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Who thinks Epicski v2.0 is an IMPROVEMENT over v1.0? - Page 3

post #61 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post

Let me try out this thought, which occurred to me just now:

 

Isn't it a good thing for a community to be asked to co-develop their website rather than being plopped into a website that others designed for them?

 

 

*Of course, we could have stayed with the old website, but eventually the people making it go financially and operationally would burn out or simply get bored...and then who will gather the seed, and plant the crop, and harvest the grain, and mill it into flour, and mix the dough, and bake the bread that we all like to eat? 


Edited by nolo - Mon, 02 Feb 09 18:50:36 GMT

Well I'd like to break my reply up to answer each of your points, but the software doesn't allow it. :(

 

"Isn't it a good thing.........others designed for them?" 

 

No it's not.  Asking a community to make suggestions to improve something is very cool.  Asking them to co-develop it.  No thanks, no time for that.  We had a working site that didn't require us to de-bug it.

 

"....financially....." 

 

Of course, no question that you need to find ways to pay for the site.  None of what has been said or discussed has mentioned how the site is being paid for more now (except ads and we had ads before.) 

 

I recall discussion of different levels of membership, more premium content, etc.  As you know I've always been a Supporter.  The community needs to support the site.  Who are you saying is supporting the new site now?  Will they support it if usage of the site goes down?

 

I can clearly see why the huddler venture was very appealing, and I can understand why a rush to judgement happened, because without it they too would have been working for nothing. 

 

My fear now is that instead of only the owners getting burned out, now the members will too.  Too much wrong right now.  I'd rather be "plopped into" something that was mature then something that was close, but no cigar.

post #62 of 165

It was just a thought ex post facto, but you know, I think it's really the crux of the matter--

are "we" a community or are "you" customers? You want to be treated as a customer, and we made the mistake of treating you as part of a community to be consulted.


close, but no cigar

You know what Freud said about cigars...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (but close means you're getting there).


 

post #63 of 165

I guess I'm more used to dealing with workarounds and do not see the site issues and minor inconveniences as that big of a deal. Especially seeing the huge potential once things get dialed in and polished and being a little familiar with the overall intent.

 

Maybe the release was a little early, but despite the lack of civility and tolerance with a lot of the reactions, it surely shows how passionate users are about what conveniences are important to them. As painful as the process appears, this should ultimately result in a customized site by the members and for the members.

 

Hang in there crew and hopefully the negativity will subside as members see their concerns being addressed........and they can respond to the changes and maybe add further refinement suggestions.

 

Hopefully a new and positive synergy and stronger community will develop.

 


Edited by Alpinord - Mon, 02 Feb 09 20:15:08 GMT
post #64 of 165

I agree with Alpinord.

 

Think, for a few moments.......what Microsoft goes through each time they release a new OS.....................

 

Now, is Vista better than Windows 95................

 

Is Vista better than ME......................................

 

Is Vista better than 98........................................

 

Is Vista better than XP home...............................

 

Service packs address consumer desires, as well as faults.

 

Consider what Bill's team goes through each release, tough times, yet they persevere.

 

Hang in there folks, it will only get better. Huddler ain't no joke, and EpicSki views all our desires and compaints....sincerely.

 

Hang in there, its but a short time before this thing flys, high and well.


Edited by Snowfan - Mon, 02 Feb 09 20:51:51 GMT
post #65 of 165

One thing I like is the In-line threaded PM display window.    Much better.

post #66 of 165

Ill say this much, there are many ski related bulletin boards on the Internet.  The main thing that made me choose this one over the others was the ease of use and the traffic.   I can only assume that one asset that brought in the high traffic was due to the ease of use.   

 

While the people are what make the community, if there is no where appropriate to convene then you will find your community will fail to commune.   This software should not have put into use before several of the basic BB functions were sorted out.   Things that we have always lived without (wiki, reviews etc.) are the things that should have been added later rather than sooner.  

