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I've Got to Ask - Page 4

post #91 of 115
Quote:
What I *seldom* see (almost never, actually) is someone making crisp, clean, *fast*, short-radius carved turns on steep, hard snow. Leaving tracks behind that show no skidding or braking.
Quote:
Personally, I believe this kind of turn is technically the most difficult turn there is on skis. I base that belief partly on my own experience (I can't consistently make that turn and it drives me crazy) and partly on the fact that I almost never see anyone else making that kind of clean, fast, short-radius carved turn.
You and me both Bob. That turn has been my nemesis for the last two years. Finally at the end of this season I worked a bit with Mike Brogan on going through neutral and am finally able to do it about 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time the outside arc is clean but the inside arc is diverged a bit. You are right, its the hardest turn to do consistently. I see so many people who think that this is the turn that they are doing but sadly, it is not. What they are doing is straining the ACL's to hang onto a turn on short carvers. Their turns are not well finished and if they are, there is a short traverse for them to go through neutral. Part of their turn is in park and ride mode even though it is fairly short. When shown the difference in turns these same skiers still cannot comprehend the difference. I myself had to get to a very high level of understanding before I knew there was a difference.

The first person to try to correct my difficiencies and get this into my head was Bob Barnes the day I first skied with him. It took me a while longer to really grasp what was missing. I only know a couple of skiers personally who can perform this turn and they are all on this forum except the D team members I know. At our own little hill I have only known two skiers to do this turn and the are both now at DV.

Guess I ain't no expert yet.
post #92 of 115
What Pierre said. I am just starting to leave clean carves but the snow has to be soft and not very steep. With practice and lessons,this year I will try to improve.
post #93 of 115
The real name for the turn Bob is describing is a "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turn". Even the D team somtimes struggle with it.

[ August 26, 2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #94 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
The real name for the turn Bob is describing is a "Clean Carved Round Reaching Short Turn". Even the D team somtimes struggle with it.
Any turn that involves "reaching" is not good sking. And if what you actually mean by "reaching" takes more than eight letters to describe accurately, then it's not good terminology, or nomenclature, or writing, or communication, or whatever you want to call it. And isn't communication supposed to be a hallmark of teaching?
post #95 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob.Peters:
What I *seldom* see (almost never, actually) is someone making crisp, clean, *fast*, short-radius carved turns on steep, hard snow. Leaving tracks behind that show no skidding or braking. Turns that anyone could watch and say "THAT is skiing!".
No, THIS is skiing -- "All day long at Snowbird or Jackson, I can watch great skiers blasting through crud, flying through trees, and launching unbelievably crazy cliffs and sticking the landings."
post #96 of 115
UGLI, I've got to ask,

WHY is "reaching" improper ("or whatever you want to call it")?

thank you in advance for your clear and informed response.

[ August 26, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #97 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by BakerBoy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bob.Peters:
What I *seldom* see (almost never, actually) is someone making crisp, clean, *fast*, short-radius carved turns on steep, hard snow. Leaving tracks behind that show no skidding or braking. Turns that anyone could watch and say "THAT is skiing!".
No, THIS is skiing -- "All day long at Snowbird or Jackson, I can watch great skiers blasting through crud, flying through trees, and launching unbelievably crazy cliffs and sticking the landings."</font>[/quote]BB:

Thanks for pointing out that little gem of unintended irony. [img]redface.gif[/img]

What I failed miserably in conveying is my belief that there are a lot of exceedingly good big-mountain skiers who might have at least one technical hole in their repertoire. It's a racer turn, for sure, but I really believe the ability to make it is an important fundamental building block for a true expert skier. And, it's a turn that I feel a very high percentage of self-instructed experts cannot make.

What I was trying (poorly) to say is that if you hang around a big mountain very long, you'll see a lot of skiers who can ski *almost* everything on the mountain - steeps, chutes, bumps, crud, etc. - like rock stars. And I'm certainly hugely impressed by people who can ski that way.

But... if you put them all behind Tommy Moe on a steep, hard, groomed run and tell them to stay *in* his tracks on short turns, I'm willing to bet 99%+ of them can't do it. If I'm right (and I really think I am), that means Tommy has a skill the rest don't, and that makes him more of an expert than most everybody else.

None of this is intended to downgrade anyone in any way. I'm just saying that there's a skill out there that most good skiers don't possess. And going back to Bob Mc's original question, I think it's a skill that is best (easiest?) learned through formal instruction.

