transition and anticipated after and my skis are arcing. I agree with you that upper body counter kind of sets up a torque between upper and lower body at the end of the turn and at relese when counter becomes anticipation there is a natrural force for pivot but engaging the new edges into edge lock arcing prevents a pivot entry and insted helps fuel the carve into a tighter radius turn. When I ski like this I can get pritty tight carves out of my stiff SL skis.

post #20 of 30

I guess we agree? What I was getting at is not following your skis just prior to and during transition.

 

I have been watching a ton WC slalom on Universal Sports in Slow Mo.

 

The pole plant is done ASAP after clicking the gate and is out to the side not forward. the upper body is then rotated (compared to lower body and feet) wiht a fair amount of hip angulation employed and projected over the outside ski in the direction of the new turn while the skis are still running across the hill.

I don't see how this relates to a pivot entry as no twisting of the feet is present 

100% of the racers employ this almost 100% of the time, except in straighter sections of the course, naturally.

 

What I was getting at tdk6 is you looked as if you were square to your skis and following them in transition and planting straight froward which precludes projecting the upper body in the new direction before the edges have changed.

 

this is not to say I have this down.  I am trying to incorporate this into my skiing. 

 

 

 

Making better sense?

 


Edited by Atomicman - 2/24/2009 at 08:12 pm


Edited by Atomicman - 2/24/2009 at 08:14 pm
post #21 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

I guess we agree? What I was getting at is not following your skis just prior to and during transition.

 

I have been watching a ton WC slalom on Universal Sports in Slow Mo.

 

The pole plant is done ASAP after clicking the gate and is out to the side not forward. the upper body is then rotated (compared to lower body and feet) wiht a fair amount of hip angulation employed and projected over the outside ski in the direction of the new turn while the skis are still running across the hill.

I don't see how this relates to a pivot entry as no twisting of the feet is present 

100% of the racers employ this almost 100% of the time, except in straighter sections of the course, naturally.

 

What I was getting at tdk6 is you looked as if you were square to your skis and following them in transition and planting straight froward which precludes projecting the upper body in the new direction before the edges have changed.

 

this is not to say I have this down.  I am trying to incorporate this into my skiing. 

 

 

 

Making better sense?

 


Edited by Atomicman - 2/24/2009 at 08:12 pm


Edited by Atomicman - 2/24/2009 at 08:14 pm


 

Thanks for your feedback. My gate skiing MA request in the racing forum has not gotten any replies so maybe you want to take look and compare to your above MA of me outside the gates. What is different? Good or bad? Thanks in advance.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4zJjShqihQ

post #22 of 30

That is much better then the freeskiing video. You've got the pole plant and move down really well.

 

I think you should try to roll your inside knee into the hill more particularly at the gate. This will help you get over inside the gates a bit farther and keep your skis tracking more evenly.

 

I think you do a better job of this aspect in the freeskiing video.  Now take that inside knee pointing and take into the course. (easier said then done)

 

Isn't it funny how some things are so easy freeskiing and difficult in the course and others are difficult freeskiing and easier in a course?

 

post #23 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

That is much better then the freeskiing video. You've got the pole plant and move down really well.

 

I think you should try to roll your inside knee into the hill more particularly at the gate. This will help you get over inside the gates a bit farther and keep your skis tracking more evenly.

 

I think you do a better job of this aspect in the freeskiing video.  Now take that inside knee pointing and take into the course. (easier said then done)

 

Isn't it funny how some things are so easy freeskiing and difficult in the course and others are difficult freeskiing and easier in a course?

 

Thanks Atomicman. The pole plant was one reason I posted this video. I think that Im ok with it on the racing track. On the regular pist I need to pay it some serious attention. That inside knee is a downer. Been working on it for a couple of years. If you find a solution, please tell me.

 

Tom

post #24 of 30

Tom, It's just not the pole plant you have more upper lower body separation and hip angulation in transiton and you are not following your skis as in trnasiotn, but are slightly countered into the next turn before edge change

 

One easy drill for the knee thing, is to put your poles down, hands on knees and use your hand to push the knee into the hill. If you want to turn right you push your right knee to the right  and to turn left you push your left knee.

 

Important. let the oppposite leg (the one you are not pushing into the hill) just follow without doing anything intentionally. it will just come along for the ride. This really  helps parallel shafts.

post #25 of 30

Free Ski Drills - Faster Skiing with Frankie Del Duca (includes Schlopy drill variations) http://web.mac.com/kvkayak/iWeb/skiracecoach/Movies.html 

 

F-16
Schlopy - knee
Schlopy - hip
2 hands outside knee with a hail to the chief
Hands on knees - ankle/knee roll
2 pole drag
Free skiing - no poles

 

 

I saw this video in the Movies section of www.ski-race-coach.com.  This website is run by two former US Ski Team coaches (Tom Reynolds & Tim LaVallee).