 

While I know it has been much investment by the powers that be to make this move, whoever the director(s) is (are), made a mistake, the decision seems to have been overhasty.  In light of the outcry of the supporters, members and even moderators, it might be better for EpicSki  if the old software was put back on-line until this thing is properly sorted out. 

 

I have seen more than one very large and powerful forum fall apart after what the administration deemed was a great change, members complained the admin insisted that the new way was better...the end result was that the discontent members that were tech savvy made their own forum....and everyone just moved there....the original forum ceased to be.  Just my .02



Edited by Richie-Rich - Mon, 02 Feb 09 21:10:46 GMT
post #67 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
Quote:

 

Welcome to the Internet, Garrett. Apparently, you haven't been around it very long. Or software for that matter. Used Vista, yet?

 

..... ad hominem or other such personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Anyone see something hypocritical in these two statements being in the same post?
 

 

Insulting Garrett does little to fix the shortcoming of the new format.  And pointing out that Vista is also a disappointing upgrade is irrelevant.  Not a good example to emulate.  If you don't want our opinion, just close all these threads.

 

 

ssh and Garrett,

Please continue the back and forth as it's most entertaining! 

Really ssh, mentioning Vista as some sort of 'let's lower the bar to the ground' technique of discussion is not going to work.  It doesn't play well out here, in fact it just illustrates how you're getting hammered in this discussion. So far, it's playing like John McCain's statement that "The economy is strong" at precisely the time it's falling apart.

Also, "They're not bugs, they're missing features"? Dude, have you read that again? I think there is something disturbing to people about the statement.

 

You're not being insulted, the results seen are being insulted.  Isn't that what feedback is about?  When everyone hates something, it's best not to pull out your expertise label and say it's really ok.  No one buys that and it just looks silly and out of touch with reality.

 

Basically what we've got here is a little like the guy who takes the family car on as a project while the wife and kids are out of town for the weekend.  There was nothing wrong with the vehicle, he just wanted to upgrade everything and had everything planned out for months for the weekend install.

So Friday night he starts on the install, changing the engine management system to an open system that's fully user programmable and used by race teams.  The brakes get upgraded with huge calipers, the integrated sound/phone system goes in favor of a new navigation system, and there's other interior cosmetic upgrades.

The first huge unforseen problem comes when it becomes apparent the present wheels won't fit with the new brake calipers. There's no way to fix this by monday, but somehow in a stroke of genius, he realizes that the temporary spare tire 'donut' wheel from a Taurus will fit with a little work. The machinist who does the work is impressed by the inspired workaround. The wheels are in differing shades of rust but that will get taken care of late Sunday night.

Monday morning comes, the wife sees the car she's supposed to drive now with four rusty donut wheels.  "I'm supposed to drive that thing?"  She liked the car, it was good looking, reliable had an integrated phone and a place to put her coffee.  The daughter hears the commotion, comes to the garage takes one look at it and begins her emergency texting proceedures that are used for life's most embarassing moments.

Once in the car the wife ask's how to plug the phone in and is told "you can't".  When she finds out her cupholder has been removed to fit the new not as yet functioning nav system, she's even less happy and throws her coffee cup out the window onto the lawn.

 

They barely make it down the street when the engine shuts off because she's exceeded 4k rpms and the engine right now goes into fail safe mode.  He forgot to mention it because she never revs that high anyway but now without the handsfree phone she left it in 1st gear too long. The daughter actually braves the cold in her inappropriate winter wear to document the embarassing moment.  Everyone agrees they won't be driving into the school entrance  which is a good thing because with the donut wheels the car is too low to fit over the curb. Then they start discussing how much they liked the old car.

 

In terms of the community of car modifiers, his achievement is fantastic. They're amazed by what he pulled off.  So what if it lacks a certain functionality, that can be fixed eventually but the performance improvements will be worth it.  In terms of the community of the family who use the car, it's a disaster because of the lack of functionality and current hideous looks.  Who knows where it'll end up.

post #68 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post

I agree with Alpinord.

