or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › dumb question about tip lead, pulling back the inside foot
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

dumb question about tip lead, pulling back the inside foot - Page 2

post #31 of 101
weems said: There is no where else for it to go. As I tip the legs further in (countered or not), the inside leg gets shorter and shorter. It basically gets squeezed, and the hips won't allow it to back out of the way, so it naturally wants to go forward out of the way.

This is such a true statement, IMHO. Furthermore, when you couple that squeezing action with a stiff boot, you are almost guaranteed for the inside foot to slide forward (unless you resist that move). That is why one has to make a conscious effort to pull (or keep) the inside foot back.

However, this argument actually supports Rusty's statement that tip lead is a symptom. In general, it seems to be the result (effect) of a flexing/squeezing leg that cannot flex the ankles due to stiff boots.
post #32 of 101
I ski in a Lange L10 Race. Also stiff (Granted, I have 200# to push it), but no, it doesn't need to move much. And remember, you're not moving it (closing the ankle) for the sake of moving it, you do it only to be properly positioned for the transition to the new turn. The way I can tell if a student has that foot in the proper positon is to do turns where, while still completing (for example) a left turn, lift the right ski, just barely off the snow. You should still be turning left. Then move into the right turn, not putting the right ski completely on the snow until you are facing the fall line. If your left ankle was closed enough during the end of the left turn, the right turn initiation on the left foot should be completely smooth and effortless, with no pause for your body to catch up to the ski, because it's already there. And because you are on the sweet spot of the ski, the edge should hook right up to be able to carve the top of the turn (you won't need to skid the tail out to maintain balance or throw anything to the side to get on the edge).
post #33 of 101
Just standing on the side of a slope, your uphill foot will need to be either in front of your downhill foot, or the ankle, knee and hip flexed more, due to the physical properties that your legs are equal length, but the distance to the ground is not equal for both feet.
post #34 of 101
Do you folks really think about your skis and feet when moving down a slope? Isn't skiing instinctive at your ski level, or is this just an instructors thing always wanting to analyze.

To me skiing is a flowing motion and the body and skis will find their own comfortable and proper place during a turn.

I think what you refer to as pulling back the inside ski really has nothing to do to reduce tip lead, it simply increases the forward pressure on the inside ski tip and makes that ski carve a tighter radius, which it should.

But that happens automatically unless all your weight is on the outside ski and the inside ski is just floating along.

But then, I may be misunderstanding this whole thread, happens now and then :

post #35 of 101

Thanks for that. I was wondering the same thing. I look at all those great pictures of WC skiers carving through turns and see a great deal of "tip lead" but look at all the angles(knees shoulders, ankles, waist, and usually they are all parallel. Look at my own video, and my ankles are not not "parallel with the rest of my body. It shows more in the tracks I leave behind. one carved trench one light track. Maybe it's not the tip lead we need to work on but the feel of carving both skis and the "pull back" of the inside ski is more an exercise to accomplish better alignment and a stronger inside half, not so much to make our "tip lead" go away. Or maybe I'm just over thinking this? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #36 of 101
Wait a minute: This ISN'T the StarTrek forum? Oh well!

Anyway, as analytical as I may sometimes come across, I ski with my feet and by FEEL - anything else would spoil the fun! Does that make me a bad person (skier)?

Uh-oh, it's starting to look as if if may be time to resurrect XSCHUSS!
post #37 of 101
I'm w/ ott & dchan. Ski it like you feel it. I ski for the enjoyment not the physics.
post #38 of 101
Thread Starter 

that matters to me, too. thing is, the more i learn about skiing, from "the feel," the more i realize that i do need further understanding of the physics of it. some of the tech talk lands on a receptor now and then, and there's kind of an "aha!" experience when someone suggests something, that i'd never have thought of, that might apply to skiing disfluencies i'm experiencing.
post #39 of 101
Ott said: Do you folks really think about your skis and feet when moving down a slope? Isn't skiing instinctive at your ski level, or is this just an instructors thing always wanting to analyze.

I cannot answer for the instructors, but for myself, I would say that my skiing is purposeful rather than instinctive. In other words, I generally think about what I am doing. In very difficult conditions or at high speed instinct takes over (this is natural for anyone) and I can only hope that my technique does not deteriorate.