 

"Free Ski Drills For Better Racing" (includes photos)
 Tim LaVallee
http://web.mac.com/kvkayak/iWeb/skiracecoach/Articles/B3309A42-5CA3-4A67-A20D-01D5C7C20CA5.html

 

F-16
Knee Tea Pot drill
Hip Tea Pot drill
Hands On Knees
Hands X On Knees
Two Hands On Outside Knee
Hail To The Chief
 

 

 

 

Quote:
 

Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

One easy drill for the knee thing, is to put your poles down, hands on knees and use your hand to push the knee into the hill. If you want to turn right you push your right knee to the right  and to turn left you push your left knee.

 

Important. let the oppposite leg (the one you are not pushing into the hill) just follow without doing anything intentionally. it will just come along for the ride. This really helps parallel shafts.


 

 

Atomicman - Are you thinking of the Schlopy - knee drill or one of the other drills shown in the video above?

 

 

TDK6 - You may find this video helpful.  What knee related drills have you tried?


Edited by SkierScott - 2/26/2009 at 01:19 am
post #26 of 30

Nope, none of those drills. those are more for hip angulation.

The fdrill I was talking about is much simpler. It's just to get the inside knee working into the hill and working on matching edge angles.

post #27 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

Tom, It's just not the pole plant you have more upper lower body separation and hip angulation in transiton and you are not following your skis as in trnasiotn, but are slightly countered into the next turn before edge change

 

One easy drill for the knee thing, is to put your poles down, hands on knees and use your hand to push the knee into the hill. If you want to turn right you push your right knee to the right  and to turn left you push your left knee.

 

Important. let the oppposite leg (the one you are not pushing into the hill) just follow without doing anything intentionally. it will just come along for the ride. This really  helps parallel shafts.

Thanks for the thumbs up. Yes, I have tried to tip with my inside foot and not with my outside foot. Trying not to drive that outside knee in.

post #28 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkierScott View Post

TDK6 - You may find this video helpful.  What knee related drills have you tried?
 

Thanks for the list of drills and the links. I dont really like the ones where you push your knees with your hands since IMO it feels as if I start resisting the applied force and the result is the opposite. Maybe I should try pushing it outwards insted . Im basicly trying to activate my legs with their own muscles and in the gates I try to aim for inside the gate with my inside knee.

post #29 of 30
I HAVE HEARD PRETENDING TO CLENCH A COIN IN YOUR BUNS ALSO HELPS THE HIPS STAY FORWARD.
post #30 of 30

TDK6.  Awesome skiing.  So great to see an accomplished skier working so hard at getting better too.  I don't know if I could really explain in writing what I have to say about HOW you could get better, and I do see you have gotten some specific feedback from this, but I have some observations you might consider looking at.

 

I was looking at the ronlemaster images and comparing them to your skiing videos.

 

Two things I see that differ.

 

Ski performance:

Very little, if any diverging of the skis at and after the gate in the lemaster images.

Your skis tend to diverge from middle thru end of turns (somewhat less in your gate-skiing video, but a lot of those turns were straighter than the non-gate skiing. could see some evidence that it might have happened in some of the turnier turns, but couldn't see the skis in those turns)

 

Stance/movements:

In the lemaster images, I looked at the relationship between the skiers' feet, hips & upper body at, or close to, the gate.  Stacked is what I see, so the skiers' body mass is moving forward through end of the turn.  The skiers' bodies and limbs are very long at that point, in a forward sense.  Lateral poistioning of body mass/feet was set before the gate

 

You show some similarity in this which I think is great, But it looks like your body length at this same point is more lateral in movement than the lemaster image skiers, causing your body mass to move slightly inside at a point critical to how ski design continues to work for turn shape.

 

That inward movement could be the cause of the diverging inside ski,

That inward movement could also be what causes people to see your hips behind our feet as being different from the hips behind the feet look the lemaster skiers show  Their body mass being propelled forward with the skis as they continued to change direction until they chose to transition

 

I think you have gotten some good feedback, esp in the Tipping of the knees in the middle of turns/at gate.  I also think an adjustment in stance during the middle arcing point of the turn will be what gives you access to making these movements, and bring about some big changes in your ability to time your directional movements more down the line you want ot ski.

 

Hope you find this helpful.  Good luck and keep up the great skiing.

 

 

 

 

 

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