New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

turn Initiation...

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
This post may seem a bit strange... but here goes.. As I work on my short turns - I find that the steeper the run and the shorter the turn the more I get into the back seat. I'm working on it with success, but I'm looking for technique info. I have been told that I have good balance/pivot etc skills when observed by level 3/4 (Ontario) I'm looking for a description of the positions/feeling (what should I feel in the way of feedback) as I start the initiation into the middle phase of the turn.
If I do one turn on a very steep icy slope and finish in a balanced position - skis across the fall line, balanced, upper body separation with the upper body down the hill, pole plant - ready to release the edges - flattening the skis and roll into the new turn - now I use one turn to try to explain my question - starting the next phase - I know that I want is to have the CoM continue down the hill and have my feet behind me to start - out around my CoM and end up ahead of me at the end of the turn as I absorb. I ski like this but I am really trying to ingrain this into all aspects of my sking - hense in SR turns I dont feel as this is a constant feeling as it is in MR & LR turns (I can cruse all day) Now I also fight knee and back issues - so MR & LR are easy - SR & bumps are not - so the later are my focus this year..
To initiate - it was explained to me years ago as pitching the upper body down the hill between the tip of the downhill ski that is across the hill and the pole plant - recently it was described as a pedaling motion, so I want to start a rh turn - the skis are across the fall line to the left - pole plant and using the uphill leg of the old turn use the pedal stroke motion (push down) to topple the upper body down the hill. BUT I have heard and read here on this forum about relaxing the downhill leg (of the old turn) to start the initiation - I can't figure out this move and what relaxing the leg should feel like. I have also read about 'pushing open the door' with my 'new' inside knee - I can see this as being a strong move to flatten the ski but I think I'm getting lost in the terminology and I am over thinking the sequence. I realize that I have over simplified but could someone give a sequence of events that I could work thru. (and a drill for getting the upper body motion going in the correct direction)
Now I may not use the correct terminology or word myself clearly so please if I'm not clear say so and I'll re-post etc..


Thanks for reading..
post #2 of 16
You seem to have a good verbal grasp of these types of release moves. Here's an exercise that might help you feel the difference between them.
Get a partner and a ski pole. If you both grab an end of the pole and pull on it you should feel like you are resisting the pull of your partner. Especially in the leg closest to your partner. It will be long and strong. If one of you extends their back leg so that it is the same length as the front one, your partner will pull you over to them easily. Notice how much your hips move up and over the feet because the outside leg is staying the same length. If like on a bicycle you also flex the front leg they can pull you over even easier because you are in effect pushing yourself over to them with the extention movement of the back leg.

The second way to do this is to allow your partner to pull you towards them by relaxing the front leg and letting it flex as you are being pulled towards them. Try to concentrate on the feeling of the hips moving horizontally towards them. As the front leg flexes you can also externally rotate the knee (towards your partner) as a trigger but it is the hips moving across the feet that is most important here. Hope this helps
post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 
Just..

Nicely worded..


I'll print and take with me next time out...
Is letting the 'new' inside leg flex at the same time as the back leg extension the desired 'way'? I can see that this makes the turn easier to get the hip thru..
I will also assume for the minute that the 'flexing' of the new inside leg is timed with the absorption at the last phase of the previous turn - so the flexing is really part of the absorption phase, and the extension of the back leg is part of the un-weighting phase where the 'back' leg has a stronger push than the 'front' leg so that we will 'topple' over the 'short' front leg. - correct?

Now is there any difference in this between MR & SR turns? other than the speed at which the motion takes place. Or in the case of steep and 'junk' (slush - or cut up heavy stuff) where I think that we want a stronger un-weighting motion to make it easier to pivot.

Thanks
post #4 of 16
In the first drill the outside (back) leg is obviously more actively extending than in the second drill. The only thing it does is the second drill is keep the back foot on the floor. If you add too much active extention in the back leg you will end up doing the first drill again.
So the comparative analysis here should give you a good idea about the use of the back leg. Which as you pointed out is the old inside leg. The flexing of the outside leg starts somewhere around or just after the apex of a turn. So as you start the new turn and it becomes the new inside leg, this flexing continues. I would be quick to point out that if you wait to begin that flexing it will need to happen quicker the later in the turn you start the movement. If you make the transition begin at the end of the control phase and make it last until you enter control phase of the next turn you hava a lot of time to get this accomplished. Even in SL turns
post #5 of 16
Thread Starter 
Thank you ..

think snow.....
post #6 of 16
Just a caution, db9: You do not want to develop just one way to ski in all circumstances. You want a variety of ways to choose from to use as the most appropriate tactic for what ever condition/terrain you encounter.
post #7 of 16
Thread Starter 
Kneale..
Yes.. Yes.. tell me more...
This is something that I have been stuggling with for years.. the concept of what changes in technique with the change in condition/terrain.
The basic change that I make in going from dynamic turns (hip width stance) to powder (platform stance) to bumps/steep (more of the platform type stance) but I have never had a real outline of what changes in what condition - could you elaborate? I know it could be volumes of experience but I'd really want to know what to learn and experience - and at my age (I'm 52 but the body is something more than that ) I sometimes feel (physically) that skiing will be the next thing that I have to pull back from.


post #8 of 16
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I was about to post a somewhat related question. I have been lurking here for years and regarding initiation have been working on early edge engagement - especially before the skis cross the fall line.

