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Soo, enjoy MA'ing these two video.

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

2002




2009

post #2 of 28
Thread Starter 

Some detail :
1) 2002 video, Tecnica TNT, Voelkl P40 F1 198 cm
2) 2009 video, Tecnica Icon Race XT17 , Nordica Hot Rod Top Fuel 178 cm
Others:
3) weight : same (about 80kg)
4) Fitness level : low


I'm thinking that the boots are to stiff and maybe I'd better start looking for a softer one (Dalbello Krypton Cross ?) but this is what I have now, and this is what I must work with.

 


Edited by Nobody - Thu, 05 Feb 09 12:36:20 GMT
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 

Uh?

Fifty (50) Views and no comments at all?

Either I'm really perfect or I really suck!

 

Which of the two?

C'mon, don't be shy, I know you're here!

post #4 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post

.....but this is what I have now, and this is what I must work with.

 


Edited by Nobody - Thu, 05 Feb 09 12:36:20 GMT


 

I love this statement   (pritty good skiing as well)

post #5 of 28

This is you in both videos?  The pitches snow and hills are very different.  What were you wanting to know about?  There is no question asked. 

post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 

Yes, Lady Salina, it's me in both videos.

I put the 2002 as a reference (was shown here in at least one occasion that I can remember) for those (if still here) who already saw it.

The 2002 is "before". The 2009 is "after", "before" and "after"...heart surgery (aortic valve and root prosthesis implant).

Of course the two slopes are different.

The 2002 is on a black groomed run in Austria (Galtuer).

The 2009 is in the Madesimo offpiste area (Canalone) one of the nicest (and steepest in some point) runs

in my region.

 

The question is simple, please do a "general" M.A. or, in other words :

What can be improved, why and how ?

What do you see that hits you as a sore patch (I see at least one) ?

post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post

.....but this is what I have now, and this is what I must work with.

 


Edited by Nobody - Thu, 05 Feb 09 12:36:20 GMT


 

I love this statement   (pritty good skiing as well)

 

Thanks tdk6...

that's one of my mother and my uncles (my father wasn't a skier, btw, she was) teachings...

Now that I think of, I might start a couple fo threads titled "My mother did say..." stay tuned

 

 

Also, apologies to both of you for not replying soone but I was offline for the whole week-end...

post #8 of 28

Its very quiet at the forum at the moment. Maybe it has something to do with the new version..... Anyway, as I said before nice skiing.

 

Video1

I like the short turn part of the clip. You have very good rhythm and your legs move quickly from side to side. Your upper body faces nicely down the hill at all times and no unnecessary movements present. You use your poles well and your stance looks solid. Good skiing. However, I dont like your transition from short to long. The ridge you should have been able to anticipate better considering there was a camera present. You also do not flex with your legs comming over that ridge. You also bank and weight the inside ski. You should have flexed and angulated for better outside ski pressure. The following turns looks like they are molto drifted and skidded. You are very far away so I cannot see properly but the last turn looks like carved. That looks ok. Could be the camera angle that gives me the wrong impression. All in all very dynamic and good skiing.

 

Video 2

Tough terrain. Steep, long way down, snow conditions bad, flat light etc. Taking that in consideration you did not ski badly. However, here are some of my thaughts. You are rushing your turns. You are trying to increase controll by rushing through apex. What you should do insted is to increase controll during your turn. That you do by working with our legs more. In the upper part of the run I see you extend mainly from your waist. Work more with your legs. Retract your legs on top of the turn and dont be afraid of staying longer in the fall line. Think fish hook turns. Everything considered, you skied it well and it looks like real life extreme skiing :).

 

I agree with previous poster that the two clips doesent look like the same skier. All in all good skiing.

post #9 of 28
Thread Starter 

Why do you think that I don't look the same person?

What made you think of this?

Do you see an evolution for the better or an involution for the worse?

 

post #10 of 28

Nobody,

 

Fun skiing on steep terrain in slightly cruddy snow. I like the use of line to enhance speed control and help to get on the new edge above the fall line.

