EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Anyone know where the Tyrolia dealers in NE went?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Anyone know where the Tyrolia dealers in NE went?

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Can anyone here recommend a store in the eastern Mass/southern or central NH area that handles Tyrolia/Head bindings? Believe it or not, I cannot locate ANYONE who actually seems capable of even mounting a RF2 14 or Mojo 15 to a ski, let alone selling them. I've tried from border with Rhode Island all the way to Lincoln, NH. Conversations with the VERY few stores that advertised Tyrolia/Head bindings went like this:

Me: "Hi, I would like to buy or order a Railflex 14 binding. Do you have these and a jig to mount to a 88 mm ski? Or if not, what about a Mojo?

Store 1: "Oh yeah, well we used to carry the Railflexes but I loaned my jig to our other store and they lost it. We don't carry Mojos. I can do a Freeflex for you if you have a plate."

Store 2: "The Railflex? Do they still make that one? We actually don't carry the higher end Tyrolia bindings, just the simple stuff. No, we don't have the jig. But I'm sure we can handle it. Haven't heard of the Mojo. Is that made by Tyrolia?"

Store 3: "Oh the website's wrong. We don't sell Tyrolia or Head anymore."

Store 4 (voicemail after three calls to store during open hours yielded same message saying to leave message): "Hi, this is XXXX. Please call us back and we'll be happy to go through our products with you."

So you get the idea. Either Tyrolia/Head have decided to boycott the area, or dealers have decided to dump Tyrolia/Head. Every place I look seems to carry Look and Marker, period. A few handle Sollies.

Now ironically, I decided to buy at a brick and mortar store in the first place so they could make some $ and have some motivation to do a good mounting job. But if I can't even get my own bindings mounted without traveling to northern Vermont, I'm going to have to waste two days of travel and more gas than the binding is worth. Ideas?
post #2 of 29
If they sell any model tyrolia, they can order any of them. Railflex is such a simple mount, wouldn't worry about them havinga jig.
post #3 of 29
I've mounted plenty of railflex plates myself. Just send me your skis.... j/k

Seriously--you can mount the railflex plate yourself if you want.
post #4 of 29
Try Ken Jones in Manchester NH or Proctor Jones in Nashua or Bucchica's (sp?) in Salem NH... or come ski Stowe for a day or two.
post #5 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrzinwin View Post
I've mounted plenty of railflex plates myself. Just send me your skis.... j/k

Seriously--you can mount the railflex plate yourself if you want.
This is true.... just remember to leave 5mm between the front and back plates - stick something between them while laying them out. If the plates are new then the sliding tabs will still be attached to the plates, telling you exactly where to drill. Once that done just apply a bit of pressure so the tabs snap off and they'll slide nicely in their slots. Last time I got a shop to do mine they freehanded them and left no gap between the plates. Sheesh! What's a guy to do - these people are supposed to be experts.
post #6 of 29
I've got a PDF template with all the holes PLUS the 5mm gap if interested...
post #7 of 29

Tyrolia bindings

Stan and Dan Sports in North Conway, NH.

They sell Head skis and Tyrolia bindings. No problem.
post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Try Ken Jones in Manchester NH or Proctor Jones in Nashua or Bucchica's (sp?) in Salem NH... or come ski Stowe for a day or two.
If you're interested in option#1 here, be sure to check what they're going to charge for the mounting...it might not be bad if you're buying the binding from them, but they quoted me what I thought was a very high price just to slide RF2 bindings on skis that already had railings, because I hadn't purchased the stuff there. Fair enough, but then the kid at the desk was really snotty when I said, "No, thanks"..."What, are you going to do it YOURSELF?!?!?!" Well, yes, punk, I did do it myself, and it was EASY. They wanted to charge me 2X what it cost me to get bindings drilled and mounted on flat skis last spring at Ski Fanatics in Campton, NH, and I'm sure they would have spent 2 minutes sliding those bindings on.