I took a private lesson last week specifically to work on steep fall line skiing. My instructor saw me ski and said, "you're working too hard". Basically he wanted me to use less edge early, more flat ski and steering during initiation and not really engage the edges until the skis were pointing down the fall line or even later. He said, we need speed control on steeps. Why do you want to carve the first half of the turn so well so that you are gaining speed instead of scrubbing it off. What do you think? Am using the wrong tactic - early edge - in the wrong place - steeps? In case you know the place, we were skiing D8 at Alpine Meadows and the instructor is L3, former examiner, ski school director, etc., but maybe old school? I don't know.

Greg
post #9 of 16
Great tips so far!

First it is important to realize there are many different kinds of short radius turns. A short radius turn merely means the width of the tracks is within a smaller corridor than medium turns. That being said, there are more carved short turns, more edge set short swing type turns, rounded shaped short turns, reaching short turns, and more. I would think on steeper terrain a carved short turn is much more difficult and a more round completed short turn is more appropriate for a skilled skier, where a less skilled skier may pivot to an edge set or hop into the fall line and steer to a finish.

One of my favorite drills to train the timing and trajectory of the CoM. is to practice pivot slips until you can very slowly turn your feet without stemming or stepping, into the fall line. This may sound silly but once you slow the movements down and perfect the accuracy of your trajectory, it becomes very easy and unintimidating to make the initiation very smoothly then progressively build the edge angle and engagement to shape the turn to completion.

Most skiers get into trouble by getting too high an edge angle too soon in the turns and jetting off out of balance. The key to me is to perfect the timing, intensity, and direction of the crossover to match the slope and speed so the skis can be progressively steered around the arc. Nailing this task gives the skier the options of carving, steering or pivoting the last part of the turn because the top of the turn was begun in balance and with the feet under the hips and perpendicular to the slope.
post #10 of 16
You need to watch this video very well done and the linked turns in the second half are killer! This is how you want to ski! I was trying to get right over tonight like this guy and was very close. Well done instrutional video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzIkIQa3e0
post #11 of 16
whipper,

I don't see what this video has to do with db9's question. Be very carefull about dropping the hip too far inside.

RW
post #12 of 16
Great additions guys. Cross over/cross through/cross under, all have a time and place where they would be a good option. The original question was about two, so my advice was an exercise that would help him feel those different release maneuvers. An additional question involved steep slush. My feeling is we do not want to be pivoting the skis in snow that heavy, nor do we "need" to bounce out of the snow. They are certainly options but why not just move through the snow doing a blended short to medium turn with a little bit more momentum to power through it. Which in my world means following the tips a little more and not scrubbing off so much speed that we are doing a first turn again and again.
post #13 of 16
Thread Starter 
Just...

I don't follow..

" Cross over/cross through/cross under"

could you elaborate please?


Thanks for your time..
post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by db9 View Post
Kneale..
Yes.. Yes.. tell me more...
This is something that I have been stuggling with for years.. the concept of what changes in technique with the change in condition/terrain.
The basic change that I make in going from dynamic turns (hip width stance) to powder (platform stance) to bumps/steep (more of the platform type stance) but I have never had a real outline of what changes in what condition - could you elaborate? I know it could be volumes of experience but I'd really want to know what to learn and experience - and at my age (I'm 52 but the body is something more than that ) I sometimes feel (physically) that skiing will be the next thing that I have to pull back from.


As Bud says, the steep groomed is not the place to use a RR track type carved turn unless you're physically trained to handle World Cup racer speeds and forces. A smeared turn sheds speed, is efficient and doesn't require a high degree of force that's fatiguing.

It will also allow you to make round turns in bumps.

However, in the heavy snow or deep powder, I like to think of Weems's suggestion that your skis get banked up and form a platform to ski against. Here the snow itself will be slowing you down.

Anyway, there are many other approaches and you should be familiar with alternatives if you wish to be a well-rounded skier.

Why do you think ski life diminishes with age? I'm 69 and skiing more (and learning more about improving my skiing) than ever before.
post #15 of 16
Thread Starter 
Kneale,

"Anyway, there are many other approaches and you should be familiar with alternatives if you wish to be a well-rounded skier."

Suggested reading - video?
(and lessons I had a powder lesson 2 years ago in Whistler - the stars aligned and there was this open bowel of cut up stuff - I was part of a group with a level 4 - what a blast. Take it when I can... )

"Why do you think ski life diminishes with age? I'm 69 and skiing more (and learning more about improving my skiing) than ever before."

A misplaced comment out of frustration really.. there are some days when walking is a problem
post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
whipper,

I don't see what this video has to do with db9's question. Be very carefull about dropping the hip too far inside.

RW
OOps I sure love carving this way though. I should have read the thread more carfuly. you guys are sure technical.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching