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I need a drill for... initiate carved turns - tails following tips..

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

I find that I am pivoting with to much front of the boot pressure - so that later in the turn I am washing the tails out.. I am looking for a drill that will have me pivot better at the center of the ski (not at the tip like a step out or brush) to get the tails to following the same arc as the tips..

 

Thanks

 

 

post #2 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by db9 View Post

I find that I am pivoting with to much front of the boot pressure - so that later in the turn I am washing the tails out.. I am looking for a drill that will have me pivot better at the center of the ski (not at the tip like a step out or brush) to get the tails to following the same arc as the tips..

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Take the time to read through the excellent thread on pivot slips in this same forum.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/79108/pivot-slip.

It should give you valuable insight into the dynamics which generate the problems which you describe and a drill which deals with them. 

post #3 of 29

Forget pivoting.  Just tip 'em and rip.  Try just tipping the skis and riding the edge where it takes you without trying to turn at all.  Vary the tipping angle to change the amount of turning you do.  Keep you upper body pointing in your general direction of travel instead of following the skis. Balance along the edge that's cutting a nice grove in the snow.

post #4 of 29

Ghost is right.  Resist the twist.  ANY pivotting means tails won't follow tips. They can't.

post #5 of 29

db9,

 

My question to you is what do you think is causing the tail to pivot around the tip?  There are a few things that can cause this.  One may be pushing the heels away from the body as you turn.  Another may be bending the knees, dropping your weight too far back on the skis and another may be pressing your knees forward into the tongue of the boots causing too much leverage to the tip of the ski.  All three have similar symptoms, but caused by very different movements.

 

Knowing which movement is causing the symptom is important to prescribe a drill to correct it.

 

RW

post #6 of 29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzIkIQa3e0

 

this video really helped me a lot with carving.

 


Edited by T-Square - Tue, 03 Feb 09 02:52:37 GMT
post #7 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post

db9,

 

My question to you is what do you think is causing the tail to pivot around the tip?  There are a few things that can cause this.  One may be pushing the heels away from the body as you turn.  Another may be bending the knees, dropping your weight too far back on the skis and another may be pressing your knees forward into the tongue of the boots causing too much leverage to the tip of the ski.  All three have similar symptoms, but caused by very different movements.

 

Knowing which movement is causing the symptom is important to prescribe a drill to correct it.

 

RW

 

yea, leaning to far foward makes the ski's unstable sometimes. The heal will just slide out from under you while turning and you'll end up not skiing.

post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 

Ghost... wouldn't this lead to at best the turn radius of the side cut? what if you wish to turn tighter than this? Yes it wouldn't be a true carve.

 

Ron...maybe it is more I'm stuggling with the terms and what is happening. I believe that instead of using the middle of the ski and engaging the tip and tail 'evenly' I tend to engage the tip more and I hange onto the front of the boot to much and having the tail wash out. I wish to be more centered.

post #9 of 29

First of all you have to understand how a ski's side cut works, then all becomes clear and easy.  If you put a ski on the floor the side edge of the ski approximates a curve of the given sidecut radius, but if you TIP the ski onto it's edge the middel lifts, and pressing the middle down onto the floor results in a line where the edge meets the floor that approximates a curve of radius smaller than the sidecut radius.  I've had too much Fin Du Monde at the moment to be precise with the math, but it's something like sidecut radius * cos (tipping angle).  Simply put tip the ski more, and the actual radius you will carve will be shorter than the side-cut radius of the ski by a greater factor.  You can easily pure-carve a 4 meter turn on a 13-meter side-cut radius ski simply by tipping the ski to a high enough angle.

 

Cut a piece of paper into an hour-glass shape and see how it bends into a curve as you tip it against a flat surface.  Skis work the same way.

post #10 of 29

db9, as the others mentioned already, forget pivoting( for now perhaps).  Once you start pivoting skis its VERY difficult if not impossible to convert them into arc-to-arc after that.  It makes no difference about whether you pivot on the tongues or not.  

 

Actually, when you initiate your turns you should be on the tongues if you want to arc.

 

Its all about tipping and developing bigger edge angles.  The bigger edge angles will get you the tighter radius.    

