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Review, "Encyclopedia of Skiing" - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Thread Starter 

You type fast and you talk fast.

Tell the forum that you were wrong. That your opinions of HH are based on emotion not facts. Until then, I can't respect you.
post #32 of 54
Thread Starter 
Man, you guys are going to keep me up all night. But I'll keep typing as long as you're here.

Rusty, you get my point. For once, someone --HH, has a system! It has to be better for skiers than the alternative.

The books and videos are about $70 bucks. When a student comes to you, they'll already have the books and videos.

You don't have to teach skiers one system. But teach a system, damn it! Teach skiers something that they can refer back to and study during the lesson, while you're showing them and talking to them. That they can take home and study. This is how they'll learn faster! <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited July 08, 2001).]</FONT>
post #33 of 54
Bob B,

I think we've been had. For some strange reason I feel like we three may be the last skiers alive/awake on this July night. Your posts are pure poetry and I hope someone else will have the opportunity to glance at them some time. They are full of sage wisdom and, as I've stated before, I thank you for your time, thought, effort, and energy. I have learned a great deal from your writings and am very much indebted.

At the same time I'm sad. Here you sit wearing out a keyboard with SCSA and a level I instructor. If it was ever truely the case, it is one now, that you have forgotten more than either of us will ever know.

I surrender. The man is not lucid. There is a 45 mph breeze blowing outside from the foothills and I have a full bladder. I'm headed outside and am turning west. I'll have a better chance with a zephyr.
post #34 of 54
Thread Starter 

You know I'm right.

I've made a career out of being unprofessional and I'm proud of it.
post #35 of 54
I think you have been had guys! I would call it a night. I've just read the whole thread and been greatly entertained. Surely he is just messing with you, the alternative is too depressing to consider. BobB's last long post answered questions pointedly and asked some of its own in a very clear manner - and yet it was either not comprehended, simply not read, or this is just a jest. Either way - not much point anymore eh?
post #36 of 54
Rusty, buddy there are other insomniacs about.
SCSA, you are without doubt the most monolithically one dimensional dogmatron I have ever witnessed. Unfortunately we enable your sociopathically myopic point of view and fanaticism by replying to your rants. Harald can have you!
You want a paint by numbers, linear one way ticket to acceptance....listen. You imagine yourself achieving enlightenment, the grail, the one, singular truth. You actually think there is a finish line to learning. You really need to learn to learn.
post #37 of 54
Thread Starter 

And you, and your crew, are nothing but a bunch of clones.
post #38 of 54
SCSA, This is the specific pattern of movements PSIA would prescribe to one with your problems.

Point your skis at the rock.
Ski at the rock.
If you want to miss the rock, push your heels out.
Push your heels out!
Push Your Heels Out!

Awwww Damn...

We reserve this specific pattern of movements fopr special people. We are in collusion with the NAtional Ski Patrol.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
post #39 of 54
Right on, Roto. Your "Rock" reply is the only one really appropriate to the weeks of rants SCSA has posted here in his efforts to hammer the entire rest of the skiing world into his tiny, tight sphere of understanding. He's been right about only one thing so far: He really is absorbed with his own cultish view of HH. I'll bet even HH would blush.
post #40 of 54
Wow. Full circle, again, still.
I hope you do go to a PMTS event Rusty, in spite of all of this.

'Cmon SCSA, you are better than this. If you read something, and don't understand it right away, do you just give up? Did you do that with C++? It would be interesting if you could "shadow" on of us that actually teach skiing, so you could see the variety of situations and solutions a good instructor has to come up with.

From what I have seen, Rusty could teach you a thing or two. I know for a fact that Bob could. Of course, you would have to be in one of your receptive, open minded days.

One point SCSA brought up is VERY good, gang. How do we get materials. etc. to those students, so they know where they are, and where they are going? PMTS is better than that. So is Lito. Ditto, Bob. Study materials for the public!

I also agree about the difficulty in understanding objective specifics in ATS/Centerline. The materials you are reading now are not what you are used to, but it might be fun someday, to go over some of your misunderstandings.

I am ALL for doing things on the snow, because that's where the action is. But I sure would like it if my students had an eval that they can take with them.

I may be one of the few instructors that actually does write a short eval for students. Of course, I put it on the back of my business card.

Materials for students, not just instructors. Hmmm, maybe from individual; ski schools, a marketing and customer service method. Web content? Discussion forums with YOUR instructor(s) at your favorite area?

