Originally Posted by Garrett
Because what you want is weird and highly unusual.
You're right. Expecting that a place that advertises a line will actually carry it, know about it, and have the assorted mounting gear is highly weird and unusual.
Originally Posted by Garrett
And maybe, just maybe, you have the same dick attitude on the phone you have here.
Unlikely many on this forum - including you - interact like this in the real world because we wouldn't get very far, would we? Oh, sorry, you have a very sunny, neutral attitude. Forgot.
Originally Posted by Garrett
Ski binding jigs are assembled from stamped steel and rubber parts that are neither stiff nor free from lash when installed, and HS is completely correct.
As usual, when you can't find a hole in my argument, you mischaracterize it and then attack the straw man. Never said that jigs are free from error, did I? In fact, stated that " ANY way to make holes in flat surface, from a $29.95 hand drill to robotic industrial setups, has an error term attached. Not the point." So wow, you and HS are dead on. Jigs can create errors too. Stop the presses!
Look, I'll give you a the short lesson. Usually get $400-600 an hour for consulting or expert testimony, but hey, you're worth it.
1) All measurements, and then all actions based on those measurements, include error. This error can be broken down into an instrumental component (innate to the design and function of the instrument or tool), and a human component (innate to the design and function of the person using the instrument or tool.) OK so far?
2) Each of these components can have their reliability measured. That includes their accuracy (ability to approach some gold standard that is taken to be the best possible measurement of some real referent, say a perfect hole) and their reproducibility (ability of the machine or instrument or person to make the same hole, time after time.) If you have more than one caliper or one person making the holes, you get into inter-observer/instrument error, but let's postulate just one of everything.
3) All types of error can also be thought of as being made of systematic bias (a caliper that reads high, a shop guy who tends to always be a few degrees north of vertical when he drills), and random deviation (a drill bit that wobbles eccentrically, a shop guy who is new and tends to be a little wide this time, a touch narrow the next.)
4) The reliability difference between machines and people becomes one of tolerance and learning curves. A machine can only approach its design parameters. However, these usually surpass what a human arm and hand and eye and brain can do unaided. A cheap ruler maybe not, a caliper definitely.
Over time a machine/tool/instrument will seat in and may actually improve its error, and then gradually wear and increase its various kinds of error. People, by contrast, will learn and get better, to a point. In certain measurements of living systems, for instance, it may take 1,000 trys to reduce your error to acceptable limits. Practice doesn't make perfect, but it helps your aim.
5) For all that, humans cannot achieve the same reliability as machines; it's a fact of our neurobiology. As a result, ON AVERAGE a system of machine/tool plus human will be more reliable than just a human, and a fully robotic system will, in theory, be more reliable still. We began to rely on tools maybe 6 million years ago, and the trend hasn't stopped.
This is why, for instance, using jigs and templates allowed mass production of revolvers that previousy had to be individually fitted together. Parts become interchangable when you can reduce error sufficiently through the introduction of guides to meet necessary tolerances. It's also why cars built in 1940 needed rebuilds every 6-10,000 miles. Nowadays a well cared for engine without weak spots like a timing belt can go 150,000 to 200,000 without being taken apart. Better templates with closer tolerances, more robots, more computers guiding the drills and presses. Yes, they allow faster production, save the costs of using people. Which has other costs. But they also can produce lower error, if that's what the designers want. (I'll return to this issue)
5) As a result, an experienced shop tech who is careful (certainly this would include you and HS) may well outperform an inexperienced tech who's using a jig in a hurry. Let alone a cheap jig. But you know as well as I do that an experienced tech WITH a good jig will produce a more accurate hole than the same tech WITHOUT a jig. Without a jig, your standard deviation of error will run about 1 mm each way horizontally, 2 mm over all, even if you're an ace and have a really good drill. More typically 3 mm overall. A jig can help there, although it may or may not help with deviations off vertical; depends on the jig depth and design.
6) Machines and tools and instruments are only as reliable as their manufacturers find economical. Pay less, get less. Obviously a cheap stamped sheet metal jig will include some measurement error. Obviously the factory mounting systems that Head uses have less. But does that cheap jig have as much error as your hand trying to guide in a spinning drill bit to a pinpoint that (may) represent true center? Hmmm.
7) This idea that we can't outperform machines/tools seems to bother the hell out of people who feel they are are competing with same. Some of you here sound a lot like 21t century John Henry's, who still want to fight the pile driver. Ah, where is that "old world" craftsmanship? I know, let's use hand crank drills. Think of the electricity we'd save. And screw those calipers or templates, let's just use the old eyeballs. Rub our hands lovingly over the grin of the topsheet and intuit where the holes should go. Bet I can beat some damn ruler.
Now notice that I never questioned your skill or HS's You're both worlds better than I am at any of this, I'm sure. And if I weren't, HS set me straight. So this was never about whether or not I could mount a ski effectively. (Given my limited equipment, sloth, and wet basement, no.)
But what we ARE talking about is that it's not unreasonable to ask unknown stores who appear uninformed about jigs, since all things considered, they'll help reliability, especially of less experienced mounters. If I find their responses funny or frustrating, not sure that automatically means I'm being a dick. Little touchy, are we?
The funny thing here is that my whole argument has a big hole in it that you never caught cuz you were too busy huffing and puffing about how good, ah, hand jobs were and how weird my questions were: What functional differences result from the error in using a caliper and hand drill versus a jig and same?
Skier 219 showed a while back that the advantage of a sliding plate to actual ski flex was nearly trivial. It's possible the same applies to a few mm of error in where the mount ends up. But you never addressed that cuz you can't own up to that few mm. Oh well...