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MA request on Pivot slip

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I don't know how far away from the requirement. Just give it a try based on the recent pivot slip thread. Any comment or advise will be much welcome.

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=d41tje3gNyo
post #2 of 22
Well...those are turns, with a lot going right! Other than the first few turns above the roll (especially your first two left turns), which began with an edgeset-pushoff (outside/uphill ski, as in a "stem christie") movement pattern, the rest show the edge release and guiding, with activity of the inside leg leading you into and through the turn. This release-and-guide initiation is what Pivot Slips are all about.

But these turns are not really Pivot Slips in the purest sense, as we might define them for an instructor certification, for example (as we have recently discussed in the thread, "Pivot Slip"). Pure Pivot Slips are actually not turns at all, as they travel directly down the fall line with no direction change, and no edge engagement.

With the movement patterns and skills you show in these turns, Carver_HK, you should be able to do Pivot Slips quite well, if you want to. For what it's worth, it looks like you have a little more difficulty releasing the edge of your left ski, to initiate a left turn. That could be due to a slight boot misalignment, but it is hard to tell in these few turns.

Best regards,
Bob
post #3 of 22
carver_hk:

Here is another version of the pivot slip animation - with additional frames - along with links to the actual video the animations were made from.

You can also follow the quote link to another thread with further discussion and opinions concerning pivot slips.

Good luck!

Chris

post #4 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I don't know how far away from the requirement. Just give it a try based on the recent pivot slip thread. Any comment or advise will be much welcome.

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=d41tje3gNyo
Lousy pivot slips, nice turns , what Bob said !
post #5 of 22
Thanks for digging up that old video clip, CGeib! The actual video shows the pacing ("DIRT"--Duration, Intensity, Rate, Timing) and smoothness of Ric's movements much better than the little animation I posted in the other thread.

Whatever happened to "Ganjala"--isn't that him in the background, at the start of the clip?



Best regards,
Bob
post #6 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
Whatever happened to "Ganjala"--isn't that him in the background, at the start of the clip?
He went out to get some snacks. Never saw him again.
post #7 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks all for the expert comment and advises.

Forgive my ignorance, I really have no idea what pivot slip looks like in real until I see the vid linked by cgeib. Of course I will be happy to learn the drill until my vid looks somewhat like an authentic pivot slip. I will have a 8-skiing days ski trip. Let's hope I could work out something better.

btw. I was told the drill I performed in the follow vid looks like a pivot slip. Actually that's what led me to come to know pivot slip. May I ask how close is it to pivot slip?

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=bJE8nGyqNts

About the alignment issue. Yes, I have alignment issue and also a big boot(needs 2 socks) issue at the same time. Unfortunately I can't get it fixed in Hong Kong. My temporary fix is:

1. using a custom footbed from pedorthic
2. adjusted the boot cuff so that my legs are center with the custom footbed on.

What else can I do?

Thanks in advance for any input.
post #8 of 22
My legs get tired just watching that (ala Ott's wedeln)! Hard to believe how long ago that video was shot (ESA/ Brighton, 2003)

Ganjala is doing great! I had the opportunity to see him quite a bit on my various trips to New Orleans. He had a kid about a year ago, and he and the family are all good!
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
btw. I was told the drill I performed in the follow vid looks like a pivot slip. Actually that's what led me to come to know pivot slip. May I ask how close is it to pivot slip?
Not even close... you are travelling in the direction of your edges. Nice turn , great camera angle .
post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Not even close... you are travelling in the direction of your edges. Nice turn , great camera angle .
Now both are far from pivot slip. For sure I will take future pivot slip video from this camera angle.
post #11 of 22
Carver--your second clip is a little closer, but still a long ways from a real pivot slip. What is good about it is that it begins with an edge release, and the tips do pivot down the hill.

But there are several significant differences between what you did in that turn, and a pivot slip.

First, the pivoting comes from your upper body, through that strong blocking pole plant that pushes back on your arm and twists your whole body around like a wrench twists a nut. There is also a bit of what we call "counter-rotation" that finishes the pivot, beginning where your left arm moves out and back, just after your skis reach the fall line (point straight downhill).

Note that your pelvis rotates with your skis, resulting in your hips remaining "square" (facing the same direction as the skis point) and your ski tips remaining even (no tip lead). In Pivot Slips, the legs rotate in the hip sockets beneath a stable pelvis, resulting in the hips and upper body remaining "countered" to the direction of the skis, and causing a substantial tip lead of the uphill ski.

This "independent leg rotation" of real Pivot Slips does not involve the upper body, either to provide torque to twist the skis, or to counteract the torque and twisting of the skis. The action and reaction all take place in the legs, each braced by the pelvis, which in turn is stabilized by the other leg.

The pivot points of Pivot Slips should be directly under each foot, but your pivot point is nearer the tips of your skis, causing your tails to wash out as they pivot about that pivot point.