Interesting analogy, with the English instruction. English is one of the least structured languages, and has a TON of exceptions... Hmmm.

post #41 of 54
Bob, I imagine that you are very good at assesing a student's needs and then teaching them whatever they need to learn, and even encouraging them to take further lessons (especially when giving privates, I don't know if you do groups anymore). However I have NEVER had a lesson where I was given any kind of "If you do x and y exercises , you will be able to ski like this : (demonstrates a particular type of turn)"
kind of goal. Nothing anywhere that specific. And never anything like "the next skill you might want to accomplish is x, and
next time you take a lesson, ask for that..".
In short, all the lessons have been basically a series of demonstrated tips, some very useful, some not. No mention of specific goals, no suggestions of what to do after the lesson to reinforce what's been learned ( such as "take 5 runs down this green hill and practice x, then take 5 more runs and practice y....."). No talk of what it takes in terms of additional lessons and practice to move to the next level. And no talk of alignment.
So while you are probably able to put together an effective lesson plan like this on the spot, I have not found this to be the case with any of the instructors I have met.
Indeed , I have learned much more from printed material and video.
<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by milesb (edited July 09, 2001).]</FONT>
post #42 of 54

Interesting about the lesson plans. The past few years of instruction I have had although they don't do a "if you do ... then..." but I all the lessons I have had included "let's try this" "how did that feel" "now let's try this exercise" "did it feel like ...? Ok, it sounds like you are getting what it feels like?" and usually an ending chat on the last ride up and the parting exchange usually included "the x exercise we did will help you with x part of your skiing.... " and that sort of feedback. I usually ask for what I should maybe be asking for in a next lesson and usually get what seems to be an honest opinion. I have also gotten "work on what we practiced and go from there" as in "maybe I'm not ready for more info yet?" or " get this down first and then move on"?

I don't recall but it may be that I always ask. I don't remember asking but it's possible.
post #43 of 54
One of the problems with asking about the next lesson, is that the instructor doesn't know what you will accomplish between now and then.

You may be told to work on "x" for a while before your next lesson, but "most" students (dchan and Lisamarie not included in "most") will leave the lesson and immediately regress to where they were before the lesson, and will not practice "x" for even one turn. However, even if you do practice, because it is unobserved, you may gink up something else in your skiing, or start practicing "x" in some incorrect way (remember, practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect). So you may show up for a lesson 2 weeks later and say "Okay, I practiced 'x' for 3 straight days, and my instructor told me my next lesson should work on 'y'". Yet, when observed by the instructor (same one or different one), you may need to fix 'x', 'g' or 'L', and working on 'y' would either be impossible or really screw things up.

While we can make suggestions for the next lesson, nothing is in stone. I've even had to change direction 15 minutes into a lesson, because I thought that they needed to work on 'x', but when I did the first exercise, I found that the root of their problem was something totally different.

The problem stems from the fact that good skiing requires a good blend of skills. And no book will be able to tell you which skill will be YOUR weakest, or that you may be using too much of. Nor will any book be able to tell you if you are doing something well enough on the hill to move on, or be able to do things such as address fear or other internal barriers to learning. You may want to learn bumps, and the book will tell you how to make a turn in the bumps. But if your short turn skills are severly lacking, the exercises in the book will be useless to you.

Trying to predict the future and tell someone that they should do 'x' in their next lesson, unless their lesson is in an hour, is no better than getting your lesson plan from a book.

On another note, I never had a problem understanding the concept of centerline. I guess it was just explained well to me, in that it is a concept, and it CAN be a way to ski if you want it to be. However, it is just a reference point. Sort of like a fairway on a golf course that has a major dog leg. Sure, you can stay on the fairway if you want. But you might also want to try to fly it over the trees or lay up. If you can ski the centerline moves easily at will, then you will have no problem going to either side of that. It's your choice. And you MUST be able to teach down the centerline, because you want to be able to teach any student any thing they want, whether it's right on that centerline, or way off to one side or the other.

Hmmm... I rambled, and I think I lost track.... oh well.
post #44 of 54
>>but "most" students (dchan and Lisamarie not included in "most") <<

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Really though, good point JohnH
perfect practice makes perfect
Now where do I get a pill for that?
post #45 of 54
The skiing public doesn't get irate, they just get frustrated and stop taking lessons.
post #46 of 54
speaking for the "not most" public, I will and do get irate! if it's my lesson or one I recommend to a friend. You can bet the SSD will hear about a bad lesson.

By the way, it goes for cheap lessons, free lessons (if they are meant to be "teasers" or promotional") It also goes for any other "service" industry. ie food service, wine service, store clerks....

however, on the flip side there will be praise and good tips for good and great service including notes of thanks to managment/directors and of course referals...<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited July 09, 2001).]</FONT>
post #47 of 54
Dchan, thanks for the book loan - I just sent it on to the next person on the address list. I'm going to just buy all the books for my collection, its got everything else in it - why not HH'S too? As far as a critique of the content. Its all been hashed over pretty well here. I think he has excellent ideas, nothing new - I would expect any of our top instructors to be able to teach the same progressions if circumstances/individual needs dictated - or be able to teach completely different progressions if thats whats needed. Versatility - the trademark of a great teacher, not a linear inflexible regimen. But again, though not unique (except for his inventions of new terms for old concepts/movements) it has some decent progressions in it. Too bad he is so angry at the world, interferes some with the message. Anyways, thanks and the book is in the mail!
post #48 of 54
The issues Bob described are correct. A Teaching Model exists and all ski schools should incorporate that model or some variation in their on-hill evaluation of class management, whether the instructor is certified or not.
I think the best way to provide supplemental learning material is to provide a CD-ROM to each student. Obviously, to provide this for every school group 2 hour introductory may prove cost prohibitive....but the thought has me thinking!!!
post #49 of 54
I am reluctant to respond to this post, especially because I know so little about the technical stuff. But that doesn't seem to stop some from contributing. I can tell you what I see from the outside. I'm a skier who has posted a few times on this site and have received a lot of good information. I actually reveiwed HH's website before this site. I don't know PSIA, except that I have had lessons from some of those folks.