Bob

Pierre, thanks for the backup. Maybe you and I are the only ones watching for pure carved turns. I can't even make 'em, but I love to watch 'em.
post #98 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob.Peters:
What I was trying (poorly) to say is that if you hang around a big mountain very long, you'll see a lot of skiers who can ski *almost* everything on the mountain - steeps, chutes, bumps, crud, etc. - like rock stars. And I'm certainly hugely impressed by people who can ski that way.

But... if you put them all behind Tommy Moe on a steep, hard, groomed run and tell them to stay *in* his tracks on short turns, I'm willing to bet 99%+ of them can't do it. If I'm right (and I really think I am), that means Tommy has a skill the rest don't, and that makes him more of an expert than most everybody else.

Bob, I think you know I pretty much agree with you. But I would just caution that some of those big mountain skiers can effectively make that short carved turn on hard steep runs. As you might guess our friend Rick comes to mind. I have seen him do it pretty well I think. Now he might not quite come up to Tommy's standard but I think he's one who can do it pretty well.

I must say I was surprised the first time I watched him rip up a steep groomer looking like a racer, not a free-skier. Even on Pocket Rockets (Alta Skier please take note - I worked the PR's in just for you) I've seen him effectively lay them over in this way. I can't imagine what he could do on a pair of slalom or GS race carvers.
post #99 of 115
This again?

BobPeters,
Asking anyone to stay in the tracks of a goldmetalist to prove they're good is kind of a stretch isn't it?

Moe is one of the unusual atheletes to make a cross-over between two disciplines. However, many good "big-mountain" skiers did come from a race background at one time and most probably were pretty proficient at cranking "crisp, clean, *fast*, short-radius carved turns on steep, hard snow" tho maybe not quite at Moes level. Because they chose to focus on a different path doesn't nullify their ability. Although I haven't seen many instructors able to turn like that, it's pretty common for anyone who's putin their time in junior racing. The question tho was, do you have to have formal instruction to become a great skier... or great at anything for that matter?

I think that the mindset that we all have to depend on someone else for us to progress at anything is unhealthy and leaves little room for inovation, personal style, and that wonderful sense of adventure. BobMc is right that FUN is a big part of the game, because those that have it can find the drive within themselves to learn and progress in any activity. However, those who are unable to enjoy the sport enough on their own often will have to seek a support group to help push them up the rungs.

Why does one way have to be superior to another?
post #100 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by Cheap seats:
This again?

BobPeters,
Asking anyone to stay in the tracks of a goldmetalist to prove they're good is kind of a stretch isn't it?

Why does one way have to be superior to another?
Cheap seats:

You're absolutely right. It wasn't a realistic comparison.

I got hung up on a very literal interpretation of a single piece of the original question instead of looking at the question as a whole. I missed the forest because I was focused on the trees.

What counts is that every skier should continue to progress at a rate they're happy with. If they're having fun and skiing the stuff they want, they're as "expert" as they need to be.

Good point. Thanks for reeling me in.

Bob
post #101 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by BobMc:
Wearthefoxhat, feaking limey
I'm not a limey! I'm from Ireland!

Remember most of your nation claims to have Irish ancestry. I am your father, Luke...

S
post #102 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by Wear the fox hat:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobMc:
Wearthefoxhat, feaking limey
I'm not a limey! I'm from Ireland!

Remember most of your nation claims to have Irish ancestry. I am your father, Luke...

S
</font>[/quote]You're not my father. D!ckhead.

And you should be complimented that he thinks you're a Limey, unfortunately he now has to be shot in many different ways for his ruthless neglect of the facts.
post #103 of 115
Ah yes, we are legends in our own minds.

I suppose that when we are satisfied with our skiing to the point that we feel comfortable skiing anything and everything, anywhere, then we may think of ourselves, or others may think of us as experts, but what exists in our own minds, of what we really perceive ourselves to be, is what we are.

When we no longer feel the need to learn new ideas or keep fine tuned as we age, we can hang it up and become old.

Maybe expert is just a word and not really attainable except for those who have ego's to match. I think saying level 9 is as good as it gets and the word expert should be erased. Maybe replace it with the word, "Excellent"
post #104 of 115
Thread Starter 
Well now that the dust has settled and most of my questions have been answered, I'd like to thank everyone for their helpful input. Except for Ryan, his stretchpants really piss me off, Jamesdeluxe, the bone breaking phenom, Altaskier, he just pisses me off in general, Wearthefoxhat, feaking limey, Teledave, idiot. These dimwits have no ability to see the fence for the trees.

