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Try something new!

post #1 of 60
Thread Starter 
Sitting here with Elway. He has a bone, I have a keyboard.

Alright. PMTS camps are on for this year. And, ABasin is going to be teaching it. That's right folks, ABasin. Word is out that Vail and Beaver Creek are watching very closely.

You need to learn this stuff. I promise, you won't be sorry. You'll improve so much faster. Lisamarie, dchan, ryan, and MilesB come to mind right away. You only have so much time to ski, right? Well, then don't you want to improve as fast as possible? Of course you do.

Don’t think you can learn just from the books or videos. Buy them, then find a certified instructor where you are and spend at least 3 days with them. If you can't find one, maybe one will come to you. Or, come out to Colorado. You can hang out with me and SnoKarver. We can put together a few certified PMTS instructors and have our own camp. It'll be a blast.

But you have to learn this stuff. You're motivated - the archetypical PMTS student. This system was made for people like you!

What do you have to lose? The worse that’ll happen is you’ll learn something new, have a lot of fun, and your skills will improve. The best that’ll happen is you'll break into a whole new world of skiing. My bet is the latter.

So, who’s in?
post #2 of 60
Thread Starter 

Someone comes along and all you want to do is pee on their parade.
post #3 of 60
I'd expect skiing with him to be INTERESTING. After more than 50 years of skiing, including more than 30 of teaching, I don't know if I'd see/learn anything really new or different.

Riding the chairlift might be scary, though.
post #4 of 60
then again, one could just show up and decide for oneself...

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[This message has been edited by ryan (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #5 of 60
give it a rest. You don't know what kind of a skier I am and how much I know so please don't presume to think I need to "learn" PMTS. I am quite happy with my progress and where I am. There is always more to learn but to assume that I don't already have a lot of the "primary movements" already ingrained in my skiing is being awfully arrogant of you. I think I'll leave that assesment up to an instructor with a lot more experience than you with only 140 days on the snow and what seems to be very little understanding of the mechanics of what you do that helped you get where you are. I'm with BobB on this one. Give me more to make an informed decision other than "it worked for me". I'm glad it worked for you. lets Leave it at that.
post #6 of 60

Seriously, Bob makes a good point. What do you suggest is new? You are the one who posted the thread. You need to support your claims. Please be so kind as to let us know exactly what you herald as "new".

By your own admission you've been skiing for a relatively short time. The folks you have engaged have exponential experience.

I will offer you a quote from a famous text, "That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will de done, and there is nothing new under the sun."
post #7 of 60
SCSA's argument in a nutshell:

1. Someone opened a door for me and I'm really, really excited about it.

2. Therefore, everyone must go through that same door to get to the same place I'm in.

SCSA, there is more than just one door available, although many here would say your door is like a dog-door to their door. SCSA should work more on his ability to see things from different perspectives than trying win converts. Reminds me of Marxists and Fundamentalists: everything (and everyone) must be reduced to his world.

Rob<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by rob (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #8 of 60
Is it just possible there are many paths to "enlightenment"? Awful lot of Extreme Skiing, World Cup & other champions who didn't study PMTS.

You simply can't understand that we are not saying PMTS cannot produce great skiers - we are saying there are LOTS of ways of producing great skiers.
post #9 of 60
Thread Starter 
I totally agree that there are other ways to becoming a great skier.

I'm just saying that this is a great way and I think you'd all should try it. And, I think there's a few people here who are ideal for it.

It's funny. You all say that I should try different things and that skiing is about different methods. But you don't practice what you preach and you type with forked key.

I ask you to try this out and you won't do it - won't even consider it. Hypocritical? Contradictory? I think so.
post #10 of 60
Thread Starter 

I saw your video.
post #11 of 60
Thread Starter 

You instructors here. Not one of you is certified, has been to a camp, yet you have all these preconceived notions. Most of which couldn't be further from the truth.

This is why your students don't learn anything and why you're lousy teachers. Because you refuse to learn or teach them anything new. You're cheating each and every one of your students.

Lisamarie goes to fitness seminars every year - she's trying to find out what's new so she can be better at what she does. But no, not you guys. "Skiing is different, nothing ever changes". If I was running the show, the first thing I'd do is fire you.

You owe it to your students to take a course and see for yourself. At least then you could make a qualified decision. Instead, you read a few pages in his book and you throw the book against the wall, "Harald is picking on me!". He's not picking on you, he's challenging you to become better instructors!

