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level 3 exam help/DP video - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Slatz - you pronate every time you go to edge the ski on its inside edge...

It is the act of rolling that ankle & rotating that femur just that bit to engage the edge...

So I hope your orthotic corrects 'overpronation' not 'pronation'
post #32 of 55
I understood that it meant collapse of the arch when the ankle was flexed.
If I stand barefoot and flex my ankle my knee tracks to the inside. With the orthotic under there my knee tracks staight ahead. Isn't that pronation? That's the way I remember from what I've read.
Could you give me a definition of pronation?
post #33 of 55
RAY HARDING: At heel strike, the foot needs to absorb the shock of impact.

So it pronates -- it rolls in.

As the weight goes forward, the other leg is swinging around to get in front.

The foot is recovering back and the arch is coming up.

The foot is now becoming a more rigid, stable structure.

And when you push off, you've got an efficient lift.

RAY HARDING: When you're walking, your feet are pronating too much, and they stay pronated for too long.

What happens is that this part of your foot rolls in here, and it should recover back out again.

But it doesn't -- it stays in, for too long.

SHELLY HORTON: So, although my foot type is normal, my old runners weren't doing me any favours.

Exercising in poorly-fitting shoes is a common cause of injuries.

RAY HARDING: Supposing you had an unstable foot that pronated excessively and you chose an excessively cushioned shoe that's not suitable for that foot type.

The foot is going to roll even more.

So that could create excessive rotation through the knee, or even your back.

You would cause muscle-overuse injuries, because the muscles are trying to stabilise your foot.

So they're going to work overtime.
post #34 of 55
Sorry - it is a transcipt from a kids science show on running shoes... but you get the idea...
(There is some femur rotation in the process too)

PRONATION is not a problem - you need to be able to pronate...that is how your foot is designed to work...

Excessive pronation (over-pronating) is a problem...

Pronation is how you develop your edge grip on ice you make the ski grip the ice by pronating... when I ski ice I need to think pronate so I can do so & get grip.
post #35 of 55
I understand how it works in shoes. That's pretty much what I was thinking of.
Since the boot is rigid, the tibia can't track to the inside. The angle of the tibia in relation to the bottom of the ski doesn't change. Again, I'm basing this on experience with people on the canting wands. Occasionally I find someone who can move their knee slightly in relation to the ski base(1/2 deg. or less) but rarely. Almost everyone tries, usually unsuccessfully.
Getting back to the thread, if lateral movement of the knee(plus rotation of the femur)puts the ski on edge with the knee outside of the line of force from the CM considerable strength is required to maintain the edge. Most of us don't have that and compensate in some way. Often a skier sits back on the tail of the ski where it doesn't turn as much with that much edge angle(as it appears DP is doing). More accomplished skiers will often move their hip out to adjust the angle(notice the inclined look of many WC racers, especially in slalom). Skiers who are not as strong usually produce a skidded, banked turn. Individuals without a good understanding of the relationship of the tibia-ski base angle(like my examiner)will often call this a Movement Pattern problem when it's really an adaptation to improper cant angles.
Again I would like to point out the article in The Professional Skier (winter 2002 I think)by the "other" Bob Barnes. In it they tested a group of various ability skiers. First each was fitted with footbeds and evaluated on their skiing. Then they were put in the Dalebello boot with the adjustable sole and aligned with the guage held between their knees. This gives them a slightly knock kneed stance.(like reccomended by The Athletic Skier) They were then re-evaluated. The observation was that many of their "Movement Pattern" problems were corrected "without any coaching or instruction".
Skiing is a combination of technology and athletics. If the technology part isn't right the movements aren't going to fit the accepted mold.
post #36 of 55
I don't see DP having difficulty releasing/engaging edges. I see him banking his torso to the inside on turns where the inside knee wobbles outward and I see him hurrying his turn entry with a rushed extension to unweight so he can pivot the skis.

I'd start out asking him to lengthen the time it takes to do his extension. Maybe count: One, two, three during the extension so it isn't so sudden and so challenging to the balance.

