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post #61 of 106
Quote:
Is it because biochemistry isn't the only issue?... IMHO, the issue is so complex we can't resolve it here...Not many people are willing to bare their emotional souls and fully, honestly evaluate their psyches. That's why this will be a question for the ages.
I'm with you here.

If I pursue something, there's a passion driving it and often I am unable to rationalize why. No worries, I do what I must. From soul searching and self discovery, its clear that most of these endeavours have led to personal growth. There are necessary goals and purposes that must be achieved. Some part of me recognizes that.

Although admittedly the consummate nerd when it comes to certain scientific issues, I am still a spiritual person by nature (or, at least, I choose to be). I have been at my worst when I think too much or become hypercritical rather than allowing my gut feelings, passions, and natural instincts to balance the intellect. The heart speaks; you destroy so much when you fail to listen.
post #62 of 106
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
The question is whether it might take similar qualities to succeed at sports as it does to succeed at starting your own business.
[/quote]

OK - just to be fussy or something
1) What do you define 'succeed' at sports as???
Win at world level?
Perhaps National?
etc Are you prepared to accept less than a defined CONTEST?
& we could go through many levels but
What about just damn well enjoy themselves?

Where do you place my friend the >40y.o. Downs Syndrome woman who learnt to ski & skied down our beginner slope on her own at the end of a 5 day holiday(with try-ski)? Is SHE a success? I think so - so did her sister who had tears running down her face & couldn't speak. This same persons mother was told at her birth to "Put her in a home & pretend you never had her" can you imagine how her older sister feels? btw she nursed her mother & kept her from a nursing home for years?

2)Now how successful at starting a business is measured?
Many businesses fail in the early years - how long do they need to last to be successful when started? I know 1 guy who bought 3 going concerns & bankrupted them all!- But survived the first year!
post #63 of 106
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling
post #64 of 106
Thread Starter 
disski, You are asking me to define success. I think that Gonzo and Jonathan are getting close to a definition here; in a larger sense, I think that's the underlying theme of most conversations on this site. How do you/I/we define success? Are we all in the same boat regarding success, or is success whatever floats your boat?

Let's contrast Hermann Meier and Bill Johnson re success, shall we? (Or Bill Johnson before his head injury and after it.) Obviously we're talking about two completely different things. Can Bill Johnson "self-actualize" given his present capabilities?

How does success relate to fulfillment? Does there have to be recognition from others, material rewards, or other sorts of social insignia for there to be success?

I apologize for all the questions, but I have one more. What do you get when you're successful? What are the benefits?

I think we on EpicSki.com define success as authenticity, which may seem paradoxical considering that most of us use pseudonyms and provide few details on our profile pages. I think that's what Gonzo is saying about striving for excellence without hero-worship or cultish adherence to a particular guru's dictates. Authenticity is WYSIWYG. As a community, I think we tend to define success by our growth in members, but more importantly it is what we can get done together. The Academy & Gatherings are monuments to that kind of success.
post #65 of 106
Thread Starter 
Nice work, Fox.
post #66 of 106
yo, BadRat...

actually, I was just using nolo's query re the endorphin rush theory. my true feeling is in my statements that read:

Quote:
to what extent do thought and behavior patterns arise independently of our respective biochemical compositions?

Any psychiatrist who treats patients with both talk therapy (psychotherapy) and drugs (pharmacotherapy) can tell you that the drugs can remove the emotional hindrances, but they cannot change the thought patterns that are ingrained.

I would like to suggest this: Endorphin levels can incite one to take bigger risks, but is the desire for an endorphin buzz the only reason anyone seeks success in athletic endeavors? in business endeavors? As I said above, my experience is contrary.

* * * *

To think of it another way, look at the way anti-depressants are over-prescribed, and how many folks don't seem to be anything but artificially happy under their influence. Why is that? Is it because biochemistry isn't the only issue?
In truth, I'm actually raising questions and not drawing conclusions... I'm doing a little culling, but no concluding.
post #67 of 106
nolo said:

Quote:
I think we on EpicSki.com define success as authenticity, which may seem paradoxical considering that most of us use pseudonyms and provide few details on our profile pages. I think that's what Gonzo is saying about striving for excellence without hero-worship or cultish adherence to a particular guru's dictates. Authenticity is WYSIWYG.
quick disclaimer...

at the risk of being accused of hypocrisy or shadiness, I can tell you that I'm not some cypher who exists only in cyberspace. I have a name (Sean O'Neil), an address (known by those I trust), a birthday (01/13/61), a SSN (again given only via trust), a job (oboe knows this fact about me), and two very serious athletic interests (mtn biking and alpine skiing).

