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.Please make your disgust known Sugarloaf and its Corporate Parent, Boyne - Page 2

post #31 of 51

Wannabe - I think we have to respect that the 'blind' here is willing to be led.  I don't know how long the leading may take, or where they may end up, but I'm willing to let them go to it.

 

On another note, if they could not even find all the offensive posts to delete (on their own site), I somehow doubt they 'tracked him down' based on this particular post.  I suspect that management, and most everyone else in the know there, were fully aware of who this person was, and had no difficulty looking his name and phone number up on the season pass form.

 

Finally, as has been noted, both the person that lost his pass, and the resort, have indicated they are talking, and attempting to resolve the issue.  I have no skin in the game, and being so far away, I would be happy for billyymc to get his pass, but let's let them act like adults (as they seem to be trying to do), and maybe resolve this thing.

post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wannabe View Post

Mr. Kircher has posted, in so many words, that he doesn't even know the whole story.  Sounds like the blind leading the blind...not very professional.

 

That would be my understanding of the situation.  The other troubling bit is that Kircher is going around redacting statements without explanation and generally trying to cover up his recent hissy-fit on the intertubes.

post #33 of 51

Jimmy P - do you think there would be any talking going on between the parties if there hadn't been a public outcry about the whole thing?  I don't...based on management's initial posts trying to tell the public they were wrong and threatening further action if the public doesn't get in line.  They have been in backpedal mode since then...even to the point of going back and editing out the most stupid parts of their initial posts on some forums.  Now it looks like the gentleman in question is going to get his pass back...

 

So, yeah, some of the public outcry has been very childish, but it has resulted in management apparently finally acting like adults...so I think we all win.  And yes, you do have skin in the game...corporations watch these things when they impact other corporations and modify their behavior to avoid the same problems.  It's better to nip these things in the far-away bud, than wait till they happen in your back yard.

 

Oh...on the "couldn't delete posts" point...I'm fairly sure that the particular article that has that tidbit in it is satire and not factual...

post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyymc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag View Post

 

Copied off - SugarloafToday.com

 

After the Minister convincingly argued that he wholeheartedly supported the First Amendment Right to Free Speech, Costello promptly exercised that support by informing Mr. Zipe that “his kind” was no longer welcome...

 

It's funny how people equate free speech with speech without responsbility or consequences.

 

It sounds like the guy who got his pass pulled was an ass for a long time, and finally said something that got a reaction IRL.  Imagine that...people getting called out for remarks on a chat board. 

 

I'd like to see what forums would look like if the veil of anonymity were stripped away.


 

Right.  If you shout "Fire" in a movie theater and somebody gets trampled to death in the crush to exit the building, you do jail time for manslaughter.  "Free Speech" in the constitution is the freedom to express political views.

 

In a small local user group like Sugarloaf, nobody is really anonymous.  Ski resort-specific message boards are really social networking sites and virtually everybody knows everybody in real life after a few years.  This was a case where a keyboard bully got the dope slap he deserved.  The unfortunate part was where a Boyne employee generalized the threat to everybody else on the message board.  That was really stupid.  Those are your most passionate customers.  You don't want them to turn on you.

post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post

 

 

* Some poor Sugarloaf employee has to go to the hospital to be greeted by a corpse.  He has to notify the family.  He has to deal with the press who obviously asked him what the conditions were.  That's a brutally shitty job that I don't think any of us would want to deal with.

 

* The story makes the papers.  Because it's a Mountain School racer, it gets 6 inches of print instead of the usual 2 sentences.  Several outlets include the line of text where a Sugarloaf official says the conditions were fine.

 

It's not "obvious" to me that he  was simply responding to reporters' questions about the conditions.

To me it's obvious that Boyne intentionally released a statement so that it would be included in the article about the incident. Not only to deflect any possible blame and responsibility for the tragedy, but also to prevent the loss of potential customers concerned about dangerous conditions.

 

 

"The accident was not related to the conditions," Austin said. "She lost control of her skis."

 


The guy who got his pass pulled referred to that quote and stated his opinion that Boyne was concerned about the impact that this tragedy could have on its revenue.

 

I happen to agree with him. Posting it in a thread where the tragedy was being discussed was inappropriate.

 

But the original statement by the Boyne mouthpiece was far more inappropriate and offensive. The draconian action of tracking down the poster and banning him from Boyne properties; followed by the pathetically ham handed, condescending, and insulting response from Steve Kircher only made matters worse.

 

Boyne is within their rights to run their properties as they see fit. But they reap what they sow. They are getting flooded with phone calls, letters and emails from skiers and boarders who are furious at their actions. They are losing a significant amount of business as a direct result of this. Personally, I ski at least a couple of days at Sunday River every year. Not this year. And rest assured that none of the days on my SLC Superpass will be used at Brighton, either. I just can't tolerate the thought of any of my hard earned $$$ ending up in the pocket of Steve Kircher.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #36 of 51

 

Sugarloafers & others,
 
Yes, I did modify my post on sugarloaftoday.com after I reread it and realized it did not read as I had intended and I apologize for making such a reckless error. (yes, I understand that some will call me out on this but those who really know me know this is the truth)
 
What I meant in long form was that, since our team members are frequent readers of the sugarloaftoday site and others like it, it is our intent to garner constructive feedback from those forums, and in the long run non constructive commentary -- by human nature is likely not be taken to heart and is less effective in garnering change.
 
