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Why such a HUGE emphasis on carving? - Page 2

post #31 of 48
snowdancer. did Uncle Milty ever tell you to ski like a Kangaroo? His approach to skiing is quite fun, if you can stay on his wavelength.
post #32 of 48
Since very few people knew how to carve 5-6 years ago on old style skis, what did they do? Just putz around? I've seen many skier making great turns, short and long, for fifty years.

post #33 of 48
I guess what we did back then wasn't carving just some sort of attempt at sliding the direction that the skis went with out skidding.

Hmmm is that right?

Wonder what we should call that? can we copyright the term?
post #34 of 48
Sorry I forgot the smiley. I was being silly. Yes I know it was carving. It took me years to figure out what carving felt like and that was years before the first "parabolic" ski came out. I started my carving journey on Dynamic VR17 FM GS skis. !
post #35 of 48
Like I said - downhill skis taller than my arm could reach carved perfectly well 15 years ago. The new technology has simply opened up a wider variety of carved turn shapes to us.
post #36 of 48
Speaking of $, it looks like Herman's insurance will pay him millions...article in Ski Racing. Crappy lottery tho.
post #37 of 48
Thread Starter 
People -

Thanks again for your latest group of replies and comments to my question.

You guys must be able to get on the web a lot more often than I can and type a lot faster (ie, I'm overwhelmed again). I want to reply, but I'm busy over the weekend, so I'll get to it as soon as I can.
post #38 of 48
Matteo, reading your post, I am even more mystified by what I learned in Bormio. Perhaps I temporarily went back in a Time Machine.
post #39 of 48
In answer to your question, this was also odd, they didn't use #s. They just said it was an "Intermediate Ski Class"
post #40 of 48
Family Skier Man raises an interesting point that is quickly becoming a problem on slopes now.

>>However, my problem is that like most average skiers, most of my skiing is done on groomed eastern trails on either crowded weekends or holidays. If I carve my turns in a situation like this, I'm flying ACROSS the hill at very high speed (ie, across the paths of other skiers) and this just isn't safe. My actual downhill progress might be very slow and controlled, but I'm darting back and forth across the hill like some sort of crazed bug. << -FSM

It used to be skiing down you could very reliably predict how someone was turning. (this enabled flying by them in a tuck...oh..did i say that?) People stayed pretty much in the same rythm so you could predict their path and avoid them. Now you have to know what someone on the other side of the trail is doing- and even then you never know when they'll dig in the edges and shoot across the trail. Modern equipment enables us to suddenly alter the turn radius and accelerate rapidly across the trail. This requires open space. I know of several collisions that were fairly serious caused by two skiers or skier/boarder who "met in the middle" and neither saw the other.
That's one problem with blades/short carving skis. Those hand touching the snow ripping carved turns that are so much fun take up a lot of trail space. Then when you get a group of people skiing like that...watch out (esp. if you're in the group!).

What's that trail at Mt. Snow that's like 100 yards wide? (well...) There's a great place to make crop circles of 30m radius on carvers!

So FSM, you've already gotten the answer that you can release the carve at any time and skid if you want. That was one of the complaints early on about shaped skis. (Todd? where's that paper you wrote?) That they locked you into a turn.
I've talked to someone who tested the very early Parabolics from Elan at Okemo. ('92? or '93? not sure when). They had these super shapes in lengths of 200 and(?) 205cm. Apparently they really tended to lock into the turn and didn't want to release. -Scary.
post #41 of 48
The wide, wide trail on Mount Snow is called Snowdance. Of course, they now allow recreational snowmobiling on that trail.
post #42 of 48
Hey, I remember those boards! Bill Irwin gave me and Scar Ward a pair to try at an event at Keystone early in November about 10 seasons ago. SCX's at about a 203 or so. There was about 200 gang members and two GS courses on School Marm....and neither one of us could turn until about 8th gear!!
Don't think those puppies went into production! I don't know how I got down in one piece!<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Robin (edited September 10, 2001).]</FONT>
post #43 of 48
Thread Starter 
1> Pierre eh!: "...You could ... go to a ski
1> that has a much narrower tail than tip."

1> JimL and Bob Barnes: "...check your base
1> bevel"

Well people, you are right on the mark on both counts: (a) My skis are Elan SCX's. I measured their tail width as almost exactly the same as their tip width (to within a mm or two); and (b) I held a metal straight edge up to the base, and I can't see any wedge of light coming through between the metal edges and the metal ruler. If there is a bevel angle there, it is very, very small. Now, the question is what to do. ... Humm, the bases do have some decent gouges in them, so I could use that as an excuse on the home front. New skis? Nah - too much money. Maybe some new, used skis at the fall ski swaps.

2> Bob Barnes: "...speed control versus direction control"

Mr. Barnes, I've read and re-read your post many times, and I'm not sure if I totally agree with your comments about the merits of skidding (speed control with no direction control) versus carving (direction control with little possibility of quick speed reductions when needed).

I agree that I have seen beginner skiers and snowboarders do exactly what you described. Both will come straight down the fall line in a perfectly straight line. The skiers will often be in a weak snowplow which is indeed limiting their speed, but they couldn't make a turn from that position if they tried (sort of like what fearless 6 year olds do). The beginner snowboarders are doing essentially the same thing, with their boards 90 degrees to the fall line, too scared to turn, so they too couldn't deviate from their path to avoid a collision if their lives depended on it (ie, exactly as you said).

On the other hand, at least these people "without direction control" are keeping their speed to some modest level, and they are "staying in lane", so that if the skiers learned a hockey stop, and the snowboarders learned their own version of the hockey stop, everything would be just fine. At least these people are predictable, and when they do run into something, its usually not at too high a speed because they are not crossing paths with other people, and if they get going too fast, they usually don't have the skill or confidence to handle it, so the usually sit down or fall over before they hit someone at really high speeds.

The other extreme of the spectrum are the people doing short radius carving (like I learned to do over the past couple of years). Yes, I can do fast direction changes more or less on a dime, but (1) I'm still carrying all my speed and (b)with everyone around me doing the same thing, its sometimes total chaos on the hill and so I usuall have to just stop wait until the traffic thins down.

It sounds like the obvious solution is to blend the two in any ratio on shaped skis, just as I used to be able to do on my straight skis. Hopefully, the suggestion for equipment with a narrower tail and a proper base bevel will solve my own problems in this area.

Got to go - its getting really late.

Thank you all,


PS - Well, I'll be... When my message was posted to the end of this thread, I just noticed the recent messages from Tog and Robin about some older Elan skis.

Tog: "...the very early Parabolics from Elan at Okemo. ('92? or '93? not sure when). They had these super shapes in lengths of 200 and(?) 205cm. Apparently they really tended to lock into the turn and didn't want to release. -Scary...."

I think I may have the very skis that they are describing. Mine are red Elan SCX monoblocks that I bought used a few ago, so they could easily be of the vintage that Tog and Robin are describing. They are almost as long and stiff as my straight skis. This may be exactly the reason why I get locked into a carve and find it somewhat hard to skid when I need to. I guess now I have a real reason to pick up some newer equipment - grin.

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by FamilyManSkier (edited September 10, 2001).]</FONT>
post #44 of 48
Hey, I rented some SCX Monoblocks for a day at Mammoth a few years ago, and they were a blast! And I had no trouble with blending skidding with the carving. They released just fine at the end of the turn. And making turns down a fairly steep narrow catwalk was
so much fun that I had to do it a few times. I would have bought some, but the edge grip was really lacking on ice. Too bad. Anyways, don't blame those skis!
post #45 of 48
The skis we are discussing were prototypes in lengths unavailable (usually) to the general public, ie. in excess of 200cm...I doubt the ones you had were similar.
post #46 of 48

Yes you do. Skis have come a LONG way since the first new shapes came out. Skis have changed so much recently that models 3 years old are pretty much outdated in relation to the performance characteristics coming out today. Heck, those K2 Fours that just came out in the late 90's have already joined their brethren from the 70s.
post #47 of 48
Came to this discussion a bit late, perhaps. My thoughts on the original post. "All or nothing". Why dont you try this; stand on a slope, skis at right angles to the fall line. Using hip, knee, and ankles, move the ski to a higher or lower edge. Assign a number to the angle of the ski to the snow. I use 3 for the highest edge, 1 for the flattest edge. My turns thus go 1 2 3 2 1 as I roll onto, then off the edges. The higher in the turn I can feel the 1, the better. Obviously, not every turn goes to a 3 edge, but for practise I use the full spectrum. Remember to use the ankles for fine-tuning the amount of edge.
Also, to control speed, look for more of a C-shaped turn.
If anyone else has said approximately the same thing, I do apologise! [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #48 of 48
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by milesb:
[QB]Hey, I rented some SCX Monoblocks for a day at Mammoth a few years ago, and they were a blast! And I had no trouble with blending skidding with the carving. They released just fine at the end of the turn...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another 'Miles' here. I also demoed the red SCXs a few years ago and had a blast. Especially with no poles down the groomers. But then I took them up Jupiter in PC. Big mistake!! : It was interesting getting down the mountain.

But yea, family man, I'd say the diagnosis is absolutly correct...you can skid them, but they are really designed for carving, and IMO just aren't going to transition as well back and forth. (All other things begin equal, it is the case that straighter skis skid more preditably, is it not?) For someone working on technique and skiing on crowded icy eastern slopes, there are probably better choices. Bring the SCX's along for some fun carving, but beg, borrow or steal new skis for everyday use.

That said; I'll bet you discover that after your time on the SCX's your technique has improved immeasurably on any ski, as you've discovered how to really carve a ski at any speed!

FWIW some reviews do note the ability of skis in skidding turns as well as carving. Inside tracks, for insance rates skidding as well as carving skis -- but most more all-mountain oriented skis should do just fine I would think.

Demo a pair this season and let us know what you discover! Ultimitly, once you establish a bit more of a preceived comfort/control zone, I'll bet you carve every chance you get.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 08, 2001 03:02 PM: Message edited 3 times, by Lodro ]</font>
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