I don't use the pseudonym "gonzostrike" as a mask behind which I issue bold yet ultimately cowering remarks. If anyone in here has an issue with me personally, I invite him or her to e-mail me. I've talked on the phone with a few Bears, haven't yet skied with any, but will be meeting many of you in person in Jan 2003 for the Gathering.

I just wanted that to be clear. I don't want anyone to think that I revel in anonymity. I don't. :
post #68 of 106
interesting exchange here lately; just stumbled onto it. gonz, by far the most flexible view you've allowed into "you" (Sean and Gonz); i find it encouraging and interesting (in the best way). i find myself almost wanting to lose my bet with (IDENTITY WITHHELD), that you won't show in u-land. :
post #69 of 106
wait a minute, ryan... I don't know who's been posting these things under my member name, but I take no credit and no blame for them. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]

as to whether I'll show in UT, the very fact that anyone has placed a wager on that shows that many Bears have WAY TOO MUCH time on their hands -- they are talking about my no-show at Fernie? the only ones who would call me out on that would be anyone who has NO IDEA what it's like to study for a bar exam 13 years after finishing law school. :

in any case, whoever is wagering that I'll be there stands to win the bet.
post #70 of 106
Quote:
Originally posted by gonzostrike:
in any case, whoever is wagering that I'll be there stands to win the bet.
post #71 of 106
if "STANDS to..." isn't a hedge, i don't know what is. i'll keep my fortune in my pocket till i see your smiling face at the top of sugarloaf, at which time i will gladly pay my debt AND allow you the pleasure of buying me a beer at day's end.
post #72 of 106
oh cripes, did I bet you?

...must...

...repair...

...memory...

...must...

...fight...

...unnnnnnggggghhhh...
post #73 of 106
Now that big-mouth Ryan has partially spilled the beans...

If Gonzo doesn't show in SLC, I owe Mr. LA the equivalent of a ticket to Alta (which he'll probably use to buy the last two Eminem albums).
post #74 of 106
James, as one of my employer partners once told a judge,

"your reasoning is wise and paramount."

ryan, you'd best be coughing up some moolah!
post #75 of 106
Thread Starter 
Anyone want to make a wager on what date the Academy fills?

I'll guess Thanksgiving. See all those new people registering? Can't do the Academy without being a member of EpicSki.com!

(Word to the wise: a serious marketing campaign will be unleashed SOON. Please get your registration in early.)
post #76 of 106
Quote:
yo, BadRat...

actually, I was just using nolo's query re the endorphin rush theory. my true feeling is in my statements that read:...
Quote:
In truth, I'm actually raising questions and not drawing conclusions... I'm doing a little culling, but no concluding.
I know. That is why I followed with that second post last night.
These are issues that I ponder...
post #77 of 106
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
(Word to the wise: a serious marketing campaign will be unleashed SOON. Please get your registration in early.)
oh no...

"marketing"?

I suggest we hold a clinic on verbifying nouns. Putting on your boots will be called "skibooting." Putting on your gloves will be called "gloving." Going to the toilet will be called... uhhh, you know.

Please, nolo -- tell me you aren't about to turn this into a commercial enterprise. If you are, you have just lost my attendance. I want nothing to do with turning this into a money-maker. I have agreed to it because it seems fun and worthwhile, not because it can be transformed into something "profitable."

Is the ugly head of greed creeping up from over the ridgeline above SLC?
post #78 of 106
Quote:
Originally posted by gonzostrike:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by nolo:
(Word to the wise: a serious marketing campaign will be unleashed SOON. Please get your registration in early.)
Please, nolo -- tell me you aren't about to turn this into a commercial enterprise. If you are, you have just lost my attendance. I want nothing to do with turning this into a money-maker. I have agreed to it because it seems fun and worthwhile, not because it can be transformed into something "profitable."