Then, you come to forums like this and rag on him. It's unconscionable.

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #12 of 60
This is gonna get interesting.
post #13 of 60

I don't know if your last post was directed to me or not. But I am not an instructor. I'm just a skier who reads posts here. My last response was to the form of your argument which contains a basic logical fallacy.

If you want instructors to take different training because that different training worked so well for you, then I think, aside from logic, you have an uphill battle.

I have a little test for you. Next time you visit your doctor, tell her that you went to this really great medical clinic in the South Seas and they really, really helped you. When you asked about their training, you found out that they didn't go to atraditional medical school, but had received a degree in PMST (Phantom Medical School Training). And then tell your doctor "Hey, you should go the PMST; it's much better training than that MD degree and you can get trained much more quickly." When she refuses, call her a number of names like "clone" or "drone."

Let me know what happens.

Rob<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by rob (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by rob (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by rob (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #14 of 60
maybe. there are a couple ways it could go but if history is an indicator, not really. it'll be the same old dynamic. i'm personally not so sure what harm could be done by taking a look at something. it COULD be that the camps DO offer variations of valuable technique-teaching. (isn't it ALL variations of something else?) it COULD prove valuable to SOMEone, or many, and show only that scsa's passion and success with the program are NOT the best PR agents for the system.

interesting a-basin'll hold it. one thing i noticed during my one day there last april was the preponderance of older model skis. a lot of straights, a lot of "relics." <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by ryan (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #15 of 60
Ryan: I actually meant this post could get interesting. Calling all the instructors on this board losers. Should go over well... good way to make friends and influence people. Zealotry of this nature pushes me away from PMTS, not to it. I don't think there's any one way to ski, and it's always good to have more tricks in my bag, so there's always something to learn.
post #16 of 60
JR has this really interesting thread on hyperchange, called Zealots, Cynics and Philosophers. Supposedly, in a discussion, people lean towards any of those 3 roles.

Scsa, you are similar to me in some ways, t It is therefore logical that in the past we have been at each others throats.

Thank you for noting that I am dedicated to my industry. But in the past, when I have returned from many of these events, I have made some SERIOUS mistakes in the way I approached my co-workers.

Because at heart, like you, I am a zealot. But when one is too much of a zealot, it inspires the cynics to be at their most cynical. So when I come back from a conference, and say to my co-workers "Teaching crunches is a useless waste of time and if you still teach them you are a clueless dinosaur", I should not be surprised that no one listens to me.

Age has made me more of a philosopher. In order to educate people about new things, I need to expand the field of reference, and work with people from where they are, not from where I would like them to be.

Yeah, and there will always be someone who will throw the piece of cr*p line at you. One day I will learn not to over react, and simply ignore people of questionable maturity levels. There are so many people who truly do want to learn.

Sometimes, when I look at the current trends in the fitness industry, I get a bit teary eyed. Heck! I had some of these ideas a long time ago. But my way of presenting them was a bit overzealous, so nobody listened.

With a different approach and attitude, I could have been a pressenter at these conferences, rather than an attendee.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #17 of 60

Not this again? How many time do I have to chew my cud.


post #18 of 60
you saw the video and.....?

I have looked at the PMTS book and video, I have also looked at Lito's camps and seen his videos many times as well as I've read his books as well. I'm not saying I wouldn't learn something, I said I'm happy with my progress. I know what needs fixing at this point. Can you pick out what I was doing "wrong" in my video and tell me exactly what to do to fix it? I have had several responses from instructors that have and I agree with their assesment. Fixes and flaws by the way I figured out by myself after finally seeing myself ski. I have taken a few lessons since that time to have someone work on some specific things. A lot now comes down to is a 3-5 day camp really worth the time and money for me? for where I am and what I have found out from my friends some of who are not as good skiers as I am and that have been to a camp all tell me it's good but maybe money/time is better spent at this point in very focused privates or clinics..

That's about all I have to say about this. Please stop the attacks and work on the merits instead.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #19 of 60
Wow SCSA, that's some mighty juicy bait you just tossed over the transom. I'm a lousy instructor, huh? Damn, I'm glad you were here to tell me that. None of the thousands of students or hundreds of other instructors I've skied with ever told me that. But then, I guess they all suck too, since none of them were ever trained in PMTS, huh? And here I thought I WAS going to seminars and learning new stuff every year. I must have been hallucinating.