Then I'd take him to flatter terrain and do some tracer turns (one-legged skiing with the unweighted ski just imitating the weighted one's actions). I'd do a bunch on each leg and concentrate on keeping the torso upright when the hip has to go in to do the outside edge turn. I'd try some 50-50 weighted turns, still on the easier terrain while thinking about the counted extension. Finally, I'd invite DP to ride the old outside ski into the next turn and let the turn itself cause the shift of weight to the new outside ski, a sort-of toned down White Pass turn entry.
post #37 of 55
I'd be curious to see him ski on one ski.
post #38 of 55
"I don't see DP having difficulty releasing/engaging edges"...

He doesn't have trouble releasing/engaging - it's that he gets too much edge too early with hi setup.

"I see him hurrying his turn entry with a rushed extension to unweight so he can pivot the skis."

True. A very clear symptoms of being "overedged".

He has so much edge, the ski over-engages at his edge switch - the ski is not going to come around - its gonna track on him. He can't create a rhythm of flow into the turn because of it.
So instead of progressively rolling the skis, he has to release his feet away from himself, pivot, then try like h*** to smooth out the reengagement of the edge - that's why his knee wobbles - he's "backing off" the edge to feather the ski. He doesn't know it, he's just fighting. Again, not his fault.

I believe (from reading here at Epicski) that Jeff Bergeron is a knowledgable boot technician. As Jeff will tell you, what happens in the shop will put a skier's alignment in the ball park - but after on snow observation of a skier, it is most often found that additional boot correction is necessary.

If Jeff watched this video, I would venture he would recommend additional "improvements" - Jeff, you out there?
post #39 of 55
Again guys be careful what you are diagnosing here. This is not a guy skiing on a groomer normally relaxed in front of you. We have been told that dp is in a state of very serious changes resulting very erratic skiing. Weems is challenging him with very different movment patterns here.

Jeff is not going to make a mistake as large at 2 degrees overcant at his shop. He's much better than that.

What you are looking at is the same movement patterns for a person has who is over canted but the movements are from a very different cause.

dp had been use to back seat, up unweighting, transfering weight to the new outside ski and tail pushing to initiate his turn. Weems has worked enough to get dp to stop immediately dumping weight on the outside ski and moving generally towards the direction of the turn but on this slope, dp is not getting forward enough for offensive turn initiation. The result is denial of movments that he normally uses to initiate a turn without a replacement. He commits with the top half but holds the hips back and inside while bracing against the old outside ski. This is the same as overcanting. His only method of movement is banking and rotation until the hips start to follow and then there is a quick change of edges.

Its the very same movement pattern for being stuck on an inside edge because he has only commited the top half, not the bottom half to offensive movement patterns. He is stuck on an inside edge after commitment not because he is overcanted but because he is not flexing the ankles and moving forward from the feet up.

The key difference here is where the weight is going and how consistent the feet are after edge change. Differences caused by cant do not change after edge change. His hips, feet and edge angles are all over the place after edge change. He is clearly challenged and not settled down and skiing normally. He is in transition into a new way to initiate a turn.

That is the reason I certainly cannot diagnose any kind of canting issue. I am pretty good a spotting alignment issues as I have been doing alignments now for two years. The cant wans I have are a wonderful tool.
post #40 of 55
Careful with those cant wands - they may be useful but do not tell the whole story... my dodgy right foot is testament to that....

Nothing beats professional assessment of movement patterns etc...

I wish I had seen the physio years ago about that right side leg/foot....could have saved a fortune in custom footbeds that just don't do the job....

AND my orthotics for everyday could have been better tuned as well...
post #41 of 55
disski the nice thing about the cant wans is that they give a ton of information. The bad thing is that they give a ton of information. If the reader does not really understand everything that the cant wans are telling them much may be missed in the alignment.

The cant wans would have picked up you're foot problem but may have taken some diggin on the part of the interperater to figure it out.

With a poor interperater and foot bed builder 90% of all skiers will go away with cants. With a good interperater and good footbed builder, 90% of skiers will walk away without cants. The ones who do truely need cants have some built in physio problems.

More people have a short leg long leg problem than truely need cants.