Bye the way, I am not against tip lead. I just think that pulling the foot back feels soooo good. The inside foot engages really well and gives you a great carve. When I do it in an exaggerated way I feel like a telemarker - and I never telemarked in my life (yet I bet I could learn quite easily)!
post #40 of 101
I agree with you ryan. What I mean is "while" I am skiing I just enjoy the sensations. When I stop, then I think about the movements.
post #41 of 101
"...and there's kind of an 'A Ha!' experience when someone suggests something that I'd never have thought of that might apply to skiing 'disinfluences' I've been experiencing."

Ryan -
I, too, LOVE that 'A Ha!' feeling!

[ May 24, 2002, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Tominator ]
post #42 of 101
Thread Starter 
given the thread and some of the back and forth, i find it perfect that "disfluencies" became "disinfluences." PERFECT! don't change it.
post #43 of 101
Sometimes I think about it, sometimes I don't (and sometimes I feel like a nut) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I usually start off instinctual, but then, something will go wrong, and I'll start to analyze what I'm doing. It gets boring on our little 900 vert hill, so I need to occupy my mind when I'm free skiing.

[ May 24, 2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: JohnH ]
post #44 of 101
Wow, thanks for the great discussion, guys! Sorry, SCSA, but I actually do find these extended discussions of the physics and biomechanics of skiing to be tremendously beneficial to my enjoyment and understanding of our sport. By thinking the physics through, then working on drills that optimize the biomechanics, the feel gets so much better!!

Like dchan, I've been struggling with getting and keeping the inside ski's edge engaged and achieving early edge transition into the new turn. This thread has given me one of those "Aha!" moments we all love. Can't wait to try it on the snow instead of in my head!
post #45 of 101
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:

When I try to "pull back" or close the ankle on my inside foot I often sense there isn't much to pull back and/or my range of motion is very limited.
I don't think range of motion is important here (although, yes, the boot may be too stiff). What is important for my feeling is just the sense of "holding it back" and feeling the pressure on the shin. When I do that (Ott) my skis feel great, and I don't have to think. It sort of cues up all the sensations of performance I'm looking for. Maybe this is a definition of "fundamental".

But I have to be active about it. And I have to be "knee forward/foot back".
post #46 of 101
Puzzled expression on face:

"knee forward/foot back"
The knee being forward is a given, isn't it, if the foot is back?
post #47 of 101
'Disfluencies', 'Disinfluences', 'Discrepancies', 'Disconceptions', 'Discoverings', 'Discombobulations', 'Disinformings', 'Disestablishmentarianisms' - Sorry Ryan, I didn't mean to 'Dis' you!
post #48 of 101
Now I'm going to toss a very large wrench into the works.

I try to avoid my boot tongue being leveraged (see the thread about "The Great Quiz"). When turning right I seek to feel pressure on the medial/inside of my right shin. This will be confusing to anyone who hasn't explored the great quiz. This is due to supination.

I feel as thoug I engage the front of my ski well when my upper body is out over the forebody of my ski and my tib/fib is fairly neutral in my boot. I tell students it's the same posture they would assume if they were going to upchuck and didn't want to sully the Bogner one piece. The drop lands on the toepiece of their binding!

We have no Bogner types at Eldora.

Now I'll never get another teaching job.....I'll be at Eldora or Hidden Valley forever. Ski school sure gets lonely at the Valley.
post #49 of 101
Rusty, no matter where your body is, if you want the shovel of the ski to bite more than the tail you will have to transmit that to the ski somehow.

The ski, being this inert dumb thing, needs input from the skier. Input number one is edging. Going fast it is easy to get a high edge, not so easy when going slow(er). Edging involves angulation when going slow and either angulation or banking when going fast. Higher edge angle is not always an option when going slow unless you twist yourself up like a pretzel.

Input number two is leverage. Neutral with edging the skis go in a curve of whatever sidecut is engaged.
Back leverage, transmitted to the skis by leaning against the back of the boots,with edging, bends the tails but doesn't help the tip to come around and most likely, if more than a momentary thing, will allow the tips to drift. If done purposely it results in a squirting motion.

Forward leverage, transmitted to the skis by pressing against the tongue of the boot while edging will result in the tips bending more and the skis coming around in a tighter radius.

No matter what you do with your body, if nothing is transmitted to your skis they will just go their merry way. I know the present vogue is to say it has to start with your feet, but no matter what you do with your feet, unless they are unbuckeled and sloppy, it is the shaft of the boot fitting around your shins that do the actual transmitting.

And that transmitting to the skis is not done by merely leaning up to the tongue,etc. or having a softer boot. The transmitting starts only after the boot will no longer yield to the leverage and then the leverage effects the ski. This goes for edging also, just stand straight on your skis and try to edge them with your feet, good luck.