I have to wonder how hard you are laughing as you type things like "This is why your students don't learn anything and why you're lousy teachers.". I've trained a good portion of the instructors at my ski area, and they ski better than 106% of the population and better than 200% of the SCSAs. I wonder how that happened?

You're in the computer field and own your own business, right? NOW I know why the dot.com industry is failing and the economy is in the tank! It's being run by people with your ability for logic and reason.

FWIW, SCSA, I do have the PMTS instructor manual, and no, there is nothing new there. Most of it was "new" a long time ago, and some of it was outdated more than 10 years ago. Other parts of it are current, and were introduced the same time as every non PMTS instructor became aware of it, a few years ago. And, certainly, in 2001, NOTHING in it is new. Well, except maybe to you since you are new to skiing.

It's like a cave man coming out of his cave in 2001 and watching "Survivor", and now preaching how wonderfully easy it is to start a fire using a couple of sticks and some kindling, because he was never able to start a fire in his cave. He doesn't seem to realize we have matches, lighters, liquid fuels, etc. Everyone tells him that rubbing sticks together is nothing new, but he just doesn't get it. "You really need to get certified in stick rubbing!!" he keeps yelling.
post #20 of 60
Honey, check the map!...I think we've been down this road before!
post #21 of 60
I have tried to remain neutral on this for some time, looking at as a sick joke, but buddy you gotta quit these blanket attacks. Calling the members of this board lousy teachers? have you ever taken a class from even one of these guys? So as you have been putting it don't knock it till you try it. What was that line from Bambi that we all remember as kids..."If you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all"

I wrote this in May and it is still relevant for yet again another PMTS debate. Most instructors will hopefully agree with this.
This whole thing about both teaching methods being completly seperate and against each other is nuts. Both teach skiing and have a common goal of getting the general public out on the hill having fun. As mentioned above different methods work for different folks, you cannot tell me that one way will work for everyone, like a blanket fix, it ain't gonna happen. As an instructor I try to take in all the info, drills, skills, and techniques I can, regardless of what teaching style/school it came from. When your on the hill teaching a class or individual you teach to their needs, whatever they may be. By using methods from all areas you have the opportunity to show the student a skill in a bunch of different ways, hopefully one of which works. (If not GLMF and give em a push.)
post #22 of 60
I've been reading these PMTS threads for awhile now, from the perspective of a first-year skier with one set of 8, 2-hr lessons under the belt. I've thought about my experience this year in light of all of this, and tried to separate actual facts about PMTS from the personalities of its founder and disciples. Some (my inexperienced opinion only) comments.

What was good about my "traditional" lessons. Well, they took me in 16 hrs of instruction (and little in-between practice) from a total novice, in terror of slopes, to the point where I could ski green and blue and some easy black runs and have fun. I can now generate some speed with confidence, keep my skis parallel through most of my turns, and carve at least part of each turn. That was value for the money and time well-spent.

The negatives that PMTS is responding to. The lessons never seemed to have an explicit goal. Going down the bunny slope in a wedge; was the point to get down the hill alive, to learn the effect of weighting and edging on turns, or what? What was the long-term goal: keeping the skis parallel, carving rather than skidding, speed, or what? From the students' point of view, the lessons were fun, efficient, enjoyable. But they were unlike most "courses" in the world, because it was never clear what your goal was, nor how to get there. There was no "homework", and no between-lessons material. It had the feel more of "ski a bit with the instructor watching, and listen to him tell you things you did wrong and how to fix them". PMTS has really filled this gap. You have a goal, and a clearly defined path to get there. You have things to think about when you're warm. Does it work? I don't know, I've never tried it. Is it wrong in assuming there is only one way to get "there"? Almost certainly. But it's existence in at least a semi-successful way means that is was responding to a real gap.

I think traditional PSIA-based ski instruction would benefit by responding in several ways. First, make the goals clear to the students. Maybe centerline does this, but I certainly never heard the term or was told those skills. Maybe standardizing the presentation at the start of beginning lessons could be one goal. Second, break down the path to those skills into steps and tell the students what those steps are, and what exercises will get them there. The key here is to stay consistent to the idea that there are many paths to these goals, and different ones may work better for different students. Why not just say that, and give a bit more information to students like: "We would like you to turn with skis parallel and carving at least a portion of the turn on a gentle slope. Here are three sequential levels of exercises to achieve that goal, each level has four alternate ways of achieving this aim, lets try them and see which works best for you. Etc., etc.