The place in Salem is Buchika's...bought my Bianchi road bike there, but have never gone there for skiing stuff. We usually call them "ButtCheekA's", but we're immature.
post #9 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Can anyone here recommend a store in the eastern Mass/southern or central NH area that handles Tyrolia/Head bindings? Believe it or not, I cannot locate ANYONE who actually seems capable of even mounting a RF2 14 or Mojo 15 to a ski, let alone selling them. I've tried from border with Rhode Island all the way to Lincoln, NH. Conversations with the VERY few stores that advertised Tyrolia/Head bindings went like this:

Me: "Hi, I would like to buy or order a Railflex 14 binding. Do you have these and a jig to mount to a 88 mm ski? Or if not, what about a Mojo?

Store 1: "Oh yeah, well we used to carry the Railflexes but I loaned my jig to our other store and they lost it. We don't carry Mojos. I can do a Freeflex for you if you have a plate."

Store 2: "The Railflex? Do they still make that one? We actually don't carry the higher end Tyrolia bindings, just the simple stuff. No, we don't have the jig. But I'm sure we can handle it. Haven't heard of the Mojo. Is that made by Tyrolia?"

Store 3: "Oh the website's wrong. We don't sell Tyrolia or Head anymore."

Store 4 (voicemail after three calls to store during open hours yielded same message saying to leave message): "Hi, this is XXXX. Please call us back and we'll be happy to go through our products with you."

So you get the idea. Either Tyrolia/Head have decided to boycott the area, or dealers have decided to dump Tyrolia/Head. Every place I look seems to carry Look and Marker, period. A few handle Sollies.

Now ironically, I decided to buy at a brick and mortar store in the first place so they could make some $ and have some motivation to do a good mounting job. But if I can't even get my own bindings mounted without traveling to northern Vermont, I'm going to have to waste two days of travel and more gas than the binding is worth. Ideas?
Give HEAD a call they might be able to recommend a store.
post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Try Ken Jones in Manchester NH or Proctor Jones in Nashua or Bucchica's (sp?) in Salem NH... or come ski Stowe for a day or two.

Ken Jones in Manchester has the Railflex jig.
Proctor Jones in Nashua does not have the Railflex jig.
post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
Well so far, everyone's struck out:

1) RR, neither Head nor Tyrolia respond to messages or emails about their dealers. Think it's a state secret.

2) Whiteroom, Proctor Jones does not handle Tyrolia bindings.

3) Quickk9, Ken Jones only handles a Tyrolia race binding and a low end non-plate Fischer. When I asked if they carried or could mount a Railflex, the guy I talked to said, "They (RF's) come premounted on the ski." "Yes, I explained, but you can also get them to mount on a flat ski." "Oh," he said. "What ski?" "Kastle," I replied. "Kastle? Are those being made?" "Well," he added (very dubious tone), "We don't generally do orders on bindings we don't carry, and we don't have the jig." Couldn't reach the other place in Salem. Which is a schlep from where I live anyway.

4) Karpiel, most places I've checked do not want to order anything (see above as example), perhaps because it doesn't cycle their own inventory, and those who will do not have the jig, so therefore the mounting becomes sketchy.

5) mrzwimin, as for mounting my own, or not needing a jig, I had a stretch in my life where (believe it or not), I used an industrial shop on a regular basis, including both metal, plastic, and wood working equipment. Got decent at it. And I would never eyeball holes into an unusually expensive set of skis with a tape and hand drill. Those of you who do will be off on both the horizontal and the vertical by a couple of mm at best, probably more, and unlikely error on one ski will match error on the other. If that's OK with you, all good. Nice discussion of this on TGR, incidentally.

Not to mention the sloppier store rush jobs reported regularly here and over at TGR where the horizontal mistakes are in the cm's. In fact, I've had two pairs of new skis so messed up by the initial mounts the stores either had to remount and give me a discount on the holey skis, or toss the skis and get me another pair in stock. Unlikely if we're talking about Kastle's.

So Whiteroom, looks like I may be sandwiching a day trip to Stowe around child care. I'll PM you.
post #12 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

5) mrzwimin, as for mounting my own, or not needing a jig, I had a stretch in my life where (believe it or not), I used an industrial shop on a regular basis, including both metal, plastic, and wood working equipment. Got decent at it. And I would never eyeball holes into an unusually expensive set of skis with a tape and hand drill. Those of you who do will be off on both the horizontal and the vertical by a couple of mm at best, probably more, and unlikely error on one ski will match error on the other. If that's OK with you, all good. Nice discussion of this on TGR, incidentally.

Not to mention the sloppier store rush jobs reported regularly here and over at TGR where the horizontal mistakes are in the cm's. In fact, I've had two pairs of new skis so messed up by the initial mounts the stores either had to remount and give me a discount on the holey skis, or toss the skis and get me another pair in stock. Unlikely if we're talking about Kastle's.

:cough:

Calipers....

Quote:
Originally Posted by krp8128 View Post
I've got a PDF template with all the holes PLUS the 5mm gap if interested...
post #13 of 29
If you are up by Okemo/Stratton, the Startingate is a big HEAD dealer.

HEAD customer service: 203-855-8666
post #14 of 29
I can provide Tyrolia/Head paper templates for their flat bindings if needed.
post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
If you are up by Okemo/Stratton, the Startingate is a big HEAD dealer.

HEAD customer service: 203-855-8666
Plus Startingate does mail order (startingate.net). They are good folks.
post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
...
3) Quickk9, Ken Jones only handles a Tyrolia race binding and a low end non-plate Fischer. When I asked if they carried or could mount a Railflex, the guy I talked to said, "They (RF's) come premounted on the ski." "Yes, I explained, but you can also get them to mount on a flat ski." "Oh," he said. "What ski?" "Kastle," I replied. "Kastle? Are those being made?" "Well," he added (very dubious tone), "We don't generally do orders on bindings we don't carry, and we don't have the jig." Couldn't reach the other place in Salem. Which is a schlep from where I live anyway.
...
Sounds like the place I know and love.

I'm still mad that I paid good money there for a ski jacket for my daughter in November. I will say that the saleslady for the clothing was very nice and helpful, and my little girl loves her jacket. But, I still wish that I had taken my business elsewhere.
post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krp8128 View Post
:cough:
Calipers....
Thanks for all the advice. Have decided to go up to Stowe, since I bought these from Whiteroom.

krp and 219, here's the deal (cough): In my experience, all the calipers and paper templates in the world do not compensate for the basic problem of guiding a drill by hand in three dimensions. That's why industrial presses and metal jigs were invented. I do not even have access to a decent press. If you think I'm a doofus with tools, and you can beat human neurobiology, fine with me. But for your own edification, go read at TGR before you assume you're all that with your mounts.
post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
If you think I'm a doofus with tools, and you can beat human neurobiology, fine with me. But for your own edification, go read at TGR before you assume you're all that with your mounts.
And a jig has never caused a bad mount, especially over at TGR. If you're going to mess up a mount it is going to happen regardless of the method that you choose. The opposite holds true for a mount that is performed accurately and professionally.

Whiteroom will set you up just fine

(I bet he triple checks the jig after this thread...)
post #19 of 29
beyond thinks your average jig is better than a careful guy? I guess we all have different experiences. My fave was the customer that told me it was no biggie, he'd go home and do the layout and drill 'em on his mill. My preferred technique is to measure thrice, mark, measure again, centerpunch/slightly pilot, and then clamp on an old drill bushing. It is, btw, totally possible to start holes crooked with a typical jig and drill bushing.

The biggest question this thread raises...why are you putting Tyrolia bindings on something that doesn't have a hostage plate requiring you put on Tyrolia bindings? I'm 99% sure some of the attitude you are getting is from shops thinking exactly that. Whatever floats your boat.
post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
....as for mounting my own, or not needing a jig, I had a stretch in my life where (believe it or not), I used an industrial shop on a regular basis, including both metal, plastic, and wood working equipment. Got decent at it. And I would never eyeball holes into an unusually expensive set of skis with a tape and hand drill. Those of you who do will be off on both the horizontal and the vertical by a couple of mm at best, probably more, and unlikely error on one ski will match error on the other. If that's OK with you, all good. Nice discussion of this on TGR, incidentally.