 

post #11 of 29

Yea, the ski's are designed to flex and as a carver, they have a big shape like that to basically bend when you lean causing an arc, if your weight is right, they will carve. If your weight is off, they might slide. It shoudln't be that hard if you take some thought behind it, just get them on edge and relax, dont try so hard to do things, cause you'll just do things your not supposto.

I'm no expert carver, but when I first tried carving, I felt very comfortable doing it. By no means was I way up on my edges, but I was letting the ski's do the work for me. which is important. Tis why they are shaped as such.

post #12 of 29

db9,

 

Sorry it took a day to respond to your answer to my question (busy teaching).  You already know that you are flexing the knee forward which causes you to also flex the hip (which moves it downward).  This (as you know) is pressing the tongue of the boot which is over pressuring the tip of the ski causing the tail to wash out. 

 

What you need to do instead of this is flex the ankle joint, which will move the hips forward and keep you balanced in the center of the ski.  You need to start feeling the whole foot and not just the balls of the feet. 

 

There are two drills that if feel would benefit you to start getting the feel of ankle flex vs. knee/hip flex.  The first is on moderate terrain.  While turning, pick up just the tip of the inside ski all the way through the turn while keeping centered on the outside ski.  You should be able to feel your heel as you do this.  Keeping centered on the outside ski will force you to flex your ankle on that ski instead of pressing the tongue.

 

Once you gain a sensation of ankle flex this way, the next drill will help you develope it with both skis on the snow.  Do a series of long carves accost a wide un busy slope where you don't cross the fall line.  Think of pressing your heel down to move your hips forward and start feeling the mounting pressure on the arch of the foot.  Your skis should start tracking along the length of the edges.  This is using ankle flex instead of knee/tongue pressing. 

 

Repeat these two drills every time you ski to regain the sensation so it starts to get more and more integrated into your skiing.

 

RW

post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post

Once you gain a sensation of ankle flex this way, the next drill will help you develope it with both skis on the snow.  Do a series of long carves accost a wide un busy slope where you don't cross the fall line.  Think of pressing your heel down to move your hips forward and start feeling the mounting pressure on the arch of the foot.  Your skis should start tracking along the length of the edges.  This is using ankle flex instead of knee/tongue pressing. 

 

Be careful NOT to push the ski away when "pressing your heel down".  Obviously, that will destroy the carve.

post #14 of 29

db9,

Here is a link to a video that has information that may be helpful.


Edited by T-Square - Tue, 03 Feb 09 17:24:43 GMT
post #15 of 29
Thread Starter 

Ray.. Thanks for the link..

 

 

Ron.. "While turning, pick up just the tip of the inside ski all the way through the turn while keeping centered on the outside ski.  You should be able to feel your heel as you do this."

 

I would feel the heel on the inside foot?

 

I find that the "lighter" I ski the easier it is to adjust - the more dynamic I try to get the more 'tense' I become. Getting into some periods of being static in my motion.. I'm trying to get both - more dynamic and a light touch (if there is such a thing)


Edited by db9 - Tue, 03 Feb 09 23:07:44 GMT
post #16 of 29

 

 

I would feel the heel on the inside foot?

db9,

  No, the outside foot.

 

RW

 

post #17 of 29

Ron,

 

Just to clarify, are you saying that you should be pressuring the heel when you are carving?

post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

Ron,

 

Just to clarify, are you saying that you should be pressuring the heel when you are carving?


 

BigE,

 

Please go back and read the entire post, so you can take it from the context of someone (db9) who is a boot tongue presser.  People that flex the knee forward and also flex the hip instead of flexing the ankle only ever feel the ball of the foot.  The drill is designed for that symptom.  Someone who never feels the heel (or arch) of the foot.  For db9 to flex his ankle, he has to be able to feel his heel pressing down as he flexes his ankle, otherwise he will flex his knee forward instead.

 

The other part of pressing the heel down is to do it to move the hips forward as the ankle flexes.

