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Is this the use for a two footed carve?

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
I'm in the middle of my christmas camp and I've mostly had the kids skiing GS. Today I figured that they were starting to look good enough to start training SL. So i took out my P50 SL's (163) to get a feel for SL before I taught it.

Now for the most part I feel pretty good, except when I get onto the flats. When I try to crank a really hard turn on the flats it feels like someone slammed the emergancy brake on. My skis just slow right down towards the mid to end phase of the turn.

I've felt this before in soft spring snow but this is hard pack boardering on ice.

I was thinking that I might be digging in too much. Is this where a two footed carve would help?

P.S. I will be in Le Massif on the 3rd and 4th.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 31, 2001 01:40 PM: Message edited 1 time, by MattW ]</font>
post #2 of 13
"crank a hard turn on the flats"???????

A few quick thoughts to stir things up. Rotate first before you edge or pressure the skiis. Especially on the flats. If you are "cranking", why such a sharp turn on the flats? Whoever set up the course may have been legal, but not nice. Slalom is finesse and speed.

In another thread, there was talk of "fast feet". This and railroad tracks should be used. Get them on edge, FAST. No slidding into the turn, so rotate in a leg retraction (upunweighting/rebonding)then hard edge set.

Practice wedgehops. Hard on the legs, but you get use to hard edges and holding it! A variation is the "Charleston". An old ski term, but it is edge hops on the uphill edge of the uphill ski only. Great for edging, balance, and recovery while still holding an edge.

Good luck with your camp.
post #3 of 13
Teaching young kids early that both inside and outside feet have defiinate roles is just part of the foundation they should be learning. If you watch the kids that are only outside ski orientated, you may see them carving a pretty good arc with it but the inside ski track leaves a skid mark as it drags passively along on a lower edge angle. That is no doubt slower than both skis slicing clean lines. When the inside foot is engaged in rolling/tipping throughout the entire arc (even when light) the edge angles can be equal so that the outside ski doesn't have to bulldoze the inside around the corner. This role should just be a continuation and follow through from releasing the previous turn by rolling the old outside foot over to it's little toe side to lead the edge change. The better a skier/racer gets the more they always ski with coordination of activities of both feet, even when one is in the air.

Maybe more simply expressed by the retorical question: When would you not want to be doing something specific with the inside foot? (answer: never, duh)

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 31, 2001 08:39 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Arcmeister ]</font>
post #4 of 13
if the inside/uphill ski is the safety ski, why should it be bearing weight & pressure?

call me a dinosaur, but I really think good race carves are outside-dominant and the inside ski is just "along for the ride"

I believe that the smearing caused by the inside ski is not scrubbing speed, because the properly pressured outside ski should be returning energy & speed that outweigh the smearing.

any takers?
post #5 of 13
Matt- Sounds to me like you may be over countered and not moving with you short arcing ski, this will cause you to slow or brake instead of moving with the ski and keeping your speed and flow through the turn. As for the 2 footed carve, I would say yes this would be a good place to incorparate this activity but remember the inside leg does not need to be carrying alot of pressure, just enough to engage the edge and pull the outside ski through the turn. The outside ski is still receives the majority of the pressure developed by the turn radius and you standing AGAINST it.
post #6 of 13
Thread Starter 
I think that Todo might have it as I'm trying to load the ski so much and as a result am just sitting on it at the end of the turn.

I'm just playing around and trying new things, so I could be doing a number of strange things. I think I'll should still get one of my collegues to take a look at me.

Gonzo, don't mistake me for one of those two footed carving fanatics. Before all that talk of two footed skiing started here I was a outside ski skier and I still am, I just thought that this might be a situation where it could be used.

Arc, I had alot of skiers carving beautifully on their out side ski but had their inside skidding in a sort of reverse snowplow. I had them open up their stance and the second ski fell into place.

Anyway thanks all. Happy new year.