Not to mention the sloppier store rush jobs reported regularly here and over at TGR where the horizontal mistakes are in the cm's. In fact, I've had two pairs of new skis so messed up by the initial mounts the stores either had to remount and give me a discount on the holey skis, or toss the skis and get me another pair in stock. Unlikely if we're talking about Kastle's.
Well, obviously you can't measure and don't have the technique down. A careful hand mount is usually more accurate than a normal jig mount, but 10x more time consuming.

As for jigs....they can be way off.
post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
I guess we all have different experiences.
Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
It is, btw, totally possible to start holes crooked with a typical jig and drill bushing.
Yep. Never said otherwise. In fact ANY way to make holes in flat surface, from a $29.95 hand drill to robotic industrial setups, has an error term attached. Not the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
The biggest question this thread raises...why are you putting Tyrolia bindings on something that doesn't have a hostage plate requiring you put on Tyrolia bindings?
Well, this is deep, but if we all concentrate hard: I prefer Tyrolia bindings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
I'm 99% sure some of the attitude you are getting is from shops thinking exactly that. Whatever floats your boat.
OK, let me get this straight: Your 99% certainty comes from these guys who aren't sure about the lines they advertise, or that Kastle is making skis, nonetheless hold in contempt a potential customer who wants to buy their products because they're so sophisticated about bindings? Uh, yeah. Makes perfect sense.

H.S.: Your 225 cm Stockli fantasies are safer terrain. You wouldn't know an ISO rating from a PG rating, let alone measurement theory.
post #22 of 29

Head / tyrolia

Besides Stan and Dan in North Conway, NH, Mountain Dogs Alpine Outfitters in Plaistow, NH sells and mounts both Heads skis and Tyrolia Bindings.

Mountain Dogs Alpine Outfitters
5 Plaistow Rd
Plaistow, NH 03865
(603) 382-3647

Mike or Corey can take care of your mount and whatever.

It's less than 2 miles off RT 495 and the Haverhill, Massachusetts border.

Also Ski Haus in Salem, NH is a Heaad/ Tyrolia dealer.
post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Uh, yeah. Makes perfect sense.
Yes. They've never heard anyone ask for what you want before. Because what you want is weird and highly unusual. And maybe, just maybe, you have the same dick attitude on the phone you have here.

Ski binding jigs are assembled from stamped steel and rubber parts that are neither stiff nor free from lash when installed, and HS is completely correct.
post #24 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Because what you want is weird and highly unusual.
You're right. Expecting that a place that advertises a line will actually carry it, know about it, and have the assorted mounting gear is highly weird and unusual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
And maybe, just maybe, you have the same dick attitude on the phone you have here.
Unlikely many on this forum - including you - interact like this in the real world because we wouldn't get very far, would we? Oh, sorry, you have a very sunny, neutral attitude. Forgot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Ski binding jigs are assembled from stamped steel and rubber parts that are neither stiff nor free from lash when installed, and HS is completely correct.
As usual, when you can't find a hole in my argument, you mischaracterize it and then attack the straw man. Never said that jigs are free from error, did I? In fact, stated that " ANY way to make holes in flat surface, from a $29.95 hand drill to robotic industrial setups, has an error term attached. Not the point." So wow, you and HS are dead on. Jigs can create errors too. Stop the presses!

Look, I'll give you a the short lesson. Usually get $400-600 an hour for consulting or expert testimony, but hey, you're worth it.

1) All measurements, and then all actions based on those measurements, include error. This error can be broken down into an instrumental component (innate to the design and function of the instrument or tool), and a human component (innate to the design and function of the person using the instrument or tool.) OK so far?

