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Rob Butler, What the Heck?????

post #1 of 126
Thread Starter 
I was just watching OLN, and Rob Butler was doing his "ski lessons". I have never been a fan of Butler's. That boot buckle tight stance looks plain stupid.

But this was bizarre. In demonstrating a "proper" ski turn he says "You have to start with a skid". Then, to iniate the turn, he sort of twists his ankles in the direction of the turn. I truly thought I was seeing things! But then he said that you should practice by putting a magazine on a hard floor and twisting the feet in each direction, without moving the rest of the body.

Nothing in his technique looked anything like carving. Yes, his skis were parallel, but it almost seems like there's more of a carve in a wedge, than what he's doing!

Am I missing something???? :
post #2 of 126
You are right he was not carving. I guess he thought that he would start us all out in a SKID!
He also has a littel hop once in a while, watch his technique, it usally happens on his edge change right to left.
Oh well. Is he PSIA?
post #3 of 126
Oh no!! there's that word again (proper). I just hate that word. (see post on ski movement thread)

Otherwise, never heard of butler, but sounds like he is going way outside of the turn du jour. (the clean carve with a seamless relaxtion release move)

Anyway, good luck with your magazine counter rotation turns.

cheers, Wade
post #4 of 126
Sounds like crapola to me.
post #5 of 126
Now theres a dilemma ... which magazine would you choose?

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 18, 2001 09:56 PM: Message edited 1 time, by man from oz ]</font>
post #6 of 126
Thread Starter 
Holiday, just as I was reading your other post, Butler was using the word "proper". The timing was pretty funny. The magazine thing just does not look like a very functional exercise to me, since it is a twisting action, rather than a carve. I prefer to do the Dyna Disk exercises that kee Tov was talking about in the Injury and Skiing thread.

Dr. Go, at Sugarloaf, they teach those little hop things, but only as a means of assesing alignment. If you cannot do the little jump, you are probably too far back.

SCSA, well put!
post #7 of 126
I have never seen or heard of Butler but I will be getting OLN soon........ but, as the devils advocate.... Was he demonstrating technique for powder? It's pretty hard to demo this in powder since you can't see the skis and a tighter stance with rotary can be described this way.
post #8 of 126
Rob Butler is a high ranking CSIA (Canadian) instructor. The purpose of his segments is to introduce different ideas to improve your skiing in the hopes that one will click for your body and brain.

His "lifting the knees" segment from years ago got me skiing "parallel" immediately. It was well before shaped skis.
post #9 of 126
Thread Starter 
Yuki, no powder. Saffron, I understand about learning new ideas, but what he was demoing is something I've been trying pretty hard NOT to do.
post #10 of 126
Actually, LM, the little progression he demonstrated with the foot swivels is one approach to developing steering skills. By sitting down like he did on the snowmobile seat and turning the feet back and forth on a slippery surface, you can isolate the musclature employed. The point is to do the activity with the feet rather than the hips.

Remember, the OLN bits are "tips", not complete lessons. If one watches a season's worth of Butler's tips, they'll probably encounter several ideas that might help improve their skiing.
post #11 of 126
LM, >>> I understand about learning new ideas, but what he was demoing is something I've been trying pretty hard NOT to do.<<<

I don't have OLN so I never saw the guy, but my question is: CAN you do it? The twisting back and forth, on a nearly flat ski on a nearly flat slope, without catching your edges?

It's all part of expert skiing.

post #12 of 126
Thread Starter 
Not with my boots locked together like that. And if I do that, it feels very wrong.
But here's my stupid question: Are the skis supposed to be put on edge first, before the steering happens? If this is the case, developing the steering skills before the edging skills seems to be out of sequence for the whole kinetic chain concept.