Rotary, weighting, et al, come into play somewhat, but the upshot is that it has to be transmitted to the boots and through them to the skis.

Rusty, though I addressed this to you, it isn't really meant for you personally, just addressing what you said, and I couldn't make myself a picture of how the skis would know what to do without the leveraging input. Otherwise it is just a park 'n ride.

And I've skied with you and you ski great.

post #50 of 101
I think the meaning was drive the knee forward while holding the foot back. Does that make more sense?
post #51 of 101
Good explaination Ott.
I have two pairs of boots. A pair of Nordica Dobermans(soft)(150 flex) and a pair of "coaches boots" that I ski with the hinge unlocked most of the time. I can make pretty much the same tracks with both but to do so in the soft boots requires almost a "telemark"move where the inside foot is behind the other. When you "pull back" the stiff boot you basically rock it up on the toe, so it's not necessary to pull it back much to get the same effect. Goes back to what I said earlier,"it depends on what note your trying to play with that ski".
Another thought occurred to me about "body positions"and "movement patterns". Can an expert "air guitar" player play good music? My answer would be: sometimes, yes, often, no.
post #52 of 101

It makes sense. It's a new way of describing the action of the inside leg for me.

I do feel I "draw the circle," with the inside foot. For that reason, I prefer to have a responsive boot, very thin stockings, and closely clipped toenails, because I want the boot to fit like second skin to promote feeling in the foot. I found that, given my pipsqueak size, a man's racing boot was blocking my ability to feel. I got into an appropriate boot (at much less cost, I might add) and voila! I could really feel the snow. This was two years ago. To me, my skiing improved light years. To others, maybe the difference wasn't so noticeable. But in terms of the quality of my experience--the sensuousness of it, really--the difference was like night and day.

I think good skiing is all about FEEL. (I am a kinesthetic, you know...even though I masquerade as a cognitive.) I think if you have good feel, good timing and good balance come with the package.

[ May 26, 2002, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #53 of 101
"I am a kinesthetic, you know...even though I masquerade as a cognitive!" (Nolo)

Wow - I LOVE that! Couldn't have said it better myself!
post #54 of 101
I once had a conversation with Tamara McKinny(only seat on the bus at Blackcomb that wasn't taken)where she told me she raced her entire career in jr boots. I have always reccomended jr boots to my women athletes. At least until they wanted stiffer. My 6ft 190 lb stepdaughter used Nordica GP 80s.
For racing and high performance fast skiing I like the quick, precise transfer I get from a stiffer boot. The "coaches" boots are the way to go when you have to be out there from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM, or for teaching my grandchildren. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #55 of 101
I think the tide is finally turning for women as far as equipment goes. The K2 T-9 women's ski is a sizzler, narrow waisted, nice shape, quick, responsive, all-mountain, and a striking royal blue color.

A couple of years ago I wouldn't have been caught dead on a powderpuff ski. I would have been insulted at the very suggestion.

Today I slap a sticker on the shovel that says "Chicks Rule!" and back it up.
post #56 of 101
I just don't understand why skiing can't be paint by numbers.

Primary movements, applied specifically to; groomers, bumps, steeps and powder.

I guess it's too simple.

Or maybe I'm just some kind of freak of nature.
post #57 of 101
SCSA - you'd love my Thredbo instructor - he is the same.
I complain that it all 'feels' different to me.

He just says 'do the movements you have learnt - they still apply' He does confess some adjustment may need to be made - but gets annoyed when I start 'farting around' because I decide it is different
post #58 of 101

I tend to agree that skiing can be broken down into a few basic movement patterns. What I tell my students when they ask what they will have to do different when they venture off the groomed or want to make a short quick turn instead of the medium radius turn we have been making is that its all the same damn turn. We just vary the timing, intensity, duration and pace of the movement patterns to match the demands of the terrain we are skiing and the type of turn we want to make.

On the original subject of the thread. I teach the pulling/ holding back of the inside foot if I see the inside foot constantly creeping forward through the turn or if the ski lead is so great the the skier seems to be stuck between the skis and has their ability to move hampered by this.

One place that this excessive ski lead and creeping forward of the inside ski comes from is from teaching the student that to shuffle the old outside ski forward is a way to initiate a new turn.

post #59 of 101
Looks like Your Highness wants to make some turns with the boys.
post #60 of 101
Only those that can keep up SCSA!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › dumb question about tip lead, pulling back the inside foot