I just had a person come to me. The shop did not build footbeds or check cuff alignment. They put this skier in the cant wans and determined that she needed 6 degrees inside on the right ski and 5 degrees inside on the left. She couldn't ski.
post #42 of 55
No Pierre - Surefoot checked canting twice at my instructors request....& came back just fine nice & straight.... which they are... until you try to load my right foot & the poor thing just cannot function properly & my right knee folds inwards...

& remember Surefoot(we call them Sorefoot) had also made me the custom footbeds & sold me the boots I was standing in for that assessment....

My physio tells me my right ankle is pretty much defunct... no function as normal... it is almost solid...

The trap is if you examine my STATIC foot (as bootfitters tend to do) it appears just fine & dandy...

Ditto the knee will even track straight when I am asked to flex it.... I used to fence & being wacked repeatedly with 3 feet of steel tends to enforce learning to KEEP KNEE STRAIGHT WHEN LUNGING... My instructor kept seeing the results in my skiing... but the canting wands told the 'OK' lie.... my knee will stay straight... I will let the hip movement take the strain... when I am loaded under stress I either have to let the knee wander... or drop my hip in & back (ie it cannot rotate forward with knee tracking straight)

Instructor finally hit on the answer when we were talking about it for the umpteenth time ... YEP at least 2 degrees shim out needed...all of a sudden my dodgy hip movement is GONE...
post #43 of 55
Oh & remember I knew all about the dodgy foot & knee from fencing & did try to explain to the Surefoot doods - who were quite sure they knew much more about the whole thing than my podiatrist who had made the orthotic I had in my shoes for 2 of the 3 assessments & the second podiatrist who made the orthotic I wore in my street shoes for the last assessment...
post #44 of 55
dp had been use to back seat, up unweighting, transfering weight to the new outside ski and tail pushing to initiate his turn. Weems has worked enough to get dp to stop immediately dumping weight on the outside ski and moving generally towards the direction of the turn but on this slope, dp is not getting forward enough for offensive turn initiation. The result is denial of movments that he normally uses to initiate a turn without a replacement. He commits with the top half but holds the hips back and inside while bracing against the old outside ski. This is the same as overcanting. His only method of movement is banking and rotation until the hips start to follow and then there is a quick change of edges.
BINGO! That's exactly how I would have described it, if I had Pierre's way with ski terminology. That DEFINITELY was what I saw happen in David's skiing at the time we were being recorded.

Very sharp, Pierre! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #45 of 55
I thought Pierre went a little to deeply into the problem. The skier may have good rotary skills, but his ability to rotate his upper body is better developed.

There is only one example of independent leg rotation. The skier may just be resourceful.

How can the skier initiate with lateral ankle flex when he is banking, hand and shoulder dropping,and his first move is up?

I do agree the the skier is in need of boot work, but if he came to ski, and doesn't want to drop anymore time or money on equipment, I would try to develop his rotary (steering) skills to help him regain a neutral position, and strong inside half(not possible when you rotate into the turn). Once back in the saddle, I think an instructor could address his ankles, and move at initiation, which is rather weak at present.

"I thought lessons in the east were an hour!"
post #46 of 55
mlewis said:
How can the skier initiate with lateral ankle flex when he is banking, hand and shoulder dropping,and his first move is up?
He can't and that is something that I pointed out so I am not sure what you are asking here. These are all defensive movement patterns that take the place of moving into the front seat with the hips and ankles.

The first thing that a good defensive skier usually does when converting to more offensive movement patterns is to stop moving to the outside ski and start banking inward. You combine this with a steeper slope and you will get the rotation and inside edge sticking normally associated with over canting.

I can tell from the amount of foot steering and agility that dp has that this banking/rotating was not his normal modus of skiing prior to EAS2. The banking/rotation is a symptom of change. He skis to good for that to be true.

I wish we had video from the end of ESA2. I might be far more convincing that what I appear to be in writting.
post #47 of 55
Thread Starter 
Back to my initial question..