And, of course, Pivot Slips involve continuous slipping, with no edge set, and no turn. Your second video shows edge engagement beginning somewhere around the fall line, and a complete edge set at the end of the turn, actually causing a little traverse across the hill before you came to a stop.

Again, that critical edge release, which is a defining principle of Pivot Slips, shows in your turn. Other than that, you've shown another turn, not a Pivot Slip.

Best regards,
Bob
post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks Bob. Its a great analysis. Definitely helped me to see what's going on at the very fundamental level. Yes, the second vid is not targeted as a pivot slip. I just post it up to see the similarity & differences as seen by experts like yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
Carver--your second clip is a little closer, but still a long ways from a real pivot slip. What is good about it is that it begins with an edge release, and the tips do pivot down the hill.

But there are several significant differences between what you did in that turn, and a pivot slip.

First, the pivoting comes from your upper body, through that strong blocking pole plant that pushes back on your arm and twists your whole body around like a wrench twists a nut. There is also a bit of what we call "counter-rotation" that finishes the pivot, beginning where your left arm moves out and back, just after your skis reach the fall line (point straight downhill).

Note that your pelvis rotates with your skis, resulting in your hips remaining "square" (facing the same direction as the skis point) and your ski tips remaining even (no tip lead). In Pivot Slips, the legs rotate in the hip sockets beneath a stable pelvis, resulting in the hips and upper body remaining "countered" to the direction of the skis, and causing a substantial tip lead of the uphill ski.

This "independent leg rotation" of real Pivot Slips does not involve the upper body, either to provide torque to twist the skis, or to counteract the torque and twisting of the skis. The action and reaction all take place in the legs, each braced by the pelvis, which in turn is stabilized by the other leg.

The pivot points of Pivot Slips should be directly under each foot, but your pivot point is nearer the tips of your skis, causing your tails to wash out as they pivot about that pivot point.

And, of course, Pivot Slips involve continuous slipping, with no edge set, and no turn. Your second video shows edge engagement beginning somewhere around the fall line, and a complete edge set at the end of the turn, actually causing a little traverse across the hill before you came to a stop.

Again, that critical edge release, which is a defining principle of Pivot Slips, shows in your turn. Other than that, you've shown another turn, not a Pivot Slip.

Best regards,
Bob
post #13 of 22
Thread Starter 

Update

It doesn't looks like a success to me. But that's what I got so far this trip. Movements performed in sequence:

1. release directly to slip downhill
2. when feeling slipping directly downhill pull back legs to start sliding with ski tips turning downhill
3. rotate both legs independently about each femurs to effect turning the skis
4. set edge to kill momentum when its about across the falline.

Unfortunately I see a bit of upmove after release. I don't know where it come from. Thanks in advance for any advise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrIvzU7_6Fk
post #14 of 22
Not so bad. However, try not to stop your fall line movement as your skis come perpendicular to the fall line. Keep constantly moving down the hill turning your skis from side to side.
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Unfortunately I see a bit of upmove after release. I don't know where it come from. Thanks in advance for any advise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrIvzU7_6Fk
Ahhh--now that's we're looking for. Now it does look like you are trying to do Pivot Slips, Carver_HK. And that clip reveals much!

In this sequence, you did a good job keeping your torso, shoulders, and upper body facing the fall line, and your legs did rotate in your hip sockets, for the most part.

HOWEVER...what you did here is the platform-pushoff movement pattern, not the edge-release and guide that are the critical essence of Pivot Slips. This clip shows exactly why I have so adamantly recommended not setting your edges when trying to do Pivot Slips! Some of the "surface characteristics" of Pivot Slips show here, but the fundamental principles of these movements are the polar opposite of Pivot Slips. Put another way, as Squatty might say, ... "That ain't it!"

Each of these pivots begins from a low stance with the edges engaged. As you rise from that "platform," you rotate your pelvis into the pivot, twisting your uphill tail uphill ("stemming") first, followed by your downhill tail, also twisting uphill. Your skis pivot about a point just behind the tips--well forward of the desired axis right under your foot--which causes your feet to move left and right, rather than slipping directly down the fall line.

What you demonstrate here is very commn for people trying to do Pivot Slips. Transforming it to the movements of the true, offensive Pivot Slip will require changes of the most fundamental nature. The very essence of how you turn must change! It will take some work and real focus. It won't be easy, or quick, but the results will be worth it!

For starters, you MUST eliminate the edge set. At the very least, as I mentioned earlier, flatten your skis until they release and hold the sideslip without moving anything while you count to three (or more!)--THEN pivot. Slip as fast as you can, and then begin the pivot by slipping the tips downhill even faster. Think of starting the pivot by pulling your downhill tip (inside ski of the pivot) into the pivot, making sure you do NOT twist your uphill tail up the hill first (as you show in this clip). Nothing should go uphill. NOTHING!