 

On your left turns, your inside shoulder is much lower than your outside shoulder. If you can keep your hips and shoulders more parallel to the snow surface, you'll get even earlier edge engagement. Compare to your right turns. Turns in both directions have an up move (or "pop"), but are more noticeable on the left turns.  Notice where your shoulders are pointing at turn finish. They are lined up very closely to the angle between the ski tips. If you would finish your turns in a more countered position, you would be able to move your hips to the inside of the new turn at initiation instead of doing the up move first. This will also help drive earlier edge engagement. Part of what is making getting countered difficult right now is that you are finishing your turns with a bit of park and ride "shopping" for the next turn start. Try focusing on continuing to move through the bottom of the turn (i.e. stretch it out) and then go right into the next turn when you run out of movement range.. Finally, you can see your skis get knocked around a fair amount. Work on resisting that more (tense up the feet and the core). The movement changes suggested above will also help you manage pressure on the skis better to help the skis fight the crud's effort to knock them around.


Edited by therusty - 2/10/2009 at 02:50 pm
post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 

Thanks Rusty. I'll read yours (and tdk6) comments very carefully and mandate to memory for future use.

Basically what comes out is that I'm not strong enough, and on this you're 100% spot on.

But most importantly, I've no endurance (strenghtwise) at all.

As for the "popping" it was about time someone commented on that!

I saw it immediately on my first view of the video (prior to downloading it to my pc) and I was horrified!

Not that there is anything wrong, inerently, in a "poppe" turn, but on that kind of terrain, it was uncalled for, I should, I could, have bone it without. At first, I thought it was because of the camera angle, but I'm now thinking that if the camera would have been placed frontally to the descent, the "pop" would have been seen

equally (same intensity) on both turns....

post #12 of 28

I was posting while you were so I was not aware of your medical issues. Sorry. I can see now that you are the same person in both videos, it was just not very obvious. In the first one you were much more dynamic. In the second one more static. The biggest reason for this is terrain offcourse.

 

Therustys gave you good feedback. The up-move is pritty difficult getting rid of. You never posted in my crudd thread but there I give an option for skiing crud without extending in the traditional way. Just a thaught. Rusty commented on your skis getting knocked around and that is a huge problem in crud IMO. Tighten your core and get your skis to track solid through the snow before apex. If you rush the top of your turns you will not be able to stop crud from knocking your skis arround. I like your line though. That is exactly how I ski crudd as well, turn and then traverse. Only thing you need now is to get yourselfe unweighted enough to start a new turn without using ski rebound from previous turn or retarding back to the dredded up-boppin-head-poppin up-unweighting you do so well. Linking turns down a slope like this is not really a very good strategy.

post #13 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

....Linking turns down a slope like this is not really a very good strategy.


 

(scooby doo voice) uhhhherrrrrr????

 

 

Hmmm - this would be true if one was not able to link turns down a slope like this. But the truth is that Nobody can link turns down a slope like this.

post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

....Linking turns down a slope like this is not really a very good strategy.


 

(scooby doo voice) uhhhherrrrrr????

 

 

Hmmm - this would be true if one was not able to link turns down a slope like this. But the truth is that Nobody can link turns down a slope like this.

Offcourse he can but fact is that skiing in places like the clip is from in such bad and varying snow conditions forces one to not continuously link turns down the fall line. Like skiing bumps, zipperline is the way to go but not always practical. Has nothing to do with how good you are. I am just trying to give a suggestion for how to maximize controll and safety. Start by making a turn and going across. Then make two or three turns and then go across. After a while when feeling more comfident increase lengths of linked turns. IMO its great to be able to go across whenever I want to without having to give up on controll when turning out of a traverse.

post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 

Great discussion boyz! I like the way it is developing, thanks to both of you!

tdks, no need to apologize!

One thing that I had to make account for, looking how different I ski in the two video, apart the obvious 6 years difference and the other "little" things, is that the 2002 video was shot at the "apex" of my skiing season that year, good form, good overall mileage (in ski days terms), while the 2009 has been shot on my 3rd or 4th skiing day (so, effectively at the "beginning" of the ski season) with poor if not nil

physical conditioning...

 

The fact that I was crossing...mah, I don't really know why I did chose that line instead of a tighter, straighter one. Looking at it (the video), linked rounder short turns look the ideal way to ski down there...

So, yes, I think I "can" ski linked turns on that slope, but a lot of "ifs" must align...

The biggest one is physical conditioning, which may come in two ways, skiing, skiing and more skiing or a combination of  ski gym and increased general sport activity while at home (notice how tired I appeared on the traverse between the two last turns, arms lowered and all) I'd rather do a mix of the two than only one.

