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Those turns...illustrated - Page 5

post #121 of 141
This has been a very interesting thread - I finally had time to go through it. My comments:

The Diagrams - they all work for me, but I like version 3 best.

The Wedge - In my beginner classes, when the people are making their first straight run down a slight incline, there is not usually a counter slope available which will stop them. I have them stop by doing a stepping turn across the hill (right tip right to go right). Invariably, some of the people in the class will make a wedge turn instead of stepping. They simply steer the skis to turn at very low speed and wind up in a wedge. At this point we have not even talked about turns so unless they have had some prior exposure to it (sometimes, but not usually the case), the wedge is spontaneous.

Direct Parallel - People often come to first timer lessons with skis that are too long for this to be effective. Also alignment in rental boots is an issue. Teaching terrain needs to be very gentle. You need a fair amount of space which is not always available on busy days. It doesn't work well for some people who have a high fear factor. The wedge provides them with higher level of comfort. Nothing wrong with that if its a GLIDING not braking wedge.

What the people in the lesson already know or think they know about sking - I have yet to meet a true beginner who has any preconceived ideas about ski technique. They have all been a clean slate as long as they were not corrupted by a previous lesson or skiing with friends/family. They usually don't have any idea what Stein or the Herminator look like on skis, so skiing like one of them is not on their mind.

Cheers
post #122 of 141
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
And WTFH--YES! Thanks for the offer. As the rewrite progresses, I'll get in touch with you. Do you think you could edit in a bit of a brogue? Ski instructors with foreign accents do so much better here in the US....



Best regards,
Bob Barnes
Would you like an Italian accent?
I can provide mine

Bob, just one thought:
I agree with the idea that the progressions drawn botton to top of the page make it easier for the reader to imagine him/her/it-self into the action.
But I've found the pictures of the skiers put beside the diagram confusing.
See, the diagrams go bottom to top, the skiers, well being real pictures, go in their natural direction Top to Bottom...
But then, this is just me.
post #123 of 141
I thought the same - but wouldn't it be harder to get good footage from the rear?? & to see what you can see in the photos as they are?
post #124 of 141
Thread Starter 
I'm working on it guys--thanks for the thoughts. As you can see, the Wedge Christie diagram has a photo sequence from behind, as well as a couple from the front. I put that one together in response to some of the earlier comments on this thread, and I agree that it is a a good idea. Unfortunately, finding just the right footage to produce a good photo-montage from is not always easy, and shooting more footage in July is a little difficult in this hemisphere. But I'm working on it!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #125 of 141
Since the current thread, http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=18910, is talking all around this subject I thought it would be a good idea to compare the posts
post #126 of 141
Great stuff, Bob. A question? You state that the skier steers the INSIDE ski tip INTO the turn, throughout the turn. I`m confused. In parallel turns, I have been coached to think of initiating by moving my outside (downhill) knee/ankle down the hill, with the other leg following naturally. Of course, that outside leg becomes the inside one, so perhaps that is what you mean, but I`m not sure. Or are you simply making the point that the steering effort should include the inside ski at all times? Hope you have the time to straighten this out for me.

P.S. Looking forward to the book.
post #127 of 141
Help with the visualization is in this thread...
post #128 of 141
I'm having trouble with a couple of my beginner (6 year olds) students catching the big toe side of the turn side ski when they turn the corner. I'm a newer insructor. Any tips on how to get them to fix this?

Thanks,
post #129 of 141
Thread Starter 
Hi a4runner87--

I'm not sure this is the best thread for this discussion, but it's a good question and, hey, why not?

First, some clarification--when you say the "turn side ski," I assume that you mean the inside ski of the turn, ie. the right ski in a right turn?

If so, it's a very common mistake, generally caused by trying to turn by twisting and/or tipping the upper body (shoulders, usually) into the turn. That causes the hips to move toward the outside of the turn, flattening the outside ski, and increasing the big-toe-side edge engagement of the inside ski. It's typically the inside tail that gets "hooked up," hindering the turn, and it usually gets worse the harder the skier tries to force the skis to come around with the upper body.

It happens to all sorts of skiers, but men are notorious (trying to muscle everything with their upper bodies), and small children often lack the dexterity and refined foot and leg movements needed to guide their skis without their upper bodies. 6 year-olds, though, should be able to overcome the problem with some good coaching and practice.