2) Each of these components can have their reliability measured. That includes their accuracy (ability to approach some gold standard that is taken to be the best possible measurement of some real referent, say a perfect hole) and their reproducibility (ability of the machine or instrument or person to make the same hole, time after time.) If you have more than one caliper or one person making the holes, you get into inter-observer/instrument error, but let's postulate just one of everything.

3) All types of error can also be thought of as being made of systematic bias (a caliper that reads high, a shop guy who tends to always be a few degrees north of vertical when he drills), and random deviation (a drill bit that wobbles eccentrically, a shop guy who is new and tends to be a little wide this time, a touch narrow the next.)

4) The reliability difference between machines and people becomes one of tolerance and learning curves. A machine can only approach its design parameters. However, these usually surpass what a human arm and hand and eye and brain can do unaided. A cheap ruler maybe not, a caliper definitely.

Over time a machine/tool/instrument will seat in and may actually improve its error, and then gradually wear and increase its various kinds of error. People, by contrast, will learn and get better, to a point. In certain measurements of living systems, for instance, it may take 1,000 trys to reduce your error to acceptable limits. Practice doesn't make perfect, but it helps your aim.

5) For all that, humans cannot achieve the same reliability as machines; it's a fact of our neurobiology. As a result, ON AVERAGE a system of machine/tool plus human will be more reliable than just a human, and a fully robotic system will, in theory, be more reliable still. We began to rely on tools maybe 6 million years ago, and the trend hasn't stopped.

This is why, for instance, using jigs and templates allowed mass production of revolvers that previousy had to be individually fitted together. Parts become interchangable when you can reduce error sufficiently through the introduction of guides to meet necessary tolerances. It's also why cars built in 1940 needed rebuilds every 6-10,000 miles. Nowadays a well cared for engine without weak spots like a timing belt can go 150,000 to 200,000 without being taken apart. Better templates with closer tolerances, more robots, more computers guiding the drills and presses. Yes, they allow faster production, save the costs of using people. Which has other costs. But they also can produce lower error, if that's what the designers want. (I'll return to this issue)

5) As a result, an experienced shop tech who is careful (certainly this would include you and HS) may well outperform an inexperienced tech who's using a jig in a hurry. Let alone a cheap jig. But you know as well as I do that an experienced tech WITH a good jig will produce a more accurate hole than the same tech WITHOUT a jig. Without a jig, your standard deviation of error will run about 1 mm each way horizontally, 2 mm over all, even if you're an ace and have a really good drill. More typically 3 mm overall. A jig can help there, although it may or may not help with deviations off vertical; depends on the jig depth and design.

6) Machines and tools and instruments are only as reliable as their manufacturers find economical. Pay less, get less. Obviously a cheap stamped sheet metal jig will include some measurement error. Obviously the factory mounting systems that Head uses have less. But does that cheap jig have as much error as your hand trying to guide in a spinning drill bit to a pinpoint that (may) represent true center? Hmmm.

7) This idea that we can't outperform machines/tools seems to bother the hell out of people who feel they are are competing with same. Some of you here sound a lot like 21t century John Henry's, who still want to fight the pile driver. Ah, where is that "old world" craftsmanship? I know, let's use hand crank drills. Think of the electricity we'd save. And screw those calipers or templates, let's just use the old eyeballs. Rub our hands lovingly over the grin of the topsheet and intuit where the holes should go. Bet I can beat some damn ruler.

Now notice that I never questioned your skill or HS's You're both worlds better than I am at any of this, I'm sure. And if I weren't, HS set me straight. So this was never about whether or not I could mount a ski effectively. (Given my limited equipment, sloth, and wet basement, no.)

But what we ARE talking about is that it's not unreasonable to ask unknown stores who appear uninformed about jigs, since all things considered, they'll help reliability, especially of less experienced mounters. If I find their responses funny or frustrating, not sure that automatically means I'm being a dick. Little touchy, are we?