 

Again, I "could have" but it was nearing midday and my legs were crying for some rest, which would have come only at the end of that slope...I "hear" you thinking "so why did you shoot it then?" The truth is that I did not plan for, the day was planned for me to tape my friend and not vice-versa (I am shy of being put on tape, I'd rather be the cameraman than the "movie star"). But, on second thought, it may be better this way, a sore and tired body will surely expose (as it has in this case) and make more visible technical faults that a very fit and rested (not to mention a prepared mind) body could have hidden...

 

post #16 of 28

I think TDK and Rusty have covered the annalysis. 

 

The reason I wasn't sure if it was the same person skiing was the terrain.  I'd really like to see a video on similar terrain to the 2002 as being on a pitch and in crud pronounce any weakness you might have in your skiing and can cause little phsycological issues.  I do really see a more definite edge and commitment on your turns to the right then the left.  I find the turns are not round enough, more Z then S (common reaction to steep pitch).

 

  In the early video you have more angulation (bend at the hip keeping shoulders more paralell with the slope), but still a little inclination (tipping),at points that you correct some.  In the second on the pitch, more inclination to start your turns and the angulation doesn't follow the inclinated start to hold the edge more solid and keep more pressure on the downhill ski.  I think the pitch itself may have done this.  It's harder to commit to such things on a pitch (creates more of a dive down the hill feel on initiation), so I'm curious if the angulation is there on a lower pitch in better snow.

 

  I guess what I'm saying is, I can't judge progression because of the very different terrain of the videos.  I think both videos show a solid skier and it's nice to see that after all you've been through you can be out there on that pitch, trying to do it better!

post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post

Again, I "could have" but .... 


 

The reason linked turns are a desired strategy is that they are so much more economical energy wise than stop and start turns. The problem is that, with the movements described above, linked turns are much more difficult to execute. When you don't finish your turns in an anatomically powerful position and you're tired, then there is a strong incentive to "shop" for terrain variations that will help the next turn. But that's going to make you more tired, which is going to make you keep shopping, which is  ....

 

The $64K question is "tired" an excuse for not being able to steer into counter?

post #18 of 28

therusty, I dont agree. IMO linkin turns on steep in crudd is more tiring than if you are frequently traversing inbetween.

 

Sorry but your $64K question doesent make any sence to me. Let me ask you, is "tired" and excuse for falling asleap at the weel?

post #19 of 28

TDK,

 

The best skiers in the world rip linked turns through steep crudd like it was a groomer. Are they able to do this because of superior strength? Or is it their technique that lets them ski those runs without getting tired? I do agree that if one's technique is inefficient, one may need a traverse for a breather in between turns.  It happens to me more than I'd like to admit. Although we don't traverse in between turns on groomers because it's more efficient, please feel free to think that crudd is a special case. Your powder may vary.

 

The $64K question is asking if it takes more energy to finish turns into a countered position versus a squared to the skis position? If it does, then being tired is a legitimate excuse for not being able to link turns. My theory is that finishing a turn in a countered position is a means of storing energy while staying squared to one's skis is a means of spending energy, Feel free to offer your own theories. That's what makes this place so interesting.

 

Being tired is a reason for falling asleep at the wheel, not an excuse. A sudden onset of narcolepsy would be an excuse.

post #20 of 28

The best skiers in the world rip linked turns through steep crudd like it was a groomer.

 

Can you be just a 1/2 assed skier and do that?

post #21 of 28

The skiing in the older video LOOKS better.  Skiing with your upper body facing down the fall line always looks better than following your tips in your turns.

 

Not only does the skiing in the first video look better, in many ways it is better.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a better skier.  I don't see evidence of regression.  I think the difference comes not so much from ability, but from intent.  In the first video you are just making turns down the hill.  In the second one, for some, possibly good, reasons, which we will get to later, you seem intent on playing it safe, not letting things get out of control, controlling your speed.  The result of that intent is some use of upper body to torque/hurry skis around at the start of the turns, turning right out of the fall line with both upper and lower body at the end of your turns, and all the things rusty pointed out above. 

 

I have the feeling that if you had just let your skis run and made turns without thought or care to your speed (imho the most enjoyable way to ski),  you would have had the skill to handle it.  Recovering from a heart operation, and  possibly being out of shape, maybe you would have found yourself with the will but not the means after a bit and been unable to slow down or stop.  There is no doubt about it, flying through that stuff at speed is very tiring, and we have all seen the video of that guy tumbling down the moguls tdk posted quite some time ago. Haven't we?

