|Also, because I am suggesting that the skier let there be some counter at the turn transition, the upper and lower body would create a small amount of torque from the separation, requiring less rotational force from the body's core, to get from the end of one turn to the end of the next. This would also help guide the skis into the next turn. However, you need to be careful. Too much counter will generate enough torque to make the skis want to skid the top of the turn as they go flat in the transition. I certainly do think that there is such a thing as too much counter. And getting too much counter is very easy to do. The amount of counter that I have at transition, when making carved turns, is very small. Especially when compared to something like a skidded short swing turn
From this statement I do think that we are talking apples and oranges. Lets take what you have said here. I will go so far as to say that everything that you have said is valid in high end skiing. The greater the counter into the turn at crossover the shorter the turn and the more skidded it will be. These techinques are all very valid for scarved turns but lets take something else that you said.
"The counter at turn transition is slight and not very great". How is this a big rotational toso movement from being square. You already admit being close. I think that slight and square are pretty close and don't require gross movements.
Everything I am discussing here pertains to crossover turns vs retraction turns where other mechanics can take place.
This is a good discussion right now because I am searching all around neutral for the answers in my own skiing. Countered slightly into the new turn, neutral/square and countered slightly away from the new turn with the legs with the body square. I will say this. If you are countered into the new turn with the anticipatory torque built in there is virtually no way to edge the new inside ski before the new outside ski goes on edge. The result is a slight wedge or a momentary tensioning in the knee joint until the new inside ski goes on edge. David M was the one who really pointed this out to me. Coming up fully square to neutral allows the CM to seek neutral with the skis. This allows the inside foot to invert before the outside ski goes on edge in a narrow stance. A slight rotation of the hips towards the outside of the new turn is needed to invert the new inside ski first in a wide stance. That is invert without rotational force in the knees.
If I am squared up to the skis at neutral I can gain both edges at crossover without rotational forces at work. That gets me an edge at the very start of the turn. My new inside hip is also in a position to immediately move agressively inside with big angulation. We are talking pretty near pure carve turn initiation.
What I am finding is that by using this turn crossover method it is nearly impossible to scarve the top part of the turn. The edge is clean hard and fast and builds rediculous angles fast. If I want to scarve the turn I need a slight counter into the turn as you suggest. That is why I say everything is valid. What I don't know is if I just haven't figured out how to put rotary into my the top part of my near pure carves or not. I am on telemark so I cannot get any forebody pressure on the skis. I must use other methods.
This is all very valid with a number of approaches out there. If you look at Bob Barnes book for dynamic parallel turns you will see he diagrams being square at crossover and more countered at the fall line (page 99). Bob was first to point this out in my skiing two years before it sunk in.
This is also the exact thing coaches are striving for with exercises like the javelin turns. This is also right in line with Harald Harbs work and Al Hobart's work with guerrilla turns. I am starting to put the pieces together in my mind where all these different approaches fit. They are all valid.
Coaches have been trying to get racers more square at crossover for a long time by advocating things like drive the outside hand towards the gate. This has the effect of progressively reducing counter in the second half of the turn and follow through with the CM.