Any more suggestions, thougts, etc... Pierre and I had a great dialog going on. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about our early banter.

post #48 of 55
Pierre, if there were video from the end of ESA2, you would see that David developed much better turn initiation and much less up/down/torsotwist. Your assessment would prove to be pretty correct. However, I would have to say that David's skiing at the start of ESA2 had a good amount of rotary, a lot of up/down, and a very late transfer to the downhill edge. Weems changed all that in the course of 3 days.
post #49 of 55
Let's see if I can turn 40+ years of aligning cars and 20+ years of aligning skiers into some kind of "movement pattern" analogy.
When you drive a correctly aligned car, where both wheels are pointing straight ahead, down a straight road the "movement pattern" of your hands on the wheel is about like this: Your hands move the wheel slowly and gradually back and forth slightly and the car moves smoothly in a straight line.
Now drive a car where the wheels are toed in(pigeon toed) slightly. The car is directed by the wheel that is straight ahead while the other scrubs. As you turn the wheel towards the "scrubbing" wheel it takes over and "directs" the car causing it to veer slightly in it's direction. The "movement pattern" of the hands on the wheel becomes rapid and jerky as the wheels trade off "directing" car.
To sum it up, smooth and deliberate vs rapid and "herky-jerky". Just as an over edged ski will produce a "wobbly" knee.
The driver ends at the hands and technology begins at the steering wheel. The angle of the wheels(technology) determines what the hands(driver) must do to keep the car on track.
The skier ends in the boots and technology begins with the boots. The rigid angle of the cuff to the sole(ski base/edge)(TECHNOLOGY) has a lot to do with what the knees/shins(skier)must do to keep the skis on track.
What you do inside the boot effects the skier. Canting is dealing with the technology. One will not replace the other. Both are extremely important.
post #50 of 55
I here what you are saying SLATZ but if I put someone in that aligned car who is just learning to drive it I will observe the jerky movements of the steering wheel as well. I would not recommend an alignment for the car based on a new drivers movements of the steering wheel. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #51 of 55
Nor would I.
However the car is a lot easier to drive if it's properly aligned, beginner or "expert".
I might add that after all the numbers line up on the "machine" a road test usually shows the necessity for some "tweaking".
While I can't "road test" a skiers alignment I usually can get some feedback or watch them ski. Whenever I change someone a degree or more (often to the negative, rarely to the positive) the feedback is usually something like, "what a difference".
post #52 of 55
I certainly can't deny that it is possible that my boot alignment might need further tweaking, but I was quite impressed with the care that Jeff Bergeron put into my boot work last spring, including checking witha plumb bob as was mentioned in an earlier post by one of you in this thread. In addition, he did see me ski (not on the skis I used in this video (Atomic R:ex, 167cm), but on slalom skis in a stubby gate course) later in the spring last year, so I suspect that any remaining alignment issues may be minor. My suspicion is that Pierre's diagnosis is the correct one, although I will certainly revisit the alignment issue with Jeff to be sure. Any comments from Weems or Ric? They saw me on the snow throughout the week in Utah, and might further corroborate what Gonzo and Pierre have said. I would love for my problems to be equipment-based, but I think the pilot might be more at fault here!
post #53 of 55
I'm still putting money in Pierre's corner, David! He recited pretty well what I witnessed. I wish everyone had paid this much attention to my videos! Anyway, don't get too concerned over the alignment issues, Weems was very good at spotting that -- remember what a huge improvement it made for Amy?
post #54 of 55
Where did the plumb bob fall?
post #55 of 55
Slatz- I don't recall,exactly, other than that he made a few adjustments, repeated the measurement, and was satisfied that I was in good position. I am naturally quite pidgeon-toed, and it took a lot of fiddling to correct that. I do feel much more balanced over my skis and able to get on edge than ever in the past.

I agree, Gonzo- Weems has an amazingly good eye (as do a lot of the people who are posting here! I am curious- how many times do all of you have to look at that video to pinpoint this stuff? I can certainly notice the more gross movements, but the more subtle things are hard to pick up even when slowing things down and watching over and over. I have been re-reading parts of Ron Lemaster's book which helps. I suppose, of course, that you would say the same about the things I pick up in observing my patients)
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