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Garmont Endorphine not compatable with Marker Duke?

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Okay, so I have been thoroughly enjoying my Pocket Rockets/Marker Dukes and skins the last couple of seasons and I was all sorts of stoked to get a really sweet deal on some Endorphins and drop over a lb. from each foot, gain the walking feature and the interchangable DIN/vibram soles and save my regular alpine boots that I had been using - for regular alpine skiing.
After spending all last evening and the better part of a 6pak out in the shop fitting/adjusting and heating my new bc beautys (not complainin' ), I discovered today when I went out to adjust the AFD like I expected to have to do for the rockered vibram sole and move the heel up for a slightly shorter BSL before a little shake down cruise up the hill that shadows my house - THE HEEL WOULDN'T LOCK DOWN ON THE BOOT!!!!! What the hecky!!! AT boot... AT binding...
When compared to the alpine boot the Endorphine heel looks to be 4 - 5 mm taller with the vibram sole. Although the DIN sole checks out 4 0z. lighter on the scale I WANT THE TRACTION OF THE VIBRAM! I had heard something about the Dukes chewing up boots. Is this because the boot with the thicker sole on it can be stuffed in the binding when it is on your foot? I only tried it by hand on the bench. I swapped the soles and went for a cruise and REALLY liked them them for the most part (maybe a little more tweakin' - no surprise), but did I mention, I WANT THE TRACTION OF THE VIBRAM! I coulda walked the beaten path the whole way up easily with the vibram soles but didn't in order to try the boots in climb mode.
Should this boot work with the Dukes with the vibrams or or they intended to work with Fritchsi's or Naxo's? Definitely not Dynafits......

As always, any help is greatly appreciated!
post #2 of 22
This is not good, I run G3's and Dukes and I too was going to go for the Endorphins. The reason; stiff, walk mode, and lug sole. I sure hope someone else with the setup replies, I'd like to know before I hit the order button.
post #3 of 22
I wouldn’t imaginge the Vibram sole of the Endorphine is significantly different to the Vibram sole of the Adrenaline, so I'll put in my $0.02 worth from that perspective.....

I have both the Fritschi Freeride + (mounted on G3 Barons) and Marker Duke (mounted on Stoeckli Stormrider XXLs). I now use the Adrenaline with the DIN sole virtually all of the time. The reasons - because the boots are always worn in the snow; and I don't trust binding release characteristics with the Vibram sole in place (as a result of a painful and almost serious incident).

The heel piece of the Fritschi Freeride + is different to the Duke (I cannot comment on the Naxo). I believe the 2 prongs that engage the heel in the Freeride is more forgiving and adapts to the Vibram sole better than the pure DIN arrangement of the Duke. However, that said, the Vibram sole does compress, so try it again while booted up. Also, and this may be the issue, I have found a need (Duke more than Freeride) to adjust the binding length when swapping between Vibram and DIN soles.

While on compression of the Vibram sole; stuffing the heel into the Duke binding isn’t so critical, but please make sure you adjust the toe height correctly. You should just be able to pull a piece of paper from between the boot and the AFD pad, without tearing when the toe height is set correctly.
post #4 of 22
Endorphins and Dukes should absolutely work. I've skied the Endorphin the past two seasons and loved the boot. I can't imagine any reason the heal won't lock down on that binding. I've been on Dukes using my Endorphins so I know from experience it works. Now, that was not my personal setup so I wasn't on it daily but it worked fine and I did ski it a few times. I'm currently using the Radium without any troubles either. The only thing I can think of is that the forward pressure is a bit off. Try playing with that
post #5 of 22
I always use a business card on my AFD setting and then crank in the Forward Pressure screw on the Duke’s so it sits just inside the back casting. Some tell me the business card allows too much room on the AFD, but I like the fact it releases faster and I run below DIN. But then again I’ve ripped my MCL years back.

4cznskier – Thanks for starting the thread sounds like some good feedback for the others.
post #6 of 22
FWIW: my dukes have been chewing my nordica TR9s. Appears to be a mighty clamp & a squishy sole............
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post
FWIW: my dukes have been chewing my nordica TR9s. Appears to be a mighty clamp & a squishy sole............
They (Dukes) also chew my Lange Comp 100s. One hungry binding.
post #8 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I have found a need (Duke more than Freeride) to adjust the binding length when swapping between Vibram and DIN soles.
Interesting - I was having to adjust for a different length boot anyway but I will look at this more.


Quote:
You should just be able to pull a piece of paper from between the boot and the AFD pad, without tearing when the toe height is set correctly.
Roger that!

Quote:
Endorphins and Dukes should absolutely work.
Hey - great to hear! My sense was they could be stuffed into the binding with boot on foot but am unsure about releasing reliably.

Quote:
The only thing I can think of is that the forward pressure is a bit off. Try playing with that
I played with it a bit but will try again. Beginning to wonder if there is a little "interplay" between the forward pressure and AFD adjustments.

I think I will contact Garmont and see what they say about this.