The funny thing here is that my whole argument has a big hole in it that you never caught cuz you were too busy huffing and puffing about how good, ah, hand jobs were and how weird my questions were: What functional differences result from the error in using a caliper and hand drill versus a jig and same?

Skier 219 showed a while back that the advantage of a sliding plate to actual ski flex was nearly trivial. It's possible the same applies to a few mm of error in where the mount ends up. But you never addressed that cuz you can't own up to that few mm. Oh well...
post #25 of 29
Funny!

I have had Railflex and Mojos. There's only 1 shop in all of the SF Bay Area that has a Tyrolia jig (California Ski Company in Berkeley). And there was only 1 shop in all of Tahoe (both North and South shore): Head North in Truckee.

I bought the Railflex from Cali Ski. They mounted. Bought the Mojos online and ended up at Head North.

What's funny is that last season I had the Railflex taken off a pair of skis by a trusted tech buddy in Colo. He boxed 'em up for me. I then sold them to a co-worker. Co-worker finally took the skis in to get mounted and the shop here by our work told him "No problem! We can totally mount these." A week went by and they called him and said "Um, these bindings are broken. They're missing all kinds of washers and screws, so we can't mount 'em." Friend comes back to me inferring that I perhaps lost some of the parts in transit from Colo to him. I assure him that my buddy in Colo put all the parts in the box and more'n likely the shop didn't have the jig and just didn't want to fess up for some reason. To keep my friend happy, I got the skis from him and took them over to Cali Ski. They mounted 'em with no problem and agreed that the other shop probably didn't have the jig and for whatever reason chose to say that the bindings were broken/missing parts rather than just say "We can't handle that kind of mount."

Anyway, picked the skis up for my buddy over the weekend. Cali Ski didn't mention any missing parts or anything. Knocked the mount out in less than a week, too.

So, the purpose of my story and ramble is that Tyrolia's are hard to come by out here in the West, as well.
post #26 of 29
I had tyrolia railflex, LD 12s I think, mounted in Concord, NH at S&W Sports. It's a nice ski and bike shop. They had no problem doing it. They even had the right jig,
post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
You're right. Expecting that a place that advertises a line will actually carry it, know about it, and have the assorted mounting gear is highly weird and unusual.
Yes, it is extremely unusual for a retail vendor of any line to be familiar with every combination of item and service that line offers. I understand it can be frustrating, but I didn't make the world this way. This sometimes happens even when that line is the only thing the vendor sells. Think of car dealers, for instance. I watched one pop the hood and look for the battery in a Miata the other day.
Quote:
Never said that jigs are free from error, did I? In fact, stated that " ANY way to make holes in flat surface, from a $29.95 hand drill to robotic industrial setups, has an error term attached. Not the point." So wow, you and HS are dead on. Jigs can create errors too. Stop the presses!
You said that they were better in your experience than mounts done by hand. My experience suggests no such clear distinction, with the only edge belonging to the exceptionally careful and time consuming setup of either method. I've seen far, far too many jig mounts gone wrong. The list of reasons is long.
Quote:
Look, I'll give you a the short lesson. Usually get $400-600 an hour for consulting or expert testimony, but hey, you're worth it.
You take yourself pretty seriously, and it always makes me chuckle a little. Thanks...I'm sick as heck and I needed that.
Quote:
It's also why cars built in 1940 needed rebuilds every 6-10,000 miles. Nowadays a well cared for engine without weak spots like a timing belt can go 150,000 to 200,000 without being taken apart.
The long life of the engines you are referring to is a complex interplay between better oils, better coolants, better alloys, better coatings, better fuels, and 70 years more experience with the design, analysis, and production. To imply this dramatic extension in durability is owed to robotic manufacturing is not testimony worth your hourly fee. After all, modern motors assembled in even the worst conditions (single unit, low volume parts finished by hand, home assembly by unskilled labor) last vastly longer than your 1940 figure. You'd do much better speaking of the now much less common low cycle failures brought on by improper assembly and machining...
Quote:
But you know as well as I do that an experienced tech WITH a good jig will produce a more accurate hole than the same tech WITHOUT a jig.
What good jig? I'm familiar with the jigs from all major brands. While some are more user friendly than others and some are certainly better designed and constructed than others, they almost all consist of inexpensive stamped steel parts riveted together and mounted to a ski via molded rubber. The key advantage of the binding jig is time. Accuracy and repeatability were both traded for low cost...a reasonable trade considering how unimportant those two criteria are to the vast majority of the skiing public.
Quote:
A jig can help there, although it may or may not help with deviations off vertical; depends on the jig depth and design.
You really think a typical jig mounted binding shows individual hole position errors less than 1mm? That is, in my experience, a bit optimistic. There are a lot of skis out there with that much shift in the datum due to production variation.
Quote:
But does that cheap jig have as much error as your hand trying to guide in a spinning drill bit to a pinpoint that (may) represent true center? Hmmm.
Reread my first post. You can't expect a 3.6/4.1 drill to start where and how you want it to freehand. So you don't. You mark, then punch or pilot, then clamp on a bushing concentric and normal to the point...I use machined tools to complete each of these steps.