 

RW

post #19 of 29

Ron,

 

thanks for clarifying that.

post #20 of 29

Great thread guys . . . you're helping me out here.

post #21 of 29

Flex and extend. As you are travelling across the slope you should be in a relaxed flexed position. Just before you initiate your turn go in to a more standing position ensuring that your chins remain in contact with the front of your boot, ensuring that you have equal pressure on both skis you should now start to head down the fall line, as soon as you are facing fown the fall line to initiate a carve put both ski's on their edges towards where you want go and flex back down firmly but not sharply. The more you flex down and pressure the ski the greater the angle of turn. Ensure that you keep equal pressure on both edges and that your body remains central over the middle of the skis. Do not lean. "skiing is like a swan, the top half remains calm whilst below the waterline line the legs do all the work"

 

Ensure that your bum remains over the back of your boots.

post #22 of 29

Holy smokes, Help2ski.... While I want to welcome you to EpicSki, and look forward to your participation in this community, I have to ask: Is this not exactly the same post you wrote also in the thread about inside leg steering (www.epicski.com/forum/thread/80372/need-a-drill-for-inside-leg-steering)?

 

Since many of the technical elements you have described are controversial, and all have been discussed in great detail here EpicSki over the years, I must ask again: please go deeper with your descriptions. Please describe why you think your movements are good advice for the particular purpose of the topic of this thread (or the other one). You have described causes; what are the specific effects of the movements you recommend?

 

Do not lean? Equal pressure? Traverse in a flexed position? Stand up before initiating a turn? Flex firmly? "Ensure that your bum remains over the back of your boots"? Like this?

 

Need more depth!

 

Best regards,

Bob

 

>>>>

quote: Flex and extend. As you are travelling across the slope you should be in a relaxed flexed position. Just before you initiate your turn go in to a more standing position ensuring that your chins remain in contact with the front of your boot, ensuring that you have equal pressure on both skis you should now start to head down the fall line, as soon as you are facing fown the fall line to initiate a carve put both ski's on their edges towards where you want go and flex back down firmly but not sharply. The more you flex down and pressure the ski the greater the angle of turn. Ensure that you keep equal pressure on both edges and that your body remains central over the middle of the skis. Do not lean. "skiing is like a swan, the top half remains calm whilst below the waterline line the legs do all the work"

 

Ensure that your bum remains over the back of your boots.

<<<< 

 

post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 

Ron,

I spent the better part of the day  (weekend past) skiing boiler plate (fun eh..) I continually made an effort to stay off the front of the boot but feeling the heel. Kinda worked but I 'felt' a couple of things..

 

1) trying this (feeling the heel) in a short turn - I found that I tended to be 'back' and wasn't effective skiing. I know the drill was in longer turns - I was playing ..

 

2) In long turns I found that 'feeling the heel' resulted in the feeling that I was tensing up - pushing the heel didn't so much as result in having the hip come forward - but more the feeling that I was pushing away - think of pushing away from a table on a chair with wheels - resulting in lack of ankle flex or movement in the later stages of the turn (basically I would stop moving the ankle ..

 

 

 

 

post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by db9 View Post

Ron,

I spent the better part of the day  (weekend past) skiing boiler plate (fun eh..) I continually made an effort to stay off the front of the boot but feeling the heel. Kinda worked but I 'felt' a couple of things..

 

1) trying this (feeling the heel) in a short turn - I found that I tended to be 'back' and wasn't effective skiing. I know the drill was in longer turns - I was playing ..

 

2) In long turns I found that 'feeling the heel' resulted in the feeling that I was tensing up - pushing the heel didn't so much as result in having the hip come forward - but more the feeling that I was pushing away - think of pushing away from a table on a chair with wheels - resulting in lack of ankle flex or movement in the later stages of the turn (basically I would stop moving the ankle ..

 

 

 

 

db9,
 

 

In that case, your hips are too far back.  Work on staying more over the center of the ski.  Some people do better with flexing the ankle by lifting the toes up and trying to lift the top of the foot to the top of the boot as they center over the middle of the ski.

 

Try this to get the sensation of ankle flex.  Without ski boots on, hold on to something steady.  Stand on just your heels (like walking on just your heels).  That is ankle flex.  Now keep them flexed while you move your hips forward so your whole foot contacts the floor.  That's where you should be while your ankles are fully flexed over the skis (through the smile part of the turn and ready to extend into the new turn).

