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Hand Tuning - File Question

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 

I have used for a few years the FK / SKS MultiTool with adjustable angles. It seems to do a fine job for basic recreational edge sharpening. My son is now racing and has been asking for "sharper edges". To this end I purchased from FK some files ( icecut and diamond ) and edge guides.

I believe the file prefers to be pulled towards you from tip to tail. As I did with the multitool.

I am uncertain how to mount the file in the guide; keeping the tails away from you, pulling the file towards you.... which direction does the head of the file point? towards you or away from you? ... and at what angle should the file be placed vs. perpendicular to the ski?

I have watched whatever video's I could find and no one addressed this exactly.

Any comments would be appreciated. All the best....

post #2 of 12

The head of the file will be towards you.

 

Adjust the file in the guide until there is one angle at which it pulls best.  

 

This will be unmistakable, it will feel much smoother and more effective than any other angle

 

For the files I use, the angle is around 50 degrees from vertical.


Edited by comprex - Sat, 31 Jan 09 17:53:35 GMT
post #3 of 12

Comprex, I was  confused by your answer so i am going to try to clarify for OP. Please feel free to correct my description if you feel it necessary

 

To the OP:

 

If you are right handed you should have the skis on your right side. When working on the  edges you should start with the tip to your left if you are facing the table/vices.

 

The base edge guide would be engaged on the far edge of the skis (farthest to your right), facing the tips) at or close to the contact point at the tip. The tang or head of the file should be across the ski pointing to  the left side of the ski but angled towards the tip. You should always pull the file towards you. You will be filing this edge tip to tail.

 

When you have finessed this edge you flip the ski around and now the tail is to your left. You orient everything else exactly as you did the right edge, but you are now filing from tail to tip

 

To do the side edges you mount ski in vice tip again to your left, bases facing away from you so you will be working on the edge at the top. Tang or head of file is again towards the tip but angles away from you. When you are done with this edge flip the ski around, bases still away from you but the tail is no on your left. Everything is is done the same is the first side edge.

 

post #4 of 12
Thread Starter 

Thank you to Comprex and Atomicman. I have filed my first

set of skis and they seem fine. Icecut file, then 3 diamond

stones ( blue, red green ) and I think I can cut paper with them

now. Detune edges and wax.

 

Keep the diamond stones wet - right?  and these stones are

or are not directionally sensitive like the file - right?

 

Cross fingers - they hit the snow tomorrow.

 

Truly - Thank You Both !

 

 

post #5 of 12

Here is a link to diamond stone care and use.

 

Marc

 

PS: Epic Supporters get 10% off at racewax.com 

post #6 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by panelman01 View Post

Detune edges 

No.  Keep the edges sharp all the way to the tips & tails.  Do be sure there is no raised edge that was pushed up by the filing...just use the fine stone or diamond on both side and base edges one last time.  It should run quiet and smooth.

post #7 of 12

I'll second what SSG says--why would you go to all the trouble to hone those edges to perfection, and then "detune" them? Detuning is exactly that--unsharpening them, ruining your fine tune!

 

With that green diamond stone (I assume that means a DMT stone?), your edges should end up polished like a mirror. Running your finger lightly along them (very carefully!), you should feel just smoothness, without burrs. If not, the "perfect" tune will require going back and stoning more, or even filing more, if there is significant edge damage.

 

Of course, the ultimately perfect tune is not always necessary. Since it takes time, and may remove a substantial amount of steel from the edges, you may be satisfied with just a "pretty good" tune that may still leave a little bit of roughness in a spot or two along the edges. But there should be no burrs.

 

But please don't detune!

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #8 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

I'll second what SSG says--why would you go to all the trouble to hone those edges to perfection, and then "detune" them? Detuning is exactly that--unsharpening them, ruining your fine tune!

This is misleading on many levels.  Past, or significantly past (depending on ski) contact points towards the tip and tail, the edges should be shaped aggressively towards round.  At the tip contact point and towards the center of the ski, edges should potentially be detuned slightly, depending on ski, skier, edge settings, and taste.  In small increments, and beginning with a slight softening as opposed to the kind of mill file nonsense some old timers equate to detuning.

 

Outside of the context of this thread, huge numbers of people prefer big mountain skis that have been detuned tip and tail just like people did 20 years ago.  With 40 meter 195cm skis, forgiveness is preferred by some.

 

This of course is a bit of tilting at windmills: the OP needs to learn to comfortably and effectively use a file first.  On that subject, I cannot overstate the importance of cleanliness.  The file should be kept clean, which may mean cleaning it after each stroke.  Less is more...appropriate use of the file will result in a better surface finish, less material removed, and quicker polishing with the stones.

post #9 of 12

OP,

 

I have found, the metal edge dose not care which way you file it.

I pull the file with my right hand from tip to tail on the right edge of my ski. Then flip the ski, left edge up and pull the file from tail to tip.

 

I follow that with the Moonflex diamond stone going in both directions 2 times, left to right, right to left, left to right, right to left. Then wipe the edge with a cotton towel to remove the secret sauce, (50/50 water/ denatured alcohol)

 

Do not de-tune.

 

Make sure the base is flat before you start tuning.

post #10 of 12

Yes, I'll agree that the tip and tail, beyond the contact points, should not be sharp.

 

But I stopped detuning tips and tails (contact point toward center) around 1980, on the advice of a top tuner from Dynastar, and I haven't looked back. Even back then, the solution to "grabby" skis was not to detune (dull), but to bevel, which at that time meant holding the file at the ends and causing it to bow slightly. It was all done by feel, both the amount of bevel, and the length of the beveled section.

 

I maintain that still today, most tuning problems that many people attribute to the skis needing detuning are actually beveling problems (or worse, railing or base-flattening problems). True, you can make a badly tuned ski more skiable by "detuning" it a bit, but that's not a solution to the real problem!

 

Your mileage may vary, as they say.

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #11 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

Yes, I'll agree that the tip and tail, beyond the contact points, should not be sharp.

 

I maintain that still today, most tuning problems that many people attribute to the skis needing detuning are actually beveling problems (or worse, railing or base-flattening problems). True, you can make a badly tuned ski more skiable by "detuning" it a bit, but that's not a solution to the real problem!

 

Your mileage may vary, as they say.

 

Best regards,

Bob

 

What he said.

post #12 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

I maintain that still today, most tuning problems that many people attribute to the skis needing detuning are actually beveling problems (or worse, railing or base-flattening problems). True, you can make a badly tuned ski more skiable by "detuning" it a bit, but that's not a solution to the real problem!

 

Yes, this is true.  This also has nothing to do with the proper use of and rationales for the technique.  Throwing out options because of their frequent misuse is not a rewarding strategy.  If I did that with ski technique, I'd start writing silly books about how pivots are mistakes to be avoided.

 

BTW, I wasn't around in 1980, but in 2009 manufacturer's race room guidance often involves softening on speed skis in the vicinity of 3-10cm from contact, and something between nothing and less than that on tech skis.  All my personal tech skis are kept sharp tip to tail, but I'm not everyone.  Paying attention to what the skier needs is important, and doubly so with children who don't have the experience to know what response they want and how to get it. 

 

If the OP is tuning skis for a kid that is racing, he would be wise not to send the kid out on a tip to tail sharp DH ski just because some ski instructors said that was a good idea.  I'd suggest collecting data from a variety of sources, and keeping the coaches in the loop.

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