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Early pressure

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
What's a good drill to get early pressure on the outside ski?
post #2 of 28
Actively put more pressure on it by extending that leg and rolling the ankle inward.
post #3 of 28
Also extending your center laterally across your skis into the turn will do the same thing.------Wigs
post #4 of 28
It depends on whatever might be preventing you from getting "early pressure." If all is going well technically, the solution to "earlier pressure" is simple--more speed, tighter radius, a gentler pitch (less gravitational force pulling you into the turn early on), or all three.

In my opinion, though, "early pressure" is a current trend and instructional fad that is overrated and often detrimental. The attempt to achieve "early pressure" often causes more problems than it solves--including the problem of delaying the clean carve that produces the g-forces that we know as "pressure"!

As my friend Bill Sloatman said long ago, "we get pressure on skis not by pushing on them, but by letting them push on us." Pressure involves patience. Let it happen--don't force it. Pressure comes at us, and the "earliest" pressure will come when we let it, and do nothing that would delay it. As I mentioned, more speed, less pitch, or a tighter radius turn will bring pressure "earlier." But mis-timed or mis-directed flexing and extending movements (ankles, knees, hips, arms) are usually the culprit in delaying--or needlessly rushing--"pressure." Identifying and correcting any such errors is the technical solution you are asking for.

Yes, we have the ability to "push" on our skis and add pressure--momentarily. We can hasten the pressure phase of a turn very slightly by extending the legs into the turn. But do it a moment too early or a tad too quickly, and the pressure will vanish, causing the skis to stop carving, and requiring you to pivot your skis to get them back underneath you. That's early--but useless--pressure!

The complement to the "pressure phase" of a turn is the "float phase." As we have discussed in other threads recently, both phases are equally important. The "unweighted" float phase can range from virtually zero (pressure and carving from start to finish, as in "railroad tracks") to as late as the fall line, and even beyond--especially in very steep, narrow terrain, or in very tight turns on a slalom course. Largely, it is not our choice!

Best regards,
Bob
post #5 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
It depends on whatever might be preventing you from getting "early pressure."
Bob
That's exactly why I suggested some extention, Bob. In my mind I envisioned someone finishing a turn flexed and entering the new turn staying that low, instead of extending into the new turn. So maybe I needed to qualify that thought a bit more. Sorry.

IMO If you don't extend the outside leg enough to maintain contact with the snow, there can be no engagement of the new edge if it's off the snow. Especially if like Wigs suggested you allow the body to move inside the turn. That shouldn't imply loading it so much that it inhibits the new turn. Only that the leg needs to extend to some extent to maintain that contact with just enough pressure to gain some edge purchase. It's much harder to establish edge purchase with the correct edge angle (in the second half of the turn) when the pressure is already starting to build.
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey View Post
What's a good drill to get early pressure on the outside ski?
My first reaction to this question was "By doing drills that actively promote guiding the inside ski to compliment the actions of the outside ski." Then, I realized that Bob Barnes is correct on the grand scale and so is Wigs and JASP if you look at a smaller piece of the puzzle.

I think the idea of early pressue is a bit misguided as Bob suggests. In general, pressure goes where it is most needed to maintain balance and the forces of the turn as long as both skis are guided to match one another's actions and you don't do anything stupid with the upper body to upset things.
post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your thoughtful answers. They've given me lots to think about and experiment with in my skiing.
post #8 of 28
casey,

Welcome to Epic!

Not a drill, but engaging the skis early in the turn is made possible by being in good balance as you enter the transition. Being in good balance is when you are balanced over both skis the appropriate amount for the terrain, snow, pitch, speed and turn shape (type).

It is much easier to get on easier terrain than steep terrain. I suggest you take a lesson from a qualified instructor b/c any drill without concurrent coaching can be a waist of time.

RW
post #9 of 28
The transition is the only point we always always have equal weight on both skis for an instant (every turn, setting aside deep snow for now). To get weight on the outside ski, lighten the inside ski, and do that sooner after the transition if that's what is needed for the particular turn. A wide stance makes individual ski pressure control difficult. Putting more pressure on the outside ski by extending the leg more than needed just to maintain contact with the snow may cause the edge to lose grip. Inverting (rolling the ankle to the inside) is self limiting and causes A-framing...better to get the body farther inside the turn.
post #10 of 28
Bob Huh?
"attempting to get early pressure causes many problems."
OP wants to "get" not create early pressure.

A clean carve will require a scenario that puts the skier on the new outside ski sooner. JASP has it right, we need the new outside leg to lengthen as the stance is re-distributed to the new outside ski. Yes, radius, speed, terrain pitch are all involved as we move across the skis or as the skis move under us.

OP is interested in what we all are, going left after he was going right. Although he called it pressure, he did not say that he wanted to put pressure on it, he may be happy with the ski pushing him as well.

Here is a drill for you Casey. Garlands. Ski arcoss the hill, starting a turn by moving the body from the uphill side of the skis to the downhill side. As the body crosses over and the edge change begins, start to arc down the hill toward the fall line. Instead of completing the turn, move the body back to the uphill to flatten the skis again into the traverse. Repeat as long as you have space and traffic controlled.