 

Perhaps it is best to err on the side of caution.

post #22 of 28

nobody,

 

The image in the 2002 vid is too small for me to do an accurate MA.  The skiing in the 2009 video is really exciting on tough terrain and conditions.  What I see is more survival than anything else.  What is evident is that you tend to press your knee forward and then bend at the waist instead of flexing your ankle on the outside ski, and your inside ankle is open forcing the foot too far ahead, which drops your hips behind your feet.  From that position on steep terrain, you have little choice other than rotate your shoulders toward the new turn and try to recover your balance again at the end of the next turn.

 

Work on flexing your ankles instead of knee press into the boot tongues.

 

RW

post #23 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post

nobody,

 

The image in the 2002 vid is too small for me to do an accurate MA.  The skiing in the 2009 video is really exciting on tough terrain and conditions.  What I see is more survival than anything else.  What is evident is that you tend to press your knee forward and then bend at the waist instead of flexing your ankle on the outside ski, and your inside ankle is open forcing the foot too far ahead, which drops your hips behind your feet.  From that position on steep terrain, you have little choice other than rotate your shoulders toward the new turn and try to recover your balance again at the end of the next turn.

 

Work on flexing your ankles instead of knee press into the boot tongues.

 

RW

 This is interesting, could it be due to the fact that I haven't the strength (or the technical ability) to flex the ankle (bend the boot) ? In other words, is the boot too stiff at the current standpoint?

post #24 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

The best skiers in the world rip linked turns through steep crudd like it was a groomer.

 

Can you be just a 1/2 assed skier and do that?

 

In my case, it is becoming obvious that the answer is, "no"

 

Again, a big "thank you" to all, lots of great "food for thought" from everyone!

post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post

nobody,

 

The image in the 2002 vid is too small for me to do an accurate MA.  The skiing in the 2009 video is really exciting on tough terrain and conditions.  What I see is more survival than anything else.  What is evident is that you tend to press your knee forward and then bend at the waist instead of flexing your ankle on the outside ski, and your inside ankle is open forcing the foot too far ahead, which drops your hips behind your feet.  From that position on steep terrain, you have little choice other than rotate your shoulders toward the new turn and try to recover your balance again at the end of the next turn.

 

Work on flexing your ankles instead of knee press into the boot tongues.

 

RW

 This is interesting, could it be due to the fact that I haven't the strength (or the technical ability) to flex the ankle (bend the boot) ? In other words, is the boot too stiff at the current standpoint?


 

nobody,

 

There is a big difference between flexing the ankle, to equally balance on the whole ski and pressing the knee forward into the tongue of the boot (which is leaning forward on the tongue of the boot).  The boot may be too stiff for you b/c it is the inside ankle, as it is flexed, where the boot is flexed.  If it is not flexed, the foot moves forward, the ankle is opened, and the hip falls back.

 

I feel it is more of a stance problem, rather than a boot problem.  If you only feel the balls of the feet while skiing, you are pressing into the tongue of the boot and not flexing the ankle.  If you are flexing the ankle, you should be able to feel the whole length of the foot while skiing, especially the arch area.

 

Your body position suggests to me that you are leaning forward instead of flexing the ankle and there is no balancing over the inside foot at all.  By this, I mean that you should be able to pick up either foot at any time while skiing and maintain your balance and arc of the turn.

 

Long story short, pressing into the boot tongue ain't it.

 

RW

post #26 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post

 


 

nobody,

 

There is a big difference between flexing the ankle, to equally balance on the whole ski and pressing the knee forward into the tongue of the boot (which is leaning forward on the tongue of the boot).  The boot may be too stiff for you b/c it is the inside ankle, as it is flexed, where the boot is flexed.  If it is not flexed, the foot moves forward, the ankle is opened, and the hip falls back.

 

I feel it is more of a stance problem, rather than a boot problem.  If you only feel the balls of the feet while skiing, you are pressing into the tongue of the boot and not flexing the ankle.  If you are flexing the ankle, you should be able to feel the whole length of the foot while skiing, especially the arch area.

 

Your body position suggests to me that you are leaning forward instead of flexing the ankle and there is no balancing over the inside foot at all.  By this, I mean that you should be able to pick up either foot at any time while skiing and maintain your balance and arc of the turn.