For a ski I'm perfectly happy with 1mm max position error, but perhaps some aren't. Fine. It is certainly possible to do better, just pay me enough money to have a skilled machinist do the work...I'm just a guy that has developed his own method of doing it well enough for most.
Quote:
7) This idea that we can't outperform machines/tools seems to bother the hell out of people who feel they are are competing with same.
You have an amazingly fertile imagination for an old guy. I perform mounts without jigs.....when I don't have a jig handy. Otherwise, why waste my time achieving results that ski the same? And no, I'm no John Henry type. Shop work is not my favorite work except for when something unique is going on...I like challenges and problems to solve.

One of my hobbies is building machines, including those controlled by software and electronics. I darken the door of machine shops now and again as a result, and I'm more than happy to pay someone to provide me with accuracy I can't achieve easily at home. I don't actually care if they decide to set it up by hand or with G-code...why would I care if they achieve what the drawing asked for?
Quote:
What functional differences result from the error in using a caliper and hand drill versus a jig and same?
Not likely much, but from my perspective it is moot. The error needs to be small enough not to be questioned no matter how the work is completed. I don't know about you, but I don't like completing questionable work.

I badly fumbled my last cross country tool swap (I now have a three ton floor jack and no automobile. A wide range of sockets, no ratchets.) but when I find my measurement tools I'd love to compare my "freehand" mount to my latest jig mount. Got a pair of each sitting right here without binders and now you've made me curious. Maybe I should bring them to a metrology lab tomorrow.
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnydog View Post
I had tyrolia railflex, LD 12s I think, mounted in Concord, NH at S&W Sports. It's a nice ski and bike shop. They had no problem doing it. They even had the right jig,
A quick read of the Head/Tyrolia manual will reveal that the jig for LDs, Mojos, Peaks, FreeFlexes and whatever else you can mount flat (including Fischer's race bindings that plenty of places do have a jig for) ain't the same as the jig for Railflex and Railflex-lite. Loads of places probably have the first jig - hardly any have the other as its specific to these two kinds of rail that hardly anyone mounts on a flat ski.