Therefore, this nonconstructive feedback would likely not be used by members of our team as one of our valuable feedback loops. I have seen that firsthand since Boyne Resorts became involved in the East and now understand why the ASC “don’t engage with folks on those forums” policy – seemed to be less effective at moving toward common goals and developing mutual understanding.
 
As a company we read (and participate in) in forums as just one of our guest touch points. We also frequently interact using many other means including satisfaction surveys and direct contact such as meeting with as well as socializing with guests and key stakeholders. The constructive feedback is almost always acted upon.
 
Follow-up From My Commitment To Investigate The Season Pass Situation:
After further discussion with the Sugarloaf team, it became clear since my last post, that it was the emotional attachment to the trauma resulting from the accident were the catalysts for the pass suspension. It was not their intent to suppress free speech.
 
The team was wrong to allow posted comments or such emotion to play a part in their decision to revoke skiing privileges and acknowledge that both, along with past issues, clouded their judgment in this case. Our 60 year track record shows Boyne Resorts has not desired to suppress feedback or negative comments and this was the first of our resorts that I am aware of to have an occurrence of this nature. We always endeavor to engage in constructive dialogue with our customers and will continue to do so in the future. I again apologize for any inference to the contrary in my earlier post.
 
You should also know that the resort team did not issue a press release regarding the accident. It was in the course of a several minute interview answering specific questions about that tragic day. One of those questions was a direct question about the trail condition. We regret not being more sensitive when choosing words used in response to the reporter’s question and then ultimately to Matt (vonzipe/exiled) in the ensuing conversation about the post regarding the quote.

Meeting Results:
I am also pleased to have learned; that Jim Costello (the director of sales and marketing for Sugarloaf) and Matt did meet to work out the issues between them. As a result of that meeting they did indeed find reconciliation and reached common ground, Matt is now fully back in the Sugarloaf family. I also know that the team has learned from these recent interactions and are working toward a fresh start and toward a brighter future for Sugarloaf.
 
I personally want to personally and on behalf of Boyne Resorts apologize to Matt o for the consternation that he has endured and thank him for his objectivity and maturity while working through this matter in the past several days.
 
It is my sincere belief that the team at Sugarloaf and by association, the entire Boyne Resorts team, has learned a lasting lesson to better measure our actions when dealing in these scenarios. We will be and already are a better company for it.
 
I have been told by many industry colleagues not to avoid engaging in these communication mediums, but I still have the belief that interacting in this manner can be helpful in building a bridge between owners and customers and can assist in making us all better in the end.
 
As a family owned company we respectfully request your forgiveness for this impactful incident that was exacerbated by our team’s initial reaction and my lack of sensitivity in some of my comments.
 
Hopefully, we can put this behind us and all go out and enjoy our local ski area this weekend.
 
Respectfully,
 
SK
post #37 of 51

Sounds like mistakes were made on both sides in reaction to a tragic event.  It's good to hear that the parties involved have gotten together and worked things out.  It would have compounded the initial mistakes to blindly defend them instead of admitting them, working it out, and moving on.

 

A while back I made plans to come up to Sugarloaf with my son in late March, and I intend to stick with those plans.    

post #38 of 51

Personally, I don't think an apology can be made by Boyne Resorts to cover the event. This was foolish by Boyne Resorts, and just seems to break the First Amendment and all this because vonzipe posted a 10 word post in bad taste?

 

post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiking4 View Post

Personally, I don't think an apology can be made by Boyne Resorts to cover the event. This was foolish by Boyne Resorts, and just seems to break the First Amendment and all this because vonzipe posted a 10 word post in bad taste?

 


 

The First Amendment prevents Congress from making laws abridging freedom of speech.

How does that apply here?

 

A tragic death can make everybody involved irrational for a time...I remember that innocent jibing like "your mama dresses you funny" would make me crazy, fighting mad after my mother died when I was young. Now that everybody has calmed down and buried the hatchet, maybe we should cut them all a break?

post #40 of 51

Without passing judgment on the appropriateness of the statement I will simply point out that in the law we use a phrase called a "slippery slope". This implies, as I am sure most or you are aware, how quickly a floor or set of parameters can erode based upon a faulty judgment or decision.

 

That, in a non-emotional sense, is what is most disturbing about this case. When a business begins policing its patrons for their opinions we are all impacted and not necessarily for the better. That may be the unstated basis for the visceral reaction that people have to the actions of the parent corporation and their ultimate decision to soften their stance as to this individual.