Or, I could be completely off.
post #13 of 126
Good point Ott.
I've been watching Butler on Skiers World for a few years now. A lot of his stuff is "old school" but he is smooth and when he opens his stance he can arc with the best.
Appearantly CSIA has a little different approach but the results are simaler.
post #14 of 126

In defense of those folks that ski with their boots touching, let me say that many have a reason or have been skiing that way for years.

My reason is it helps me keep my skis from wandering. If I try to use a wider stance, my left turn looks strange. It wanders in and out, convergant and divergant. So, to keep it under control, I keep the boots together. It works for me.
post #15 of 126
>>Rob Butler is a high ranking CSIA (Canadian) instructor. <<

So there's the problem right off the bat! Just kidding.

There are some in the forum that suggest this is an exercise. And if so, it shouldn't be called the " Proper Ski Turn " since IMHO, the proper ski turn depends on what kind of terrain your in, and what kind of technique one wants to apply in that terrain. The key is to fine tune all the different techniques so that one LOOKS GOOD and is functional while doing them. -------------Wigs :
post #16 of 126
Rick H

There might be an alignment issue here. What does your foot bed doc say??----Wigs
post #17 of 126
My agreement with the group here is that there are a number of techniques that must be mastered and are required for each run or trip down the hill.
Too close or wide open is a choice that has to be made as the terrain, snow condition or speed of turn dictate. If you can not ski close or you can not ski wide you may have a technical issue later in the run if not in LIFE.
The swivel that Butler was showing, or the steering that he was attempting to get us to "feel" is a necissary tool or technique we all need to get through the day.
It is ALL good stuff. I love the Old School and New school discussion. I talk with some of the "Free Riders" (by the way they are pro's they do not ride free they have a pretty good price tag to ski your area or event.
THe so called FREERIDERS even admit that old school new school argument is not a fine line balck and white as some think. Sliding down the hill on two slats has indeed changed over the years. However there are some very defined points that will remein constant despite technology making it easier for the individual skier to look better and ski better.
post #18 of 126
LM, I would say that if you're trying not to do it, then don't. Like I said there will be some tip throughout the broadcast season that'll click for you. Have a look at some of them from past seasons.
post #19 of 126
Thanks for the link. The piece on "carving II" is right up to date. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #20 of 126
I need to modify my crapola comment -- possibly even retract it.

I watched the bumps .gif and the short turns .gif -- nice turns. Butler has nice skills.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 19, 2001 09:22 AM: Message edited 1 time, by SCSA ]</font>
post #21 of 126
Ott is right.

Feeling your skis at the flat point is part of expert skiing.

Here's a drill. Stand across the hill. Make a 180 degree turn just by letting your skis "fall downhill" (very important concept I/we've been harping on lately), then transferring weight. You can't use your poles either. You should be able to make the turn within 2 ski lengths.

This is essentially what Rob is talking about. He's telling skiers to feel their skis when they're flat and I think that's great.

I'm definitely taking away the crapola comment now.
post #22 of 126

The alignment is spot on when my skis are together. The problem stems from an old motorcycle racing injury, 42 years ago. The left leg is a bit arthritic ( read that bone-on-bone) and it has been lazy for 40 years. I have been working on these problem for three years and it is getting better. As I said, the narrow stance works for me. If it aint broken, don't fix it.
post #23 of 126
Thread Starter 
OK! I stand corrected. Probably should not have brought up the stance width issue, because that is pretty much a personal preference thing. I still think that any male instructor, or boyishly built female instructor who trys to get ALL of their students into a boot locked stance needs a SERIOUS lesson on female anatomy, but that was not my original point.

It does, however, give some insight into how particular students pick out specific instructors. Sometimes its just a question of personal esthetics.