Understandable, but frustrating. But as the Railflex plates are "self templating" they're a doddle to freehand (unless you don't want to risk your very expensive Kästles of course.) Buying the proper collared drill bits and a 12AB tap are highly recommended.
post #29 of 29
Thread Starter 
OK this (as usual when we're going at it) is getting way too long. Last response on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
You take yourself pretty seriously, and it always makes me chuckle a little. Thanks...I'm sick as heck and I needed that.
Yeah sometimes I get seriously pompous. But then sometimes you can be insulting and careless with "quotes" just for the fun of it. Go pick. Sucks to be sick when there's snow around. Skied with pneumonia once at JH rather than miss some pow. Bad idea in hindsight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
The long life of the engines you are referring to is a complex interplay between better oils, better coolants, better alloys, better coatings, better fuels, and 70 years more experience with the design, analysis, and production. To imply this dramatic extension in durability is owed to robotic manufacturing is not testimony worth your hourly fee...
Your argument style here is to seize a casual example and make it the deal maker or breaker. No, I don't get my hourly fee for advising auto makers. Obviously, like everything else in the world, it's complex. OTOH, folks I know who do specialize in such things in fact locate the majority of improvement in the tools and tolerances used to make the engines, and the planning of how things are assembled. Oh yeah, and a willingness to toss more stuff at the edge of the curve that would have been defined as within tolerance in 1940. Maybe they're full of it, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
What good jig? I'm familiar with the jigs from all major brands. While some are more user friendly than others and some are certainly better designed and constructed than others, they almost all consist of inexpensive stamped steel parts riveted together and mounted to a ski via molded rubber.
We may have experience with different kinds of jigs. I have used several kinds involved with machining metals chiefly. They were not as you describe. Perhaps ski mount jigs are uniquely crappy. It's not like skis techs are getting paid wheel barrels of money and given access to state of the art tools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
The key advantage of the binding jig is time.
Agree and said this when I talked about a rushed tech. Customers always seem to need their skis done RIGHT AWAY, and managers always seem to smile and nod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Accuracy and repeatability were both traded for low cost
Obviously there are tradeoffs, but you're trying to insert an unstated premise, that these tradeoffs with jigs make them inferior to jobs done by hand. I won't buy that. Need data here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
...a reasonable trade considering how unimportant those two criteria are to the vast majority of the skiing public.
Agree if you mean that most won't notice the diff between a good jig or a bad one, or a jig and a hand mount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
You really think a typical jig mounted binding shows individual hole position errors less than 1mm? That is, in my experience, a bit optimistic.
Perhaps. I don't have the data on jigs. Not my point, again. Point is that a jig is better than a hand, unless that hand is very experienced and careful and the jig is cheap. But suggest this: Go over to TGR. Do a search. Locate the threads on this. Read the posts by machinists about this. Then enlighten them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
You can't expect a 3.6/4.1 drill to start where and how you want it to freehand. So you don't. You mark, then punch or pilot, then clamp on a bushing concentric and normal to the point...I use machined tools to complete each of these steps.
I believe you do, and I believe you're really good at this. Said so. Explicitly. I'd trust you to do a hand mount anytime. But do you really think you're typical? I've watched plenty of shop techs mount, and if you believe that they do what you've just described, I have some land off Florida I'd love to sell you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
For a ski I'm perfectly happy with 1mm max position error
Sure, but what happens when one hole is i mm to the left, another is 1 mm to the rear, and you get the idea. You're misunderstanding or misstating the nature of cumulative error and how it affects final fit. Or stresses on the connection between ski and plate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
I'm just a guy that has developed his own method of doing it well enough for most.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
You have an amazingly fertile imagination for an old guy.
Thank you. I try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
I perform mounts without jigs.....when I don't have a jig handy. Otherwise, why waste my time achieving results that ski the same? And no, I'm no John Henry type. Shop work is not my favorite work except for when something unique is going on...I like challenges and problems to solve.
Never really assumed you were anti-machine, but our personas both tend toward hyperbole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
One of my hobbies is building machines, including those controlled by software and electronics. I darken the door of machine shops now and again as a result, and I'm more than happy to pay someone to provide me with accuracy I can't achieve easily at home. I don't actually care if they decide to set it up by hand or with G-code...why would I care if they achieve what the drawing asked for?
See your point, and bet you come up with some great sh*t. OTOH, I'm one of those types who's really curious about the process, why one way is better than another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
I don't know about you, but I don't like completing questionable work.
DING DING DING!!! Exactly. Nor paying for it, I bet. Which is why I started this mud wrestling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
when I find my measurement tools I'd love to compare my "freehand" mount to my latest jig mount. Got a pair of each sitting right here without binders and now you've made me curious.
Good. Part of my job. Now go do the chicken soup.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Anyone know where the Tyrolia dealers in NE went?