Greg
post #11 of 28
Here is a drill I believe will help with what you are asking.


Traverse the hill on your uphill ski only. downhill ski off the snow. Uphill ski is rolled to little toe side as you traverse just as if you were traversing on both skis.

When you decide you want to turn roll the uphill ski immediately to the big toe edge and cleanly ride this ski only around an arc through the fall line and back to a traverse across the hill and then immediately switch 100% to new uphill ski little toe side edge downhill ski off the snow and traverse again on uphill ski and repeat.

Practice until you can do this manuever smoothly and in balance with no skidding.

Drill is currently used by race team here.
post #12 of 28
Nice drill Aman,
Work that one til the cows come home. Vary the rate of the edge change, slow, medium, fast. Vary the slope. Vary the snow, firm, soft, bumpy, fluffy...
I never met no skier that can't get some stance AND edge change mojo form this.
Greg
post #13 of 28
That works well as long a we don't start thinking we should be extending uphill (moving the hips uphill to get them over the new outside ski) as a result. It's a move we need in our repetoire but as with most moves it can be overused.
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by GR8TRN View Post
Nice drill Aman,
Work that one til the cows come home. Vary the rate of the edge change, slow, medium, fast. Vary the slope. Vary the snow, firm, soft, bumpy, fluffy...
I never met no skier that can't get some stance AND edge change mojo form this.
Greg
Thanks! It's a good-un!
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
That works well as long a we don't start thinking we should be extending uphill (moving the hips uphill to get them over the new outside ski) as a result. It's a move we need in our repetoire but as with most moves it can be overused.
there is no new outside ski. you are already on it? How can you turn down the hill on your uphill ski with your hips moivng uphill?
post #16 of 28
It's easy to talk about early pressure and patience, but I think sometimes it's good to show what you are waiting for. You asked for a drill, you can try a stem-step. You finish the turn standing in balance on your outside ski. Pick up the inside ski (new outside ski) and move it up the hill. Place it down on it's edge in a wedgy position. Now stand on it and feel the tip draw you into the new turn. That's what you are waiting to feel. Try a progression of smaller and smaller steps until you are just "extending the leg" as JASP described.
post #17 of 28
a man, please let me explain...
Stepping onto the uphill ski is a great way to experience 100% weight and pressure on the outside ski. Is it something we want to do with every turn? Probably not. Why? Well, when we are balancing on both skis our CoM is somewhere between the two skis and there is more pressure on the downhill ski. Picking either ski up at that point requires us to move our CoM into alignment over the ski we are standing upon. If that is your uphill ski, then it follows that we would move the CoM uphill. For the sake of the drill we can ignore that as long as we make note that we are getting into that position for the drill. Like Bob pointed out we can allow the pressure and weight to build up naturally, or we can actively do something to add pressure to that outside ski. Shifting our CoM over that ski being just one example of actively doing something to add pressure to that ski. Knowing how to do so is a good thing but we simply do not need to move our balance over the uphill ski if both skis are on the snow. Which IMO suggests it is not something we want to make a default release movement.
post #18 of 28
The
D.uration
I.ntensity
R.ate
T.iming
of the extension in relation to the edge change is key for me.

I don't think consciously as much about the earliness of my weight transfer as much as I focus on the direction of my extension.

FWIW
post #19 of 28
JASP, A-Man,,, may I?

A-Man, that's a great drill. You mentioned a traverse on the uphiill ski being part of it. What JASP is saying is that to traverse on the uphill ski you need to establish balance on that ski, otherwise it just rolls over to it's downhill edge when it's pressured. In linking two of these turns,,, if a a traverse is included,,, then the CM needs to move uphill and balance over the uphill ski to make it happen.

An alternative would be an ILE move, where only pressure is moved to the uphill ski, not balance. The ski then rolls over to it's downhill edge while the CM moves downhill,,, no uphill CM move happens,,, no traverse happens,,, just clean arc to arc.

The drill can be done either way, and it's important skill building to learn to do both well.
post #20 of 28
every drill has potential pitfalls. we have to see what happens on the hill. this is part of coaching-don't allow the pitfalls.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Here is a drill I believe will help with what you are asking.


Traverse the hill on your uphill ski only. downhill ski off the snow. Uphill ski is rolled to little toe side as you traverse just as if you were traversing on both skis.

When you decide you want to turn roll the uphill ski immediately to the big toe edge and cleanly ride this ski only around an arc through the fall line and back to a traverse across the hill and then immediately switch 100% to new uphill ski little toe side edge downhill ski off the snow and traverse again on uphill ski and repeat.

Practice until you can do this manuever smoothly and in balance with no skidding.

Drill is currently used by race team here.
I was forced to do that on 205 cm skis by a coach in 1976. It was damn near impossible to do without a step or two, but it really helped teach us.