Last year I had a beer or two with a ski instructor who is quite well known, probably well known as much because of his skiing as his teaching. I don't know what if any professional affiliations he keeps. He had talks with HH about joining forces, but he pulled away because he thought that HH was so rigid in his clinics, progressions and viewpoints. The unnamed ski instructor didn't think it would be much fun for him or the type of skiers he likes to teach.

What I find interesting from this and in light of SCSA's comments is that HH may have that type of personality that says: "there is only one way to do thing correctly - my way." Perhaps the fondness SCSA has for HH is driven by the same personality that pushes the unnamed ski instructor away.This certainly seems to underpin the arguments that SCSA makes.

I suggest this conclusion because, as Bob and the others have pointed out here, SCSA seems to ignore all things that don't fit into a predetermined mindset. His real arguments seem to follow a totalitarian mindset. Those relying on arguments from authority will always find ways to explain away many contradictory, valid arguments, not by logic or experience, but by relying on that same authority or, as SCSA has resorted to on this post, name calling - the first form of argument we all learn.

The authority here is either HH, PMSA or both. If the assumption is that anything that contradicts that authority is wrong, it doesn't make for fertile ground for dialogue.

My two cents.

Rob<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by rob (edited July 09, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by rob (edited July 09, 2001).]</FONT>
post #50 of 54
Two more cents. And admittedly, you all lose me quick when it gets real technical, so a grain of salt, okay?

If I get the history correct, SCSA has done a LOT of skiing over the past couple years, and with a strong desire to get better, to become a very strong skier. I think some would agree that THAT kind of mileage along with a certain kind of athleticism that lends itself to skiing is already a jump-start toward rapid progression, even withOUT any formal training, per se. But if you add to that a system, borrowed or original but with at least SOME sound and efficient method, that is the one said skier happens upon, it probably won't hurt much and the skier makes an association (rapid progress) with that teaching method. Thus a kind of allegiance born, mainly, of a desire to progress that, with The System, has yielded results. I'm not going to say ANOTHER system mightn't have produced as well - I've said I think it's up to the student to improve; look hard enough, you WILL find SOMEthing helpful SOMEwhere - but SCSA'S experience is what he knows. And whether or not his take on PSIA is accurate or fair, his take on PMTS is based on what has happened, rather than what gets said. (Anyway, that has been the crux of my attempt to follow SCSA'S reasoning or seeming lack of same. We like what has flat-out worked for us, even if our methods of addressing specific issues might be flawed.)

I'm sorry if I've missed the obvious question in this regard; namely, whether or not SCSA has had much if any personal lesson experience with PSIA.
post #51 of 54
John's point about d-chan and myself being atypical as ski students {and as people too }is correct. Not only will we practice what we were taught, we will come to this forum and ask questions about it. Most people do not do this. At a ski conditioning workshop at the IDEA conference, the instructor spent the first 15 minutes discussing how stance width needs to be wider because of the new types of equipment, and because of that, our ski conditioning programs should not be taught with our feet locked together. This was a no brainer for me, but you would have been surprised at all the baffled looks she was getting.
BTW, may entire computer system has crashed, so it will take a few days before I give a full report.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited July 09, 2001).]</FONT>
post #52 of 54
All of these threads bring to mind a phenomena in the martial arts...... most often associated with the Korean factions..

Usually you find:

A "Grand Master"

A cult like following that espouses the teachings of the "Master"

Associated drones who run the "Masters" schools and collect the $$$$$$, through continuing "contract" lessons.

I find it amusing that the instructors in the HH system are even wearing pins.... green, brown and black..... does Master Harb don the red pin..... ???

Kurt Vonnegut put it best in Cat's Cradle....
Nothing works without an opposite force. What would Jesus have been without Herod and Judas? You gotta have demons to have heaven. And, if memory serves, the two main characters in the book orchestrated the whole arrangement.... Government vs Boku Maru.

So Wacko was sent to hang Harb on the cross. The question, sent by Harb or a self sacrificing drone?
post #53 of 54
Harold, get down off the cross...we need the wood!
post #54 of 54
Since this thread started out purportedly as a review of the "Encyclopedia of Skiing" I thought I would write that I recently purchased the book. It is GREAT reading and is much more than a mere encyclodedia. The book contains a wealth of skiing information not found in traditional "How to..." books as well as providing a explanation and context for many skiing concepts and terms not found in most skiing publications.

Although the book seems targeted towards ski instructers and other skiing pros anyone with a lot of interest in skiing will find it worthwhile reading (with a possible exception or two).

"The Encylopedia of Skiing" is helping me to get through the summer along with this forum (alhough a certain mecurial morphing personality generates more heat than light here).
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