Is the ugly head of greed creeping up from over the ridgeline above SLC?
</font>[/quote]Gonz, if I might throw in my 2 cents here. As one of many people helping to make this happen (playing a small role in my case) I think what we are trying to do here is break new ground and create something novel that can be fun and fulfilliing for all Epic Ski participants and lead the way for new approahces to skier improvement. That is and will continue to be our overriding goal.

Independent of the Academy a small group of us who met on Epic have grouped together to try and produce some novel ski events that can help lead our sport forward. Given our resources we have kind of taken on a role in organization of the Academy. In doing so we have no motivation for monetary gain or profit, although we hope the experience of doing this will be helpful in establishing our identity and ability to do future events.

I can assure you that not only has this involvement not cost anyone anything or created a profit motive, in fact it has provided a geat deal of free (and necessary) services for the Academy (planning, legal, organizational, operational, etc.) that would not have otherwise been there.

Let me assure you that the philosophy and motivations for the Epic Ski Academy remain completely focused on creating something of great value for Epic Ski members specifically and skiing in general. Our marketing efforts are aimed at getting enough people to participate to make this the successful event we think it can be. We have a good number of high level instuctors who want to participate, it would be great if each had a group of skiers to work with. Also, with larger numbers we can much better assure compatibility within groups.

Hope this answers you concerns adequately.
post #79 of 106
Thread Starter 
Marketing: informing interested buyers of the features and benefits of your product.

That's about it, Gonzo. No, this is not a money-making enterprise. It is pro bono, has a zero-based budget, and a ceiling on instructor pay. Any proceeds above and beyond expenses will be invested in the 2004 EpicSki Academy.

Think of us as event facilitators, not as rapacious, money-grubbers and you'll be closer to the mark.

This exchange begs the question: why assume the worst about people?
post #80 of 106
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
This exchange begs the question: why assume the worst about people?
If nobody else asks the hard questions, tragic human flaws can go on about their merry way and work bad influences.

I think this entire series of posts in several threads reveals a big communication problem. Perhaps effective communication has taken a back seat to getting this Gathering up and running for Jan 2003. I don't know. What I do know is that this whole thing started as an idea for Bears to gather and ski together. From that point, the idea of benefiting from you top-notch coaches' wisdom came into play.

Of course, some of us would like to see wisdom shared gratis. From the perspective of one who just wants to ski with his fellow Bears and maybe benefit from some pithy observations, I am a bit disheartened by this shift to a "business" approach. Maybe there are details about the logistics that mandate such an approach. As a lawyer, I can see the need for creating a corporation, etc. But I question the wisdom of this apparent sea-change in purpose.

I'm not a professional mtn bike coach, although if I were to draw an analogy to PSIA levels, I would believe myself capable of at least a Level II certification on mtb coaching. Also, I've never sought to make mtb coaching a career of any type. Still, I would never ever think of getting folks together to ride and share experiences, and then turn that thing into a business that lets me make some money either directly or indirectly. Said differently, my riding friends and my random encounters have benefited from my knowledge and insights many times, without so much as a request for a beer. Several of my riding friends have urged me to take it up as a sideline. But I think there's nothing greater than seeing another person get the same enjoyment from mtb riding that I derive. I don't need $$ to validate that enjoyment.

On the other hand, you folks get paid to teach skiing. Maybe I was naive in thinking you would want to attend this thing merely as a sort of public benefit to a select group (Bears), where instruction becomes a fortuitous byproduct of the gathering. To speak from a bean-counter's perspective (I'm just playing one on the internet, I'm no accountant), I thought you coaches would treat this as a "loss leader" -- impart some wisdom, and if the student is impressed, he or she engages you for some real, fee-based coaching. Guess I'm just Mr Paul E. Annuh.

Now, the whole point seems to be the $$ end of things. Why? Were there bad projections? Fear of failure?

I'd prefer to see this whole thing become more laid-back than it appears to be heading. If that makes me selfish, then so be it. I just wonder about the real need for the apparent sea-change. My sailboat continues on toward that portside mark. I'm not changing tacks until the wind definitely shifts. A puff doesn't make me switch.

Metaphorically confused,

Agent O

[ October 31, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: gonzostrike ]
post #81 of 106
Thread Starter 
Huh? Who's making money? AC's not making any money off it. Our production company isn't making any money off it.