 

Think, for a few moments.......what Microsoft goes through each time they release a new OS.....................

 

Now, is Vista better than Windows 95................

 

Is Vista better than ME......................................

 

Is Vista better than 98........................................

 

Is Vista better than XP home...............................

 

Service packs address consumer desires, as well as faults.

 

Consider what Bill's team goes through each release, tough times, yet they persevere.

 

Hang in there folks, it will only get better. Huddler ain't no joke, and EpicSki views all our desires and compaints....sincerely.

 

Hang in there, its but a short time before this thing flys, high and well.


Edited by Snowfan - Mon, 02 Feb 09 20:51:51 GMT

Yikes touchy subject.

 

95 (older) is better than ME, 98 (older) is better than ME, 2000 (older) is better than ME, XP is better than them all. Vista is worse than XP; so much so that this is why MS already has a new OS to be released and most PC manufacturers allow the comsumer to choose if they want XP or Vista when buying a new machine.  

 

Vista and ME are failures.  Newer is not better in every case.


Edited by Richie-Rich - Mon, 02 Feb 09 21:22:20 GMT
post #69 of 165

Definitely prefer a color background over the white.  The forum auto-format column width needs to be wider. 

 

And I like having more text available to scan quickly.  This style requires more scrolling.  NG.  TGR is more user-friendly right now. IMHO.

post #70 of 165

Tog, I enjoyed the story and analogy.  (I wonder if I spelled that right?)

 

You forgot the part where dad gets all defensive about his modifications and declares them the best thing since sliced bread....

 

Don't make me pull this car over !





Edited by Cirquerider - Mon, 02 Feb 09 21:40:02 GMT
post #71 of 165

Opinion respected Richie...hope your arm and shoulder are feeling better.

post #72 of 165

I agree.  I think the biggest cause of all the additional scrolling is putting the section about the user ABOVE the posting instead of to the left.  I'd like to see that moved off to the left again as before.  I'd also like less than five inches to the right of the threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dgudaitis View Post

Definitely prefer a color background over the white.  The forum auto-format column width needs to be wider. 

 

And I like having more text available to scan quickly.  This style requires more scrolling.  NG.  TGR is more user-friendly right now. IMHO.

 

post #73 of 165

Oh, I forgot to mention, too much white space. I did a quick check; yes, google news and yahoo's main page both WORK. Check them out and you can see effective page layouts.

post #74 of 165

I dont like the background. To little contrast. I like the post box but want my smiles accesable in more a drop down than a down load type thing? I dont like the light blue letters on a white background! The font for the menues are to small also. Needs more colour! Other than that it took some gtting used to thats for sure. Its mostly poor contrast hard to scan the page and pick things out compared to before.

post #75 of 165

I agree with the comment that change is painful but I think the redesigned site is a good start. I've also spent considerable time with IT department upgrades and it was always a struggle. We concentrated on the basics like: did the invoice print with the right quantity and price or did the customer get their statement? The fact that we're continuing to discuss this on EPIC is an indication to me that the conversion was relatively painless and successful.

I like the look. I prefer black on white print to shades of blue. Maybe there are other colors that are even easier to read but for my old eyes the new format is easier for me.

It will probably be months before I find a use for the Wiki feature but I'm sure it's got value or those of you in the know would not have worked so hard to get it included in this version of the software.

My ieSpell works just like it always did.

I seldom could make the quote feature work on the old site so I'm still batting 1,000 on that one.

Same goes for all the little smiley faces. Obviously some folks like them a lot and I hope those who want them will be able to use them soon. Out of all the books, newspapers and other websites I read/visit each week EPIC was the only one with all the little animated PacMan figures so they're not a necessity for good communication.

Like I said at the beginning, I think it's a good start and with all the good suggestions from our subscribers I'm sure it will continue to improve over time.Hey, what's so hard about the PacMan guy? If I can do it anyone can!

post #76 of 165

At the risk of looking out of place at the party, I'm going to say the I, for one, like the new site!

 

But I happen to like crisp white backgrounds, fixed width columns and small fonts.

 

I remember using the GNUS news reader in EMACS on my old Sparcstation to browse the Usenet boards and thought I was in heaven.  I could even download uuencoded binaries ... way cool!

 

Man ... great content (rec.skiing, rec.skiing.alpine) ... but I would never (ever) go back! 

 

(Check out http://groups.google.com/group/rec.skiing.alpine/ if you want some Old School.  My favorite recent topic was "MALAYALAM ACTRESS HOT VIDEOS".)

 

I've been in tech my entire career and I have 2 maxims I always live by ...

  • Software is ALWAYS released early
  • Features are developed from the purely ego-centric point of view of the developer ("It's what I would want") as opposed to what any community consensus would ask for (in spite of the best effort of some very talented product managers)

 

The corrolaries to the previous maxims are

  • I you wait for software to be ready, it will never be released (there is ALWAYS one last bug, you can't make EVERYONE happy, etc. etc.)
  • Developers WANT their software to be used and really (really, really) want to give you something you will be really happy about.

 

Basically it doesn't matter how many feature requirements documents are written or how many testers you've got evaluating your product.  Software never truly begins to evolve until it is released "into the wild".

 

The fastest way to advance a new piece of software is to offer constructive, positive suggestions backed by use cases (a good reason to do it) and an impact statement (it will affect X number of users).

 

Developers are pretty proud of their code and generally don't like abuse hurled at their offspring.  Which brings up another rule of software development ...

  • The position of your bug or feature in the queue is inversely proportional to the amount of whining you do.

 

I like EpicSki v2.0.  I see huge potential in some of the features and a lot of stuff that I never saw in the old software. 

 

I see some gaps as well.  Some of what I've seen seems to stem from the fact the Epic is the first truly large scale site handled by the Huddler team ... things like subscriptions need work on a site where people have 1000's of subscriptions.  There are also some little things missing that I liked having.  But none of this stops Huddler from having something new and exciting to offer in the way of community software.

 

We could choose to be just another vBulletin site or we can choose to march forward into a pretty cool new world.  It will have growing pains, but just like raising your kids the rewards can pretty great as well.

 

I say bring on v2.0 and lets see what the Huddler team, management and the community can do!

 

BTW ... in spite of all the whining about spellcheck earlier in this thread, I note that it's there and working today (at least in the full screen editor).

 

 


 

 

post #77 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post

Tog, I enjoyed the story and analogy.  (I wonder if I spelled that right?)

 

You forgot the part where dad gets all defensive about his modifications and declares them the best thing since sliced bread....

 

Don't make me pull this car over !

 

According to,  http://www.spellchecker.net/spellcheck/ , you did spell that right even though it looks wrong to me.
Yes, Dad becomes defensive.  To the online modifying community he's become something of a legend yet to his family he's a goat who just screwed something  up that used to work just fine.
In terms of the above article I think we've violated a few:
<< Start where you are. Don't assume that you are starting from scratch. Determine where the organization is before making drastic changes.>>
<< Improve what you have >>
Most seem to disagree on that point here it seems.
<< Make it work or throw it out. During audits, you may discover broken or obsolete processes. Pieces that are out of whack with reality need to be adjusted. In some cases, you just need to get rid of them. Doing so builds strong credibility for the PMO. [project management organization] >>
sorry for the look, can't edit the above nor quote it so I used the > to indicate quotes. Couldn't get rid of the bold either on my point above.
Unfortuneately, no one is real inspired by this to create wikis, which seems to be the main reason we have the changes.
Technology in itself is useless, it's what people do with it that matter.  The fax machine is pretty old now and it's technology is pretty basic.  Nicholas Negroponte in his Being Digital book in '95 talked about how ridiculous it was because it wasn't digital but analog.  We're still using them though because they work, are easy to use, and are reliable.  Those factors make it still a viable technology for some stuff, especially when the computer keeps crashing and you have to keep learning to use it.
 
 
post #78 of 165

I'm madly making wikis...and having fun doing it!

post #79 of 165

Can you say BETA? Any software can progress at a WAY faster rate when it is released for immediate feedback by the masses. A small controlled user group just doesn't give way to the trends that will show themselves when going live.

post #80 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldEasternSkier View Post

 

I've been in tech my entire career and I have 2 maxims I always live by ...