 

Long story short, pressing into the boot tongue ain't it.

 

RW

 Ron, thanks for the explanation!

I have to go back and ski some to "double-check" but I am 97% sure that you nailed this aspect of my skiing. When you talked about balancing on one ski a light bulb went off...I can balance on one ski and turn (if it's arcing, I'll let you decide, that was going to be my next video, but it's in one of my friends camera and I haven't had it, yet) but only on my left leg, to tell the truth, I haven't tried skiing on my right

leg because I feel more confident with the left (I'm left handed, thus a psycological bias might click in as well) . Now you mentioned this mechanism, I'm not so sure that it's only a matter of preference....

As said, I've got to go out and ski to check it all.

 

post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post

 

TDK,

 

The best skiers in the world rip linked turns through steep crudd like it was a groomer. Are they able to do this because of superior strength? Or is it their technique that lets them ski those runs without getting tired? I do agree that if one's technique is inefficient, one may need a traverse for a breather in between turns.  It happens to me more than I'd like to admit. Although we don't traverse in between turns on groomers because it's more efficient, please feel free to think that crudd is a special case. Your powder may vary.

 

The $64K question is asking if it takes more energy to finish turns into a countered position versus a squared to the skis position? If it does, then being tired is a legitimate excuse for not being able to link turns. My theory is that finishing a turn in a countered position is a means of storing energy while staying squared to one's skis is a means of spending energy, Feel free to offer your own theories. That's what makes this place so interesting.

 

Being tired is a reason for falling asleep at the wheel, not an excuse. A sudden onset of narcolepsy would be an excuse.

The best skiers in the world are in very good shape. Its not purely a strenght issue, its a question of skiing fittness. Also, we are getting a bit sidetracked here since its not a question of what is ultimately possible while typing on this keyboard. Its about a nobody  asking for pointers on his skiing and shows a video of him in it. Cannot get much more hands on here on the net. I can relate perfectly to that situation. Checking his speed after every turn is my suggestion for a situation like that. If it means traversing in between turns then by all means do so. This is what my consept builds on. Build up your confidence. Start by eliminating risks and possible screw ups. Like gaining too much speed. That is my first consern. That you do by getting used to pointing your skis downhill with confidence. That you do by minimizing the negative impact crudd has on your skis by lifting them up off the snow. This is a great skill and it can be resorted to at any times. Even the best skiers in the world often resort to this move when pushed. Its childish to point out that crudd should be skied like you ski groomers and use the worlds best skiers as an example. I believe it only when I see it. No such videos of epic members that I have seen. And comparing videos is also not fair since conditions vary. Crud is not the same crud all over the world. Not even in the same place half an hour later. But you are right offcource, its mostly a question of skills. But no skill get practissed without the side effect of getting fit in the same prosess.

 

Something that has not been mentioned here in this thread is what kind of effect hesitation and fear has on stance width. And what kind of negative effect wide stance in steep terrain has on balance. Close the stance and try to stiffen up your core and make yourself strong. Balance over your outside ski and face downhill after you have come through the fall line. Dont forget to angulate. Stay forward. Stand on your outside ski. Upper and lower body separation is imperative. Work with your legs, flex and extend. If its not hard work you are not doing it right. If you dont get tired it can mean that you are fit not that it doesent require great effort. It doesent matter if you are submerged in crudd or flying over it, your core should be strong and your balance unaltered.

 

$64KQ... on what do you base your theory? Its too simple to say that countering is part of good efficient skiing and staying square is not and is therefore more tiring. I have been skiing forover 40y and there is little chanse of me improving in lets say powder or bumps in a very short time without any lessons or coaching. Still I find it much easier to ski later on in the season. That is because Im in better shape. Not because I have improved. There is some sort of (for me) hidden truth in what you are saying but I cannot put my finger on it. Sorry.

post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 $64KQ... on what do you base your theory? .... There is some sort of (for me) hidden truth in what you are saying but I cannot put my finger on it.

Physics. Common Sense. Experience. It's just a theory. All theories have some truth hidden in them, even wrong ones.

 

Mountains seem to have a marvelously efficient capacity for highlighting inefficient technique. Simply increase the difficulty factor and less skilled skiers will get tired exponentially faster. It's probably got something to do with that little "2" that hangs out on the top shelf next to acceleration.

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