I can see that PSIA is not a teaching system, and is probably too decentralized to dictate this, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to consider moving all high-quality ski instruction that direction a little. Maybe that would pick up alot of students who drop out because either they think they're higher up the ladder of skills than they are, or who don't see clearly how the next level of instruction will continue on a known path of development.

My plan for next winter to incorporate these ideas? I think I'll skip the group lessons (can't afford them anyway; I'll use the bucks for my daugher) and just ski. I will try to learn to carve turns on fairly gentle slopes. I'll certainly try the "phantom move" to do this. But I'll also try to imitate some skiers and photos I've seen, where good skiers really seem to release their bodies, look down the hill, and "want to go there" rather than just facing along the line of the skis and hoping they'll turn. I'll try to learn how to stay balanced and more upright. As the season goes along, I'll probably try to take a private or semi-private lesson with my old instructor, and see if we can set some explicit goals together. We'll see. I'll probably change my mind next week.
post #23 of 60


What do you have to lose? The worse that’ll happen is you’ll learn something new, have a lot of fun,
and your skills will improve. The best that’ll happen is you'll break into a whole new world of skiing.
My bet is the latter



You still have not answered our question. Please tell us what is "new to learn" and I would like to hear you expand on the "whole new world of skiing".

I will say this. I skied with my boots locked together, pivoting on the sweet spot of my skis, and skidded every turn from 1968 to 1990. I really don't want to do that ever again.

Remember, I saw the show live and in person.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Rusty Guy (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #24 of 60
Scientist Bill,

I outline goals and give "homework". I feel fairly certain many of my peers do as well.
post #25 of 60
Ah. Maybe I should have taken lessons from you. Excellent. And proves the fallacy of generalizing from limited experience, doesn't it? I wonder what the "average" lesson is like for a beginner like me. Like my experience was: good but could see it being better; worse; better, like yours are?

In defense of my experience (not that it needs much defense), our instructor know that he had adults from 35-50 years old; two doctors, one scientst, one single mom with a disabled child, etc. Maybe he knew we weren't going to ski between lessons, and for that reason put everything into the lesson time itself and didn't depend on us doing any "homework". Who knows?
post #26 of 60
Advertising ....... cheap hawking of a product.

That's all this is, a cheap no cost ad for PMTS. The point about having the exact same e-mail address was an interesting point. Do the two of you share socks and skivvies too?

Regarding your original...... genesis.... of Wacko... My kid was tossed into three private lessons...... Instructors with no certifications, at hills no one ever heard of. Guess what..... he could probably ski circles around you.

Your point is...... you have no point! Keep that product in the public eye..... as long as it doesn't cost a dime. You're a real marketing wizzard Wacko boy.

Jeezus Keeeeerist Edith..... and Amway salesman with and edge. Look meathead, take old Elway's bone and put it where the sun don't shine and take that key board and play my favorite song.....

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by yuki (edited July 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #27 of 60
HA! yuki!!!! I love it!!!
post #28 of 60

Sheesh! Don't get me wrong SCSA, I think Primary Movements has some merit, but It's not the only way to ski either. Bits and Pieces from it, Bits and Pieces from some others, and your own natural demeanor on skis is what makes you "good".

I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing directly AT you. I happen to think I'm a pretty damn good instructor. Victor Sierra Foxtrot.
post #29 of 60

Once, a long time ago, during my drunk college/racing years - a friend pointed out that if a bunch of people thought I was acting like a jerk, but I thought THEY were all being jerks . . . where does the simple probability reside here? I was the only non-jerk and the other 100 were all scumbags? Doubful.

The simple fact is that that no matter what you change your name too (Paul) - that you end up making everybody else angry.

Because according to you we are all deluded and only YOU, out of all of us, see the *truth*!

The probability is against it dude.

Believe it or not, I promise that many of us understand much more about the mechanics of PMTS than you do (some of us do make our LIVING at this full time).

And yet for you its all or nothing, we must embrace your messiah 100%, or we are fools.

What you continue to not get is that: we WANT to discuss the options every system presents. But we DON'T want to be told that there is *only one way*.

We enjoy discussing various options, we are open to various possibilities . . . but not open to being told we are fools if we don't see things ONE way.

I recommend you find another forum completely. You have burned your bridges here over and over. I would wholeheartedly endorse the usegroup rec.alt.skiing I think you'll find you fit right in there.

~Todd M.
post #30 of 60
I'm not angry.....
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