Edwin - to be clear, not sure what your need for the vibram sole is, but the regular DIN sole worked no problem at all. I went for a little longer tour today and am likeing them very much! I like a boot that makes a ski respond with subtle input. These are the stiffest boots I've ever owned but not finding them uncomfortable at all. Climbing up with them in walk mode and top buckles loosened (they have a handy "touring clip" at the end of the rack to park the buckle bail on) they felt like comfortable, but supportive, hiking boots. Skiing down they felt nice and solid and responsive! Snow was well consolidated old snow with a nicely edgable surface - maybe an inch of penetration is all. Not particularly steep terrain/fast speeds either, so I don't feel like I really pushed them much....
post #9 of 22
4cznskier - Thanks for the report sounds like a winner for rigidity and climb ability. I was thinking the Vibram sole would be better suited for crampons and dirt/rock hikes. We are still in spring type conditions with lots dry ground to get to what snow we had and we should be getting right now. Good to hear that you and others are having success with the Duke’s and like the performance of the boots overall. I need a stiff boot, but didn’t care for the quality issues I hear about with BD’s, and Garmont has always seemed to make a nice quality boot. Best of luck.
post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Edwin... We are still in spring type conditions ...
You down under?

Quote:
didn’t care for the quality issues I hear about with BD’s...
I have heard a bit of noise regarding screws coming loose on the Garmonts at the ankles and the toepieces I think. Planning to keep a close eye on these and give any culprits a little loctite. It's also been recommended to take care with the screws that hold the soles on and DON'T use a power driver! (At least not without EXTREME care, I think they are just threaded into plastic)
post #11 of 22
Actually I’m south or in the shadow of Mt. San Gorgonio in the San Bernardino’s of Southern California. San Gorgonio sits at 11,499 and will hold snow from fall till late July some years. This year it has been extremely mild and most of our snow has sun cupped, turned to ice, or worst and disappeared. They call this a La Nina year which means we will have very unreliable precipitation, so all we can do is hope.

I’ve read the screws can work loose and just checking them from time to time should do. But on BD’s I’ve read and been told by guys using them that buckles break and sometimes the walk/ski fails. I think BD just needs time to work the kinks out as they are a top notch group and I’m sure they already on it.
post #12 of 22
I completely understand the need for the vibram sole. I am backcountry a lot. By a lot I'm backcountry about 90 days a years. In the backcountry you're going to walk a lot. You'll be scrambling up rocks, using crampons, etc. The DIN sole is a nice feature but in the bc you're going to want the vibram.
post #13 of 22

Marker Barons

I'm a little late on this thread, but I use Garmont Endorphines with my Marker Barons and have no problems at all clicking in. There is some resistance with the rubber sole on the heel hitting the heel-piece of the binding, but not too bad.

Of course the Barons are a bit different than Dukes, but not so different as to not be relevant to your problem with Dukes.

I had mine professionally mounted BTW. So can't talk to anythign technical about what makes them work. . .
post #14 of 22
Thread Starter 
Well I swapped the soles back today, booted up, and stomped those suckers in! It is indeed a "squishy vibram" thing! I imagine they are made just a little taller to compensate for that and to allow for a little wear maybe. I thought they probably would go in but I guess I just wanted some reassurance from others who are doing it without a lot of problems.
I can understand the skepticisim in the release reliability with the vibram sole. If the heel is compressed, I guess it probably adds a little different dynamic in the release forces. Also, looking at the AFD adjustment again, I was noticing how there is a void in the lug pattern of the sole in that area with a different material there above the AFD. Upon close inspection while making the adjustment with the boot in the binding I could see that the longitudinal, heel to toe, length of the AFD is a little bigger than the void so no matter what, the lugs on one side (front/back) or the other, or both, would hang on the AFD a little. Whats more, the sole is just a teensy bit closer on one side (L/R) so when it passed the paper test the other side was maybe 5 mm off the surface of the AFD. I ended up just centering the AFD under the void and accepting a little more contact on side and a little more space on the other side than what is ideal. (I think) Maybe all this isn't quite so critical with the Dukes and their gliding AFD. (I hope)
So I am really jazzed about being able to use the vibram sole, I actually wore the boots for about 3 hrs around the house, out in the shop, out in the snow, I even split a little kindling before I took them off! The walking feature and the rockered sole make them walk so nice it's hard to believe they turn into the solid, responsive downhillers that they are. I still have at least one little pressure point and some heel bite on the right side to address but not so bad that I won't put a few miles in these babys first.




Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated

NOW JUST SNOW DAMMIT!!!!

post #15 of 22
I've used my Adrenalin's (same sole as the Endorphin's as far as I can tell) in the Dukes with no problem. The Dukes do wear on the toes a bit if you don't get the height right on the toe piece. I don't use this combination much. I usually use my alpine boots with the Dukes for short climbs. I like the Adrenalin with the Fritschi FR+ and the Fritschi Explore. Easier touring, lighter, easier to work with and more convenient than the Dukes. Slight downhill performance difference, but you adapt after a run or two. No significant performance difference vs. Duke in soft snow.
post #16 of 22
I’m setting my Duke’s up right now with a set of Endorphins. My lugged soles were touching the AFD too. But I kept fooling with it and I got it were I actually have a gap thicker (more clearance) than a business card. At least I did till I put my foot in. Looks like even with a gap the boot will rest or seat down where the back or trailing lugs behind the AFD gap in the boot sole will touch. Worries me a bit too, but I’ve been running my DIN about two level below what I should anyway. I put the ski on its side and gave a firm push on the boot toe and the sliding AFD let the toe out with little or no hesitation, but the heel was another story. I found that the heel is more resistant to come free when compared to the DIN soles of my Alpine boot and that’s with the typical FP as should be.

Guess I’ll test it this weekend, but I think based on pushing the toe up and down, I’ll get some effects from that when skiing. Maybe I won’t notice it, but it is noticeable when pulling the toe up to have the higher gap and then pushing it down when ski is sitting on the bench. Guess I can adjust it closer (less clearance), but is it safe? Seems like a closer clearance on the AFD where a business card just has a bit of resistance, will have the aft lugs sitting down too hard on the plate once in the boot and skiing. Guess I’ll keep my DIN low just a bit longer till I test on snow release.

4cznskier – sounds like your letting the aft lugs touch just slightly when checking it on the bench, if I’m reading correct. Have you skied it yet and did it feel safe enough?
Thanks
post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I’m setting my Duke’s up right now with a set of Endorphins.
Congrats! Sounds like you found a shop to get you all fitted up?

Quote:
4cznskier – sounds like your letting the aft lugs touch just slightly when checking it on the bench, if I’m reading correct. Have you skied it yet and did it feel safe enough?
Thanks
I can't seem to get the AFD adjusted so neither the fore or aft lugs don't touch just a little bit. I am actually considering shaving some of the lugs just a skosh to gain clearance. No, I haven't skied them since I swapped the soles back.
Some other things I have noted;
The lateral stiffness of the Endorphine/Duke combination is AWESOME!
Ease of entry/exit is very good - nice slippy material on the inside of the liner upper. I don't even bother with floppin' the outer tongue forward like it will.
Not much of a fan of the laces on the liner so far. I can't help but lose a little purchase when I tye them. There is not quite enough lace to wrap my calf once and then tye them. Thinking about the possibility of adapting some sort of cord synch/lock that will hold tight and not get in the way.
And forget about trying to hunt any game in these boots - they are some squeaky buggers!
post #18 of 22
Some points on the lacing...Garmont used that for years and then, a few years ago, got rid of the laces because they felt people didn't use it. They brought it back 2-3 years ago because so many people were asking for it. The laces are really not designed to tighten the liner when skiing. In fact, many people doing short hikes only remove the laces as their a bother. If, on the other hand, you hike a lot the laces are nice to have. They allow you to snug the liner a bit when the boot buckles are loose and thereby reduce blisters and hot spots from the foot sliding around inside the liner while walking. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the laces. Just remember that they don't need to be very tight to work well
post #19 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skierhj View Post
They allow you to snug the liner a bit when the boot buckles are loose and thereby reduce blisters and hot spots from the foot sliding around inside the liner while walking.
I suspected I was not quite understanding the rationale behind their use. Thanks!
post #20 of 22
Now, the real way to test those boots is to get out in the BC and have a good time. I really like the Endorphin, I'd still be using it if they hadn't come out with the wrap around boots (Radium & Helium, et al)
post #21 of 22
Yea lucked out and found a fitter about 1.5 hr drive south of my place. Took vacation time from work to go get fitted. Right foot was perfect even before heating. Left was another story. We had to cut extra pieces of foam and pad my hot spots and cook the boot twice. Felt good on the second heat fitting, but last night they felt a bit bothersome again. It will take time as the liner is very think and I’m using a “C” green Superfeet. If the left still feels like it needs adjusting, I'll switch back to the thinner foot bed, or shave down the base of the left foot superfeet. I’ll know after a few days in the boot.

AFD-wise, I went back and readjusted my clearance till the business card just had a slight drag and that limited the toe movement in the binding to where it seems suitable, unless the toe starts have problems.

Word is Garmont is changing the Endorphin color to ”black” next year, so I got mine cheaper than I found on the web and that included thermo fitting and any additional help I need in the future. Sure glad I kept searching.
post #22 of 22

I forgot to readjust the BSL when I swithed back to my Lange Freeride 120's and noticed the heel piece had "chewed" the heels up.  Partly my fault since the bindings were adjusted a little long.  However, after I reset them they still seemed to be knawing more plastic off.  Went to the garage and grabbed my old Lange Comp 100 shells (same size exactly) and clamped them into the bindings with no problem and no heel chewing.  So I guess that all heels are not created equally.  These heels are also replaceable, so I don't know if that maybe has something to do with it?  But it would really suck to get the heels of some brand new one piece shell boots.

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