As with anything, the first step is to identify the root cause of the problem. Very often, gross upper body twisting movements result from defensiveness--the attempt to "not go" the direction the skis are pointing, to try to avoid letting the skis run downhill, and to try to force the skis across the direction of travel for braking. If that's the case, the first thing you must do is eliminate the defensive intent. Lower terrain angles, lower speed, skiing across the hill rather than down, and even visualizing going UPhill rather than braking downhill can all help here. "Follow me" on a very slow, easy line can create the offensive intent to "go" where your tracks lead, rather than trying to "stop going" the way they were going.

Technically (once the intent thing is worked out), anything you can do to help develop the ability to tip and steer the skis with the legs, rather than twisting them and leaning with the upper body, will help. Sidestepping (often difficult for 6-year-olds) can help them learn to tip both skis toward their uphill edges--generating the right sensations and movements for tipping both skis with their legs in turns. They'll probably try to lean uphill with their upper bodies when sidestepping at first, so you'll need to give good coaching and feedback to help them learn the correct tipping movements.

Beware, though, of being too technical. Probably the biggest thing you can do for these kids is to keep them offensive, keep them playing, get them to love gliding, to want to go faster, not slower, all the time. Games, chasing around on the flats, skating and pushing with poles, gliding down one hill and up another--these are the types of activities that lead to the offensive intent of expert skiers.

Again, keep a sharp eye out for any "don't go" body language that indicates that you've gotten them defensive again. Great turns, as discussed in this thread, are purely offensive, made to "go that way," rather than to "stop going this way." And intent dictates technique. You simply can't succeed at teaching the offensive movements of great turns to defensive skiers--at any age!

Best regards,
Bob
post #130 of 141
Thread Starter 
PS--sorry that the images in this thread no longer work. My old image-hosting service (CompuServe) no longer maintains the images site. I'll try to work with our administrators here to update the illustrations.

Best regards,
Bob
post #131 of 141
Thread Starter 
For starters, here are newer versions of the original Basic Turn illustrations that started this thread:









Let the discussions resume!

Best regards,
Bob
post #132 of 141
Great illustrations!
post #133 of 141
This latest posts got me interested in the book that these cool illustrations where originally intended for. I found one copy of the 3rd edition on-line for "only" $384! I am holding out for the 4th edition. Any chance of that happening Bob?
post #134 of 141
You can get a CD/ROM with a PDF of the 3rd Edition here for $10 plus shipping: I don't think the shipping will be much over $374

http://www.psia-rm.org/products.php?sorttype=alpine

When I got the CD/ROM I printed it out, put the pages into page protectors, and bound it in a 3 ring binder. Great Book.
post #135 of 141
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the plug, TT! And thanks for replacing the images in the early posts of this thread. Everyone should be aware that the images there are the new, current illustrations, not the original ones. Some of the discussion that ensued may not be entirely relevant. (Would it be possible to insert a note to that effect, TT?)

Happy New Year, everyone!

Best regards,
Bob
post #136 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSA View Post
Barnes, you're trying to drink an ugly girl pretty.
classic!

carryon!
post #137 of 141
Bob,

humerous SCSA-isms aside, I thought these were great illustrations 6 years ago! Now I like them even better!

thanks to whomever brought this thread back to life
post #138 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSA View Post
Barnes I'll show up tomorrow and make you a perfect parallel turn. Heck, I'll make you 50 of 'em. And, I'll do it on 190's.

You're making your assumptions based on one day, in November, when I was stoned to the bejezus.

One thing I'll admit, is that Barnes's criticism (he was right) really got me going. From that day forward, I was never more conscious of what parallel really is.

I'll see you again in November. I'll make those perfect turns you ask for - bring your camera.

Cheers,
I'm sorry......I just couldn't resist. SCSA, photograph compliments of Don Denver on 12/25/08

post #139 of 141
Thread Starter 
That wouldn't be a touch of "inside leg steering" going on in that 2nd frame, would it? (Is that a wedge in the first frame?) I think our boy's getting it!

Happy New Year, Greg. I hope all is well in the hot southern climes.

Best regards,
Bob
post #140 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
Thanks for the plug, TT! And thanks for replacing the images in the early posts of this thread. Everyone should be aware that the images there are the new, current illustrations, not the original ones. Some of the discussion that ensued may not be entirely relevant. (Would it be possible to insert a note to that effect, TT?)

Happy New Year, everyone!

Best regards,
Bob
No problem, done.
post #141 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post
Bob,

humerous SCSA-isms aside, I thought these were great illustrations 6 years ago! Now I like them even better!

thanks to whomever brought this thread back to life
It was brought back to life by someone browsing through the Classic Threads.

[Shameless Plug Mode On] The Classic Threads are available to all EpicSki Supporters. [/Shameless Plug Mode Off]
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