  • Software is ALWAYS released early
  • Features are developed from the purely ego-centric point of view of the developer ("It's what I would want") as opposed to what any community consensus would ask for (in spite of the best effort of some very talented product managers)

 

The corrolaries to the previous maxims are

  • I you wait for software to be ready, it will never be released (there is ALWAYS one last bug, you can't make EVERYONE happy, etc. etc.)
  • Developers WANT their software to be used and really (really, really) want to give you something you will be really happy about.

 

Basically it doesn't matter how many feature requirements documents are written or how many testers you've got evaluating your product.  Software never truly begins to evolve until it is released "into the wild".

 

The fastest way to advance a new piece of software is to offer constructive, positive suggestions backed by use cases (a good reason to do it) and an impact statement (it will affect X number of users).

 

Developers are pretty proud of their code and generally don't like abuse hurled at their offspring.  Which brings up another rule of software development ...

  • The position of your bug or feature in the queue is inversely proportional to the amount of whining you do.

 

I like EpicSki v2.0.  I see huge potential in some of the features and a lot of stuff that I never saw in the old software. 

 

I see some gaps as well.  Some of what I've seen seems to stem from the fact the Epic is the first truly large scale site handled by the Huddler team ... things like subscriptions need work on a site where people have 1000's of subscriptions.  There are also some little things missing that I liked having.  But none of this stops Huddler from having something new and exciting to offer in the way of community software.

 

We could choose to be just another vBulletin site or we can choose to march forward into a pretty cool new world.  It will have growing pains, but just like raising your kids the rewards can pretty great as well.

 

I say bring on v2.0 and lets see what the Huddler team, management and the community can do!

 

BTW ... in spite of all the whining about spellcheck earlier in this thread, I note that it's there and working today (at least in the full screen editor).

 

  

 Good points.  The problem is not so much the bugs, but the different look and the missing features.  In some ways the changes are saying, "hey, you know you're old forum blew, this new one is much better".  The problem is, people liked the old forum, so the changes are not additive.  They may be "on another planet" of functionality but to many it just seems like a future promise that has little meaning right now.  We haven't even discussed the ads.  The changes give the wrong impression that it was all done for more commercial space and targeted advertising.

 

post #81 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Unfortunately, no one is real inspired by this to create wikis, which seems to be the main reason we have the changes.

 Too busy reading incessant, non-productive posts like this....however entertaining....I guess.

 

(Finally 'sorta' got the multi-stepped Google Spellchecker to correctly spell 'unfortunately' for ya'. What's up with the green and underlining?)

 

It felt good to go out for a ski and get away from this a bit. Skiing is highly recommended, BTW, and good for the soul.

 

It occurred to me that with all the REAL & SERIOUSLY BAD STUFF happening around the world, people get more upset about their electronic connections and entertainment than anything, so it seems. Interesting set of priorities we have.

 

It does seem that there are plenty of users typing away in various threads related to skiing which is definitly a positive sign.

 


Edited by Alpinord - Mon, 02 Feb 09 22:45:55 GMT
post #82 of 165

When I upgraded from the old MS Office to the new one, it had changed from drop down menus to ribbons ( what the h**l).  After using it for awhile I realized that it was a better system but I had to poke around and use the help menu to get comfortable with the new software.  I still have to use help and generally think afterwards that "ya, that makes sense and is easy enough to do".