BobMc
post #105 of 115
That's an interesting idea.
post #106 of 115
Wouldn't it would be interesting to hear the variety of definitions of 'Expert'?
I believe using an instructor/trainer in pursuit of excellence is less apt to be 'hype'if the instructor/trainer centers their teaching/coaching on your definition of 'Expert'.
The instructor/trainer who spends all their energy trying to convince everyone that theirs is the one and only technique/beliefs.... is selling their own hype!
post #107 of 115
momski,

Welcome to epicski!

Kinda surprised to see you here after all this time.

[ September 14, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #108 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by momski:
The instructor/trainer who spends all their energy trying to convince everyone that theirs is the one and only technique/beliefs.... is selling their own hype!
Do you have a man in your life? We have much in common.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #109 of 115
Great question and some very interesting responses! Bob I would ask you a question? What do you consider formal instruction? You ski with freinds and they offer advice and push your envelope a little, you have good visual images to look at. Formal teaching of advanced skiers is just what you described in one of your posts. I think in order to become and "expert" You need assistance from outside. Then it becomes a choice of what outside assistance is most helpfull? Your buddy who ski's all right or someone that has studied and experienced in setting you up for success. Knows when and what to tell you that will help. Also knows when to shut up and let the mountain or snow condition teach you. Helps show you the most effective tactics and takes you to the best terrain. I think a coach is the best option for all of this and will assit you much more than the buddy who maybe good but has no idea how to help you get good.

I have golfed for about 10 years off and on the last 3 years at least ounce a week, yet I stayed about a 20 handicap. This year I took just a few lessons, we worked on basic stance, and swing plane now we just go out and play some holes nothing real formal he gives me tips on setup, tactics and I get to watch his swing. In about 3 months time I am down to a 12 handicap and just broke 80!

Point is I think formal coaching from the right person can make a huge difference. If you have not tried it then I would give it a chance before you dismiss that you are good without coaching, just think how good you could really be take a lesson from a proffesional Bob and maybe you could even better than 99% of all skier's! (just a joke!)
post #110 of 115
Quote:
Wouldn't it would be interesting to hear the variety of definitions of 'Expert'?
I believe using an instructor/trainer in pursuit of excellence is less apt to be 'hype'if the instructor/trainer centers their teaching/coaching on your definition of 'Expert'.
The instructor/trainer who spends all their energy trying to convince everyone that theirs is the one and only technique/beliefs.... is selling their own hype!
Just saw this post, and before I go on, I want to welcome momski to the EpicSki forums! Momski (jm), and her counterpart (Dadski?), are two of the PSIA-Rocky Mountain division's top and favorite trainers/examiners. These guys wrote the book on the "Guest-Centered-Teaching"(tm) Model that we currently use in our training and exams. It is truly a privilege to have momski join us here at EpicSki!

Not to put any undue pressure on you, momski, but I'll let everyone know that we are eagerly awaiting your announcement that you've found time in your busy schedule to join us as a coach for the EpicSki Academy in Snowbird!

J--if you search back through the archives, you'll find that discussions attempting to define "expert" have been numerous, and often intensely heated!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #111 of 115
I'm going to reintroduce a a competency hierarchy I use in sports: Beginner-->Intermediate-->Expert-->Good.

You can become an expert on your own, but you can't get good without some coaching. You haven't got that many years in your life. Look at the great musicians, athletes, scientists, and so on. They ALL have their great teachers and role models. Like where would Clapton be without Muddy Waters and BB King?

HI MOMSKI!!!!!

How's the ol' man's new hip??
post #112 of 115
EpicSki and the ESA have just gotten better by leaps and bounds. Momski is truly one of the gifted ones!! Welcome J can't wait to ski with you again.

What an enlightening post on an old subject, well said momski!

[ September 18, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Tom Burch ]
post #113 of 115
Welcome, momski! Hope you are enjoying the repartee.
post #114 of 115
Quote:
Originally posted by weems:
I'm going to reintroduce a a competency hierarchy I use in sports: Beginner-->Intermediate-->Expert-->Good.
:

Weems, look forward to seeing you out in UT again helping us with our compentency!

momski, welcome to EpicSki....hope to see you at ESA!
post #115 of 115
Welcome Momski! I saw your significant other last spring n Loveland, but I haven't seen you in a while! (I think it was in Durango 3 years ago when you and Joey Webster were my examiners for Trainers Accred.) Always glad to have a skier such as yourself around. Hope you stick with us!

Shoot I don't even know what the original question is, so I'll quit wsting time.

Spag :
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