I have these rotating disks at home that we use for ankle exercise in Pilates. I guess I need to start practicing more wind shield wiper moves. Still not sure why. My skidding is more than adequate, {probably too adequate}. It would make more sense to start with an exercise that would involve a carve.
But I'll take your word for it.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 21, 2001 10:41 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Lisamarie ]</font>
post #24 of 126
LisaM: When you have 10' of fresh feathers on the hill you find life much easier by tightening that stance up and using the two skis as one platform........ soon, soon..soon
post #25 of 126
Thread Starter 
Nah! That's what an instructor at jay peak told me, when they had one of those major {for the east} powder days. I don't think I've ever been so off balance in my life. Kind of bothers me when I have to explain Q angles to an instructor. I get paid to teach during the week, when I take a lesson, I want it to be with someone who has a clue. My solution was to leave the class.

Anyway, like I said, this was not supposed to be about stance width, since we've already had lord knows how many threads about that. My main concern was the use of the skid.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 19, 2001 03:12 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Lisamarie ]</font>
post #26 of 126
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wigs:
>>Rob Butler is a high ranking CSIA (Canadian) instructor. <<

-------Wigs :

Well that explains the HOP
post #27 of 126
Dr. Go

The video segment is good! As a matter of fact, I myself use this same drill to help folks find center, and to help with there balance. I think though, that when the subject was brought up, that the reference was that the person was hopping, or an up un-weighting move to start the turn, huh? I could be wrong, but that's kinda the way I understood you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But again, different strokes for different terrain. And sometimes one has to hope to make the turn, ---steep and narrow---?

The comment I believe was, " So there's the problem right off the bat! Just kidding. " and not, "Well that explains the HOP " was just a [img]tongue.gif[/img] And no disrespect intented.

I try not to get down on anybodies skiing because there's a reason for it. But I do try to help folks with there skiing if they want it.-----------Wigs :
post #28 of 126
Wigs, You are correct!

I posted earlier about the number of skills required to ski well or as some would say expert. (Lets just say advanced)
Techinque is a number of styles and technical tools put togeather at a time or place to produce a desired action or response to an enviroment.
At times as you illustrate a hop may be necessary. Frankly I am a beliver that the hop remains in most turns only it is disguised in the technique. Extension, CM movement, terrain absorbtion or even the ski dynamics itself can be used to mask the tool for quick edge change.
I do not feel anyone is taking issue with our colleague Mr. Butler, just having a bit of enjoyment as we await SNOWFALL of significant proportions.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 20, 2001 09:47 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
post #29 of 126
I did send the gif of the hop for Lisamarie. She told us that they use it in ski school to assess balance. Watch the demonstration closely there is so much feedback. The demonstrator in this example is in terrific shape. At least the legs are. Look at the skis, the bottoms angle up and in as he jumps. The muscle tone and ligaments are in top shape. Good boot fit also. The landing is soft, good cordination and timing. Incerdibly flat as the skier prepares to land and recieve the surface with the flat of the ski. So the demonstrator has done this before and is aware of the edge angle at all times. Of course as Lisamari said the balance is there as the landing is solid and not wobbly nor slipping fore or aft. It is a well done demonstration.
And as Lisamarie said a good teaching tool. For the first day it will certainly get the student to feel more of the ski and the interaction that they should enjoy from it.
post #30 of 126
He was not carving, it was not his intention to carve. So this is not a criticism just a statement of fact and a restatement of what was intended. The swivle, and or the demonstrated "SKID", sliding action of a not well defined nor pressured edge. Was done just as the hop demonstration. To gain a feel for the ski, edge, balance and ultimately muscle actions to produce CONTROL.
These littel swivels are fun and in some cases needed to survive between some elments out on the hill.
Ever see "Snow Job"? A movie done many years ago, with Jean Claude. He has some pretty good skiing in there for "OLD SCHOOL" there is a segment where he and his pal, (an instructor) are skiing or begining a run and chatting as they head to more vertical activity. So in the flat so to speak he swivel turns in the 60's garb of tight pants tucked into the boot top. Really funny stuff, frankly.
Anyway, this tool is needed to do other skills and have techique which will survive or will allow YOU to survive.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 20, 2001 10:07 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Dr.GO ]</font>
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