P.S. Le Massif fell through I'm now going to Jay on the 3rd and 4th. If anyone is going to be there let me know. I'd like to put some faces to the name tags
post #7 of 13
Just a quickie - I would say the idea of "THE" use for a two footed carve is a bit deceptive because there is not just one use. Carving on both skis, just the outside ski, or even just the inside ski . . . all are useful tools.
post #8 of 13
When racing, two footed skiing on the flats is essential. Set a 4 to 6 gate coarse on the flats (nothing to technical) then time your kids using knee angulation in an A-frame style of skiing. The second run have them ski it using matching edge angles (two footed skiing/railroad tracks) then compare the results. If the second run is skied correctly there is no doubt in my mind that it will be the faster of the two.
To become proficant at this and many other new methods of skiing one should be able to do them free skiing first. Only after mastering them free skiing should one try them in a coarse. I would also like to warn people not to over use the knees when two foot skiing. A wide stance, hip, a driving down hill hand, retraction of the up hill ski, and a little knee for fine tuning should be the elements involved in two footed sking. Its not all in the knees.

post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 
Cera F I completly agree with what you said. I really should have titled this "is this the use for equal pressure". I'm not argueing for any a-frame or inside skidded turns.
post #10 of 13

I guess I should have said a couple more things or at least stated them differently.

One, flats are a great place to take full advantage of two foot sking.

Second, A-Framing is starting to become a thing of the past, but, I still see some cases where conditions call for it.

Third, A-Framing is a great way for young kids to experience carving and weight transfer.

With the advent of shaped skis comes the advent of new technique to compliment our new equipment. However, this doesn't meen that the things we learned from straight skiing are wrong, no, they have just been modifide a little.

Technique is everything. Speed and line will come as technique improves.
post #11 of 13

Yes, the outside ski will be dominate, more or less, based on terrain, speed, and turn shape. The main role of the outside leg and ski is to provide primary stance and balance function as turn dynamics naturally move more weight to it. You mis-interpret if you think I would suggest otherwise. However, a passive 'just along for the ride' inside ski is indicitive of a lesser skilled skier, not only in racing but free skiing as well. Many rec skiers get tripped up in soft or ungroomed snow because their passive inside ski is not being 'skied' with a purpose. If it is not working for you, it is working against you. A racer with a passive inside foot/leg/body half that is not leading through the arc is using the outside leg and ski to bulldoze it around the corner (wasted energy = slower). If you watch better racers (WC) you will see most of them showing parallel lower leg shafts and close to equal edging of both skis, regardless of weight distribution. This cannot result from a passive 'just along for the ride' inside foot/leg, but one that is activily engaged in leading the edging activity of both feet/skis.

I expect that when (or if) the gang I race against figures some of these things out that I'll lose some of my technical advantage that still allows me to be toe-to-toe competitive in GS with our fastest young guns in their 20's (I'm nearly 54). But then I'm still learning, it has been 7-8 years since I skied like they do now. I'm not sure if they share my approach to learning though......
post #12 of 13
Matt, did you look on the web to make sure they offer that ski in that size. The reason you kill you're speed on the flat is because slalom skis make tight turns. A two footed technique will give you safety in case you lose your outside edge, but your still making a tight turn on flat terrain, and you will kill your speed either way. Good story about the kids.
Try this drink, I call it the squirrel, mix Kahlua with chocolate milk, heat it up and drink it.
post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 
Iam, you went digging for posts today didn't you. I didn't think I'd see this one come back.

Anyway, I still don't know what I was doing that day, all I know is that I haven't had the problem since.

As for two footed carving(or equal weight distribution), I think I'll leave it to someone else to debate. For now I've made up my mind.

I'm of the school that all pressure should be on the outside ski. The only reason the inside ski follows and carves is because it is at the same angle as the outside. It is the result of your body positioning( ie your skis being outside your body), and good stance.

I'll give the squirrel a try next party I'm at [img]smile.gif[/img] .


P.S. I have some kind of race stock verson of the P50 SL so that might expalin the length, however I'm pretty sure that it is a production lenght as well.
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