You might play with what freestylers call "tail buttering," to get a feel for the pivoting action and pivot point, and to break the mold of the pushoff/tail push pattern. To do this, from a sideslip, lean back--way back!--pulling your tips right off the snow. Then pivot your tips down the hill. This is an exaggerated version of what the pivot should feel like in a real Pivot Slip.

Have fun playing with this, Carver. There's a whole new world of movements, sensations, and capabilities awaiting you.

Best regards,
Bob
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks Bob for the great analysis and the advise on how to do it right. I believe I mistaken the 'start moving' as release. It's great to see the difference. Yes, I can see the difficulties in totally released and slipping directly downhill without falling. Fortunately I still have one more day to work on real snow to try out what it feels like before returning to the indoor ski dome.
post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 

I set my focus on eliminating the up-move, yet forgot to keep my body facing the falline. So I m not sure how difficult is keeping the body facing the falline and what special technique or skill have to be employed. Any advise on the update will be much appreciated.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QFKElyQEhBc

 

Is it possible to give a list of requirements of the PS in order of importance so that I can try to judge by myself how far away is it? Thanks in advance.

 

post #18 of 22

Wow! Now that is a LOT better! You are now showing the mechanics of a real Pivot Slip! Now it's just a matter of refining what are truly the correct movement patterns. As you continue to practice, they will get better, of course.

 

As a hint to the upper body thing, note that as your legs rotate in your hip sockets, a strong lead of the uphill ski develops--easily seen in the sideslip phase. That's good! But notice that it's missing in the first frames, when you start. At the beginning, your pelvis was square with your skis, and your upper body stacked up the same above it. Next time, either start from a straight run and pivot your legs and skis out of that to a sideslip, or start from a sideslip, but make sure your pelvis faces downhill as much as possible--with the uphill ski naturally ahead. Be sure to maintain that alignment throughout each sideslip.

 

Nice work, Carver_hk--way to keep at it!

 

For more information on Pivot Slips (and a whole lot more), as we define them in the Rocky Mountain region of the US, download the following document, from the PSIA-RM website: http://www.psia-rm.org/ed_materials/Alpine/Certification%20Clinic%20Outlines/PSIA-RM%20Alpine%20Skiing%20Maneuvers%202006-07.pdf .Sideslips and Pivot Slips begin on page 23 of the document (27th page in Adobe Reader). You'll also find brief highlights in the "Pocket Guide" section at the end of the document.

 

Thanks for playing, Carver_hk. Keep practicing! The next step is to integrate what this maneuver teaches you--the edge release and guiding to start the turn, and the "neutral" stance necessary to accomplish it--seamlessly into your skiing. Have fun!

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #19 of 22
Thread Starter 

Thanks Bob.  I glad that I look into PS. Even at the moment when there are defects I already have some feeling for its use in skiing.  I feel more time at neutral and a cleaner release even when carving. This extra more time allowed me to pull back my legs at exactly the right direction (along the new edge) to adjust fore/aft balance. Secondly I also find it teaches me some understand of pivoting, which I don't have much understanding at all before working on PS. Yes, I ll certain go ahead to get a better PS.

post #20 of 22

You're welcome!

 

So who says you can't learn skiing in an online lesson? If I may say so, this thread has demonstrated just how effective it can be. As in any lesson, it requires collaboration of student and instructor. The opportunity to receive feedback based on your video clips, and then go out and try it again, is a critical part of the success.

 

Thank you again for playing, Carver_hk! You did your part admirably. I hope we can do more of this sort of thing. It's "in the cards" for the new EpicSki, to provide a formal opportunity to work one-on-one with top coaches--a sort of online correspondence course in skiing!

 

Best regards,

Bob

post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post

You're welcome!

 

So who says you can't learn skiing in an online lesson? If I may say so, this thread has demonstrated just how effective it can be. As in any lesson, it requires collaboration of student and instructor. The opportunity to receive feedback based on your video clips, and then go out and try it again, is a critical part of the success.

 

Thank you again for playing, Carver_hk! You did your part admirably. I hope we can do more of this sort of thing. It's "in the cards" for the new EpicSki, to provide a formal opportunity to work one-on-one with top coaches--a sort of online correspondence course in skiing!

 

Best regards,

Bob


 

I agree with Bob, Carver made great progress and this consept you are talking about is really much better than credited for.

post #22 of 22
Thread Starter 

Thank you both for the appraisal of my work. I too very happy to find myself able to do a preliminary version of PS and actually able to carve down black mogul run now. It's amazing to find and to be benefited from the many experts who helped me both in private message and openly in the forum. Many thanks to those who offered help in private too.

 

Bob - thanks for offering your help. I certainly will be happy to learn more. In the mean time I ll try to perfect my PS.

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