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Dont lean on the front? - Page 6

post #151 of 180
Hey Rusty,

Maybe I am missing something, but all I have to do is to click the URL button and I am prompted for the complete URL and when I click OK I am then prompted for what I want to call it.

Here is what it ends up looking like.

Click here to go to the EpicSki home page.

Weems, I think you have to first post the picture to a web page and then put the link to the web page. You can, for example go to Yahoo and they have a Pictures section where you can post your own pictures. Put your picture there and then put a link to it. To do a link bring up the picture and right click on it, and select the URL or select Properties and then cut and paste the full URL into your post.

For me to include Bob's photo montage I did the latter.

Bob
post #152 of 180


This photo of Canadian racer Matt Holler, age 14 when the photo was taken, is hosted on my web site. I just click on the Instant UBB Code for IMAGE and copy the URL.

To do the fancy URL, do the same only select URL from the UBB options.
post #153 of 180
Thanks. I'll try that. I didn't understand that it had to be posted to a website.
post #154 of 180
To view this from a slightly different perspective, what are the actions that we are attempting to have the skis do what? In other words, what do we want the skis to do and thus what are we doing to each of them?
post #155 of 180
Sorry about the delay in getting to the rest of my thesis about the idea of leveraging/leaning into the front of the boot....
Just too many people, meetings and not nearly enough hours that I can keep my eyes open in a given day...

So- to pick up where I left off- I set the basic parameters of the stance issues and why. To reiterate, the intent of the skier will greatly dictate the variations of technique that will be affectively used.

Let's take a look at a skier who's intent is to make high performance(carved) short radius turns. If we pick up on the skier as the transition is about to be made from one turn to the next, the legs are generally getting shorter/flexing, managing/absorbing the pressure/energy being generated by the speed and radius of a carving ski(Cp). If this energy is allowed to become to great, it will not allow the skier to make the transition smoothly.
As the forward movement of the skiers core becomes aligned with the desired direction of the next turn, the legs are relaxed. This allows the core to be drawn across the skis(harnessing Cf), into the new turn.
The transfer of dominance from one ski to the other occurs during this phase. This transference can be passive or very active, depending upon the desired outcome of the turn.(The shorter the turn, the more active and sooner this must be)
As the core is taking a shorter line through the turn than the skis, it starts getting slightly ahead of the feet during the early phase of the turn. This might be viewed as increasing the pressure on the front of the boot, but in fact, the increase in pressure to the tongue is minimal. Most of the pressure will be towards the sides of the boot.
During this phase, the skis are tipped to their new edges, and the legs begin to lengthen/extend in order to maintain adequate pressure/energy between the ski and snow.
The skis begin to carve into the falline and a relative state of similar speed is established between the core and the skis. As the carving of the ski occurs, that arc begins to redirect the core into it's new path. An dramatic increase in pressure/energy is realized as this redirection begins to move away from the fallline and across the natural pull of the hill.
Once again, the skiers legs begin to shorten/flex to manage/absorb the pressure/energy being generated by the speed and radius of a carving ski(Cp).

Now let's look at some of the variables which may occur with this description.

Beginning with intent, let's suppose the skier wishes to tighten the arc of the turn. The primary changes to be made are a higher edge angle of the skis on the snow. This is effected by increasing the amount of pressure on the boot- not so much forward, but more toward the 9-10 and 2-3 o'clock positions. The skier would also adjust the balance point forward, maybe as much as 3/4" to 1". This will be enough to bend the forebody of the ski, without over loading the boot and possibly allowing the hips to get too far forward.
The basic movements and refined timing remain generally the same.
Should the skier wish to lengthen the turn, these movements and timings might be subtley delayed/retarded, without the change in fore/aft balance, and be more passive.

What would happen if the boot tongue was loaded up during any particular phase of the turn? Likely, the ski tip would overload and the tail would run the very great risk of washing out, and/or chattering. The same result would probably occur if any rotary movement were instigated prior to positive edge engagement. These two, individually or together, are common deficiencies in many recreational skiers.

How does the ski design affect this scenario? If the ski were unbalanced, (soft tip, stiffer tail)any excessive loading of the tip through tongue loading of the boot would again result in excessive hooking of the tip. This can be controlled to some extent, but too much results in a decceleration of the ski, causing the core to move forward of the feet if not contained. At this point, the legs/hip joint will begin to lose it's mobility. This results in a loss of accuracy during the transition and control, until such a time as the leg is unlocked again.
On the other hand, if the ski tip