Using Tog's car analogy (spelling is correct) --When dad does get the old car up and running with the new 20" wheels it is going to be the coolest car on the street and everybody will wonder why dad hadn't done this conversion sooner.  Having been a dad in that sort of situation the initial reaction is never change a thing or wait for a better time, but how do we grow and make things better if we don't hang it out there and risk the ridicule of the wife and kids?

What amazes me with this transition that the bulk of the posts are about skiing so the new site is still working and allowing people passionate about skiing to share that.  Give it some time and we will wonder why didn't we go to this format sooner.

 

As Bob Barnes says about learning new things in skiing "Change is strange" but it becomes part of our turns and we are better for it.  We need to accept strange for awhile and will be better for it.

post #83 of 165

checked in today unaware of the change in the works. may not be as regular a participant as many here but visiting this site has become a part of my skiing 'life' over past 3 years. I find the new design a terrible move into the overly busy, commercially aggressive style that plague us. it's cold and obnoxious. see you.

 

post #84 of 165

Another problem to report, links take me away from the site instead of opening in a new window or tab.  Its not my settings.

post #85 of 165

Joan, it's not that i don't think of myself as a member of the community.  How about another analogy (no car mods though.)

 

All the street lights are reprogrammed in a community, the yellow lights are removed and a blue light is added in the middle.  A few members of the community are asked in advance, although their objections don't stop the changeover.

 

Chaos follows.   Are the people in that community being treated as members of the community or as customers.  Should they be chided if they don't want to help the Streets Dept. with this by being told that they want to be treated as customers?

 

 


Edited by SkiMangoJazz - Tue, 03 Feb 09 00:18:24 GMT
post #86 of 165

We need to move the hundreds of equipment reviews to the new equipment review section. For example, the Dynastar 8000 has been reviewed here by dozens of bears but only one is now listed. The older reviews need to be added to the current info.

post #87 of 165

 

It occurred to me that with all the REAL & SERIOUSLY BAD STUFF happening around the world, people get more upset about their electronic connections and entertainment than anything, so it seems. Interesting set of priorities we have.


Well let's face it, skiing isn't high up on the solving the world's problems lists.  People do get more upset about other things too, like their shoes, their phones, etc.

 

Btw, could we get a quote button again like we used to have? Oh, right, I'm not supposed to complain...  And really, the smilie situation is ridiculous.  We used to just go over to the side and click, or you could type it.  I used to be able to lay down three smilies very quickly, now you've got to start all over in between each one.

Right, there I am complaining about stupid stuff. 

Should we close Guantanamo Bay?  Should we bail out the auto industry?

 

Remember the guy who invented the wheel? No, I don't think anyone does...except jstraw

 

Do I need any of these things or just think I need them?

Well, we had them, now we have to beg!

post #88 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post

Another problem to report, links take me away from the site instead of opening in a new window or tab.  Its not my settings.

I dont use it often, cause i just right click and do it. but i belive if you hold control while you click on a link it will either open it in a new tab or a new window.

post #89 of 165

Give it some time guys. There are some great possiblities here for everyone.
Yea. its a little difficult, and there should have been a seperate forum test run for us to work out the kinks. I think they wanted to supprise us!

Stick with it and help bring good info, not just a bunch of downers to the guys deving this.

we'll pull it though.
I just hope they change the colors soon. I think i'm getting a tan from my LCD and all the white. haha.

post #90 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveturner View Post

We need to move the hundreds of equipment reviews to the new equipment review section. For example, the Dynastar 8000 has been reviewed here by dozens of bears but only one is now listed. The older reviews need to be added to the current info.

 

Yeah, but the equipment reviews are not real useful right now.  Some of the best reviews from the old site, which I strove to emulate, were well written masterpieces that contained a lot of the author's DNA baked into the review.  They were unique and personal, often including observations about location, snow conditions, technique, ski length, binding position, other skis in the category or model lineup, etc.  I just don't see that level of detail translating over to the new reviews.  They remind me of product ratings you'd find on a seller's website.

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