 

I don't want to ski or have a beer with the jerk who made the comment, but in the words of a great first amendment attorney (paraphrased) I will fight to the end for the right for him to make offensive statements. Censorship does not occur in a broad sweeping fashion. Rather the erosion occurs a little bit at a time.

 

There is no positive aspect to this story, except possibly the creation of a healthy discourse as to free speech.

post #41 of 51

Yes, but the First Amendment protects basic rights. Someone should be allowed to post a comment like such, I believe, without facing situations like this. I, somewhat, believe that Sugarloaf is affecting these basic rights.

 

And please don't respond to this. I don't want to start a discussion on the First Amendment.

post #42 of 51
Quote:

And please don't respond to this. I don't want to start a discussion on the First Amendment.

 

I agree, but I think some folks here should go read the freakin Amendment, as it's clear they don't have a grasp of what it says, means, or prohibits.

 

NYSkier -- your comment about businesses policing their patrons is ridiculous. Go to any business establishment and start making a loud speech....just stand right in the middle of Walmart for example, and loudly state your views on abortion. Keep doing it for an hour, or until they have security escort you from the store. Did they violate your First Amendment rights? (hint - the answer isn't yes)

post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYSkier55 View Post

 

There is no positive aspect to this story [....]


 

I respectfully disagree.  Representatives from Sugarloaf met with the individual who posted the comment and they jointly buried the hatchet.  The individual got his pass back.  Sounds positive to me. 

post #44 of 51

It looks to me like both parties saw a bit of each others view and tried to understand.

I also think that Stephen K is sincere in his expressing the over reaction to the pass pulling and also he has listened to the people in the forums and tried to understand why the majority where so upset.

Yesterday you could not have got me up his hill with a Piston bully,today I have no problem with the resort as they appear to be making an effort to become a better corperate citizen.

post #45 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiking4 View Post

And please don't respond to this.

So your tell me not to post my opinion, about what you said, so much for the first amendment.

 

 

post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen Kircher View Post

 


The team was wrong to allow posted comments or such emotion to play a part in their decision to revoke skiing privileges and acknowledge that both, along with past issues, clouded their judgment in this case.
 
<stuff deleted>
 
I personally want to personally and on behalf of Boyne Resorts apologize to Matt o for the consternation that he has endured and thank him for his objectivity and maturity while working through this matter in the past several days.

 

Good on ya Steve...it sounds like this sort of thing is less likely to happen again, and that's what I, and others, really wanted.

post #47 of 51
Quote:

Billymc - "NYSkier -- your comment about businesses policing their patrons is ridiculous. Go to any business establishment and start making a loud speech....just stand right in the middle of Walmart for example, and loudly state your views on abortion. Keep doing it for an hour, or until they have security escort you from the store. Did they violate your First Amendment rights? (hint - the answer isn't yes)"

 

The distinction between the two is huge. He did not stand on the mountain or in the store and make the comment. He did it outside of the venue. That is what makes the actions of the mountains inappropriate. You analogy is misplaced.

 

Jimski - You missed the last part of my post. The dialogue between Boyne and the poster and the end result came about from people expressing their opinions. That is the positive aspect that I was referring to.

 

Remember this is my opinion...not gospel, not fact. We have come to the point, thanks to talk radio and cable TV, were we believe that that if someone expresses an opinion that we disagree with we must shout them down, not actually express an idea.. There is no need for that.

 

 

 

post #48 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYSkier55 View Post

Jimski - You missed the last part of my post. The dialogue between Boyne and the poster and the end result came about from people expressing their opinions. That is the positive aspect that I was referring to.

 

Remember this is my opinion...not gospel, not fact. We have come to the point, thanks to talk radio and cable TV, were we believe that that if someone expresses an opinion that we disagree with we must shout them down, not actually express an idea.. There is no need for that.

 

 

 


 

NY, I got your point, and I agree that Sugarloaf's initial response -- pulling the guy's pass -- was an over-reaction.  I was seriously considering changing the venue for my Spring ski outing with my son.  But then Sugarloaf did what I think is relatively rare for large organizations: they listened, realized they had over-reacted, restored the guy's pass, and learned from the experience.  Isn't that what we all wanted as the outcome?  I think this is positive.  You may still disagree -- I respect that, and certainly would not try to "shout you down".

post #49 of 51
Thread Starter 

I think that SRK and Boyne have sacked up, admitted some mistakes on their part and resolved the matter in an appropriate and timely manner.   They should be credited for that. 

post #50 of 51

I think that the fact that Boyne changed their position publically was not only the right thing to do, but an amazing about face for a large company. Cudos to them for realizing their error. That is the best part of this story.

 

And now I step off of my soapbox...and think about making turns.

post #51 of 51

Props to SK and Boyne.    I didn't get too deep into the details on this one but know the basic outline and just read Kircher's post above, which seems as good as it could get. 

 

I've only had the oppty to ski one Boyne resort to date (Brighton), but have three others on "the list" -- Sugarloaf, Sunday River, and Crystal, and they all just moved up a couple notches.

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