 

RW

post #25 of 29

 db9

 

To be perfectly honest, I find it doubtful that your tails are washing out due to being too far forward on your boots.  If so, then you are probably doing half a dozen other things wrong that need to be addressed first.

 

I feel you are possibly getting some misdirected advice here.  Projecting your hips diagonally during turn init in order to keep your hips more forward is desirable pretty much always.  If your outside leg is extended, then in order to project your hip forward, your ankle will need to be flexed and you WILL be pressuring the tongue of your boot.  SOME joint has to be used to move your hip forward.  Your leg is straight and if it were bent it would only move your hips back, not forward.  Flexing the ankle is the only way to move it forward at that point.  Stand up right now and keep your knees only very slightly flexed.  Now move your hip forward without changing the flex in your knee.  How do you do it?  You can only do it by flexing your ankles which means pressuring the tongue of the boot.

 

That is not the reason your tails are washing out.

 

If the tails are washing out, there is something else going on.  Please send us video.  Speculation has been made here and I feel it may be counterproductive for you.

 

If your boot is setup properly for fore-aft, then as you extend your leg into the new turn, you should feel the arch of your foot, possibly the back of the arch.  NOT your heels.  If you need heel lifts or boot work, you might feel the balls of your feet, but that should still not cause  your tails to wash out, it would just make it more difficult to remain stacked is all since standing on the balls of your feet is more strenuous than standing on the entire base of your foot.  Your fore-aft balance is determined by the location of your hips relative to your feet.  You can definitely be aft-balanced and feel the balls of your feet and vice versa with heels.  Your boot setup can effect things too.  Needless to say, I find it extremely unlikely that the only reason your tails are washing out is because you are too far forward.  Most skiers have to work hard to get more forward.

 

Wash out occurs because you didn't engage the edges or destroyed your edge in some way, quite likely from pushing or extending too hard or abruptly or skiing with too much energy and not enough finesse, using too much rotary movement, etc.

 

Please provide video and we can give you better MA.

 

 

post #26 of 29
Thread Starter 

Sorry,

Been away for a bit.. not skiing though..

 

I'll like to post a video at some point but since I don't have a video camera it will be a challenge to do so.

 

thank you for taking the time..

 

 

post #27 of 29

To help with your hip placement and general form while carving (not necessarily your exact problem, but it will help regardless), do the teapot drill.

 

first, lose the poles for a couple of runs.  Then as your carving place your downhill hand on your hip and push your hip uphill fairly hard. Your other hand should be fully extended up (sort of like a nazi salute, but not) and reaching forward/downhill (the two should be the same, roughly) This will get your legs out from under you, creating edge angle and engaging a carve and the reaching will help keep your weight forward. 

 

keep switching hand positions as you go down the mountain obv.  for added affect you should sing "I'm a little teapot, short and stout..." as loud as you can on the way down.

 

it may look odd but it forces your body into the correct position to get angulation and carve smoothly.

 

For general upperbody movement (eg. lack thereof) take both your poles and hold them loosely in front of you, about chest high, and perfectly horizontal and perpendicular to the fall line.  Now ski a run agressively carving, focusing on keeping the poles as level and as straight as you can.

post #28 of 29

Hi to initiate a good carve turn try extending, keeping your chin just in touch with the front of your boot, as you are facing down the slope, put your skis on their edges flexing back down. The more you flex down the greater the angle of turn. This needs to be a smooth motion not suddent, so keeping your ski's shoulder width apart imagine you have a large balloon between your legs as you extend up imagine you are squeezing the balloon, as you come back down you are realising that pressure. Carving is all about smooth motion. Hope this helps.

post #29 of 29

I find that going back to green slopes and practising railroad tracks really helps get your lower legs working, a common problem is to achieve all your edge angle by dropping your hips back and into the turn, this is hard work on the muscles and makes initiating the new turn tough. Really focus on keeping your skis and leg shafts parallel with your hips over your feet and roll your skis from edge to edge. You want to be on an easy green where speed control isn't an issue.

 

If you then take a ski off and try that tipping movement, you'll really see how you are doing, again think about keeping a solid centred stance with your hips over your feet. If you start throwing your upper body or hips about, you'll soon fall over!

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