Do you seriously think that instructors, who only work for a few short months a year at pauper's wages, are going to be able to justify taking five days off for a lark? I have to find a replacement instructor to teach my 23 students while I'm away. This isn't an easy task. I have to keep 23 people happy while I blow them off to do the Academy. Who am I going to get to do it, who will give them such a good time that they don't resent my absence?

I know you're playing devil's advocate and I should detach from the conversation, but this cuts pretty close to the bone. Maybe the road to hell really is paved with good intentions. Then again, maybe Sartre was right, and "Hell is other people."
post #82 of 106
nolo,

I'm going beyond acting as the Satanic Attorney General. I'm asking about stuff that really is an observable phenomenon from the OUTSIDE -- from the perspective of one who hasn't been privy to what you guys have put together.

Your view on the need to make more $$ as a coach has been made quite plain throughout your tenure here. I understand it as well as I'm able without having met you in person and had a real exchange with you.

You've got to realize that with rare exceptions, none of us has been advised of how you got to the overall cost figures. Si generously advised us of how he got the lift pass deal. That's the kind of information I'd like to see before this gathering becomes an "open to the public, come one come all" kind of thing. And I still don't understand the point of the novel ideas that Si referenced in the related thread.

When you want me to plunk down my $$ for coaching, you'd better tell me what I'm getting and why it's costing me what it does. And when you talk about a "marketing push" you make it sound like you're taking the Gathering to market. Frankly, I don't see the need for that -- but that's probably because I haven't been given enough information to understand why the need exists.

Remember, for me it's easy to just avoid the Gathering and stay at LT and ski with Yoda. That would cost me nothing but the sideaches I get from laughing at his endlessly funny stories and observations. And I'd be willing to wager that my skiing would improve just as much, if not more. So, please... tell us why the "marketing push" and tell us about the "novel ideas."
post #83 of 106
Thread Starter 
Remember as well that it's just as easy for me to forego the Academy and take care of my 23 students. In fact, it's a heck of a lot easier.

And just to set the record straight, I don't teach for the money. I feel sorry for anyone who does. I am not risking the ire of students who have been skiing with me for years for the money. I'm doing it to get the farts out of my clothes. Metaphorically speaking, of course. (Don't want to scare anyone away over a figure of speech!)

If I may, I'd like to relate this to a recent purchasing experience I had. I spoke on the telephone for 1.4 hours with an attorney and received a bill within four days for $375. Less than two hours for the same price as four days of instruction from one of the premier instructors in the land. That $375 is just the tip of the iceberg, of course. Still, how quickly the demand for payment! It spoke volumes about our relationship and what was foremost on my attorney's mind.

I guess how we choose to spend our money depends on how important the legal matter is to me and how important your skiing pleasure is to you.
post #84 of 106
I believe that I've already explained this subject to Gonz in private conversation and will probably discuss this further with him. However, if for any reason Gonz or anyone else feels they'd get as much or more benefit from NOT going to the Academy, well, it's a free country. But there's nowhere else you'll get the likes of Bob Barnes, nolo, weems, vail snopro and others of that caliber all at the same academy, with video, multimedia, etc and then be able to continue communicating with them - for FREE, for heaven's sake - on EpicSki all year long . . .

For anyone interested, read the brochure [print version soon to be available] and then make up your own mind.

When I first became involved in this, it became apparent that we'd let our fellow Bears down if we didn't choose to do this right. To do this right, we need to tend to business. As part of tending to business, we need to assure enough participation so that the presenters don't end up owing money and so the instructors can be utilized efficiently. That's it.

I have both faith in and hope for this project and the fantastic spirit of volunteerism that started it and is keeping it going.
post #85 of 106
Holy hijackings! Are we seeing latent aspirations in Gonzo to be a talk show host in the Donahue tradition?

Anyway, Gonzo, you are misunderstanding the entire clinic. The pro instructors are making HUGE financial sacrifices to provide this clinic to the Bears (and in fact they are making even greater financial sacrifices to be pro instructors in the first place). They are indeed doing this out of generosity to the EpicSki community, and it is very unfair to forget that.

The rest of us involved are making some effort to minimize their losses. You have no idea how much planning is being done by the instructors involved to make the on-hill experience as effective as possible for the students. The result of this effort will be a far more beneficial experience for the participants than if a bunch of skiers (even very good skiers) just met to hang out and share random tips. What is being offered here far exceeds the casual example you described, and it is not only reasonable to try to collect some payment for the instructors, it would be flat-out wrong and unjust not to.