Fast forward 20 years. I got some skis with " radical side cut" (26 metres) and could finally do the drill. The coache's daughter made the US ski team.
post #22 of 28
So what about turning on the new inside ski while keeping the new outside ski completely off the snow? In my world it is another great activity that allows us to explore the entire range of pressure and balancing options.
post #23 of 28
You have to be moving across the hill to exert centrifugal pressure on the ski or have the ski exert centripetal pressure on you when the ski is pointing and moving across the hill. If you are going straight down the fall line with the skis going back and forth, it won't happen because only the ski will have the ability to exert any centrifugal pressure on the snow. A common mistake is to extend hard to get that pressure; doing so only leads to a stem turn. Put another way the pressure will be there when it's needed due to the motion. If you want to feel it, make it needed and wait a touch longer before transitioning and let the turn turn you a little more so your cm is actually diverting a bit more from its path before releasing the old turn.
post #24 of 28
Ghost,

Actually, there are drills that demand early edge pressure with the body moving straight down the fall-line. Take a look at Max's BPST video for eg.
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
JASP, A-Man,,, may I?

A-Man, that's a great drill. You mentioned a traverse on the uphiill ski being part of it. What JASP is saying is that to traverse on the uphill ski you need to establish balance on that ski, otherwise it just rolls over to it's downhill edge when it's pressured. In linking two of these turns,,, if a a traverse is included,,, then the CM needs to move uphill and balance over the uphill ski to make it happen.

An alternative would be an ILE move, where only pressure is moved to the uphill ski, not balance. The ski then rolls over to it's downhill edge while the CM moves downhill,,, no uphill CM move happens,,, no traverse happens,,, just clean arc to arc.

The drill can be done either way, and it's important skill building to learn to do both well.
Rick, thanks. i got that. my inital reaction was , Yes, so what. The traverse part was not the important aspect and of course you have to do what is necessary to balnce on the uphil edge of the uphill ski and this is necessary to carry out the drill The important aspect is getting the feeling of rolling onto the big toe edge of the uphill ski with 100% of the weight on that ski "EARLY" without a step or push. When actually skiing not drilling you would have the majority of your weight on your downhill ski in the traverse.

It is possible that because this drill was really easy for me to execute (My son who is helping coach J3's was excited about it and showed it to me) that other elements that could be detrimental were not apparant to me. Actually it made me realize that this move is an integral part of many my turns. (the early engagement part not the hips uphill in the traverse)

My sons comments were, that he had wished the coaches had shown him that drill back when he was racing. they alsway said get on edge earlier in your turn, but never showd him how to do that. He felt this drill would have revolutionized his racing. (he still did pretty good) but for many racers it is the little things that pay huge didvidends.
post #26 of 28
A-Man, to your son for going into coaching after his successful racing career. For years his focus was on himself. Now he's shifted his intense quest to focusing on helping others. Very cool.

As I look back, so many of my racers went into coaching after they retired, and are now spread across the country, from GMVS to Hailey. Just something about the love of the sport, and the desire to give back and spread the wealth that draws to the call. And those who come out of a quality race program go into the job with many years of coach training already in their pockets. Interesting too, how those who really seek for ways to best help their students learn continue to expand their own knowledge and skills in the process, as your son has discovered.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
A-Man, to your son for going into coaching after his successful racing career. For years his focus was on himself. Now he's shifted his intense quest to focusing on helping others. Very cool.

As I look back, so many of my racers went into coaching after they retired, and are now spread across the country, from GMVS to Hailey. Just something about the love of the sport, and the desire to give back and spread the wealth that draws to the call. And those who come out of a quality race program go into the job with many years of coach training already in their pockets. Interesting too, how those who really seek for ways to best help their students learn continue to expand their own knowledge and skills in the process, as your son has discovered.
Thanks for the compliment to him and encouragment. Although I am sure there is some altruistic enthusiasm in his motivation to coach and his love of just being around the "Race Scene" and up on the hill, it maybe the $1,000 free Season's Pass and a 100 bones a day that really got his attention!!!
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
JASP, A-Man,,, may I?

A-Man, that's a great drill. You mentioned a traverse on the uphiill ski being part of it. What JASP is saying is that to traverse on the uphill ski you need to establish balance on that ski, otherwise it just rolls over to it's downhill edge when it's pressured. In linking two of these turns,,, if a a traverse is included,,, then the CM needs to move uphill and balance over the uphill ski to make it happen.

An alternative would be an ILE move, where only pressure is moved to the uphill ski, not balance. The ski then rolls over to it's downhill edge while the CM moves downhill,,, no uphill CM move happens,,, no traverse happens,,, just clean arc to arc.

The drill can be done either way, and it's important skill building to learn to do both well.
One more thought!

that sounds like a great drill too.

One advantage to the traverse and non-arc to arc, is the speed at which the drill I suggested was done. it is not fast.



As you know skiing a nice round carved turn slowed way way down is extrememly difficult for most learning skiers. A certain amount of speed becomes a crutch. many skiers have a very difficult time balancing on their big toe edge in a long slow arc.

I often also see folks who have skied for a long time not able to skate worth a damn. Nice long slow skate steps, pushing off and riding each edge for a bit of an extended period.
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