Furthermore, comparing the advice an amateur (of any level) gives to friends when they are all out mt. biking in their leisure time is not at all comparable to that provided by those who have dedicated their career to teaching people how to ski. These professionals not only spend a great deal of time learning how to ski well, but they also study in extraordinary detail how to teach well and provide a 100% student-centered experience on the hill.

And the "Gathering" offers the exact low-key, hang out with friends experience you described.
post #86 of 106
Thread Starter 
Thank you, AC and Oboe.

Thank you, too, Gonzo, for I believe all can now see the Academy for what it is--an acorn of an idea that is being tended by those who see its potential to extend the learning and camaraderie enjoyed on the Technique & Instruction forum for ALL who want to play live.
post #87 of 106
You have no idea how much planning is being done by the instructors involved to make the on-hill experience as effective as possible for the students.

Maybe someone should explain, then. From my perspective, I have no idea what has happened.

What do I sacrifice by going there? About $750-900 out of pocket. I don't even have to pay airfare, or it could be a lot more painful economically. Although I am in the same line of work as oboe, I certainly don't make the same $$ as the overpriced guy who billed nolo. In fact, I'm lucky when I have enough money to afford the $22 lift ticket at my home hill. On top of that, my coach doesn't charge me anything, because -- well, honestly, I don't know why he doesn't. I've offered to repay him in kind, in money, in dinner/drinks... he won't have it.

Perhaps my situation is too unique. Maybe I should just shut my computer down and stop asking these hard questions.

Yeah, and maybe I should just support Dubya's desire to kill whatever or whomever threatens his family's oil industry income, too.

Neither is likely.
post #88 of 106
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
Thank you, too, Gonzo, for I believe all can now see the Academy for what it is--an acorn of an idea that is being tended by those who see its potential to extend the learning and camaraderie enjoyed on the Technique & Instruction forum for ALL who want to play live.
oh yeah. welcome to Madison Avenue.

"just trust us, we have your best interests in mind"

sounds shockingly similar to developments on the geopolitical front.

adieu.

[ October 31, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: gonzostrike ]
post #89 of 106
What is being offered here far exceeds the casual example you described, and it is not only reasonable to try to collect some payment for the instructors, it would be flat-out wrong and unjust not to.

funny, I was going to suggest that the cost be raised to cover the expenses of the STUDENTS who are not making $$ while skiing at the Gathering.

this isn't a Gathering, it's something else. I'll still be there, but until the info on the instructional clinic is fleshed out, I'll just be freeskiing.

good luck, everyone.
post #90 of 106
If I may, I'd like to relate this to a recent purchasing experience I had. I spoke on the telephone for 1.4 hours with an attorney and received a bill within four days for $375. Less than two hours for the same price as four days of instruction from one of the premier instructors in the land. That $375 is just the tip of the iceberg, of course. Still, how quickly the demand for payment! It spoke volumes about our relationship and what was foremost on my attorney's mind.

I'm sure I can recommend someone out your way who costs less and is more friendly to your situation. If you are willing to tell me the type of work you hired him for, I can suggest some people who won't bilk you AND who won't make you feel like THEIR income is more important than YOUR legal needs.

++++++++++++

I hope you don't think I dislike you or anyone involved in planning the Gathering. It's a little shocking to me that all of a sudden the character of the event has changed drastically from what it originally was. There was no original discussion of, for example,

"Let's build this into something that can be done every year for larger and larger numbers of skiers."

Honestly, given my anti-Naisbitt stance on most things, I'm surprised that my questions have offended you in any way. It's pretty clear that I'm not a futurist, and I'm not a fan of "progress." Small is good. Personal is good.

To use a ski area analogy, the Gathering seems to have gone from being Turner Mountain to emulating Deer Valley.

I don't buy oboe's idea that "it has to be run like a busines." That's ludicrous. WHY does it have to be like a business?

What I really don't understand is why everyone is so defensive, when all I'm asking is that the Planning Committee give us a little disclosure. If this thing is supposed to be "like a business," then you and everyone else who is planning it ought to understand that due diligence is a critical part of investing in ANY business.

If you guys drop the defensive posture and tell us why you need to "do marketing" and work toward unrevealed "novel ideas," you will have a lot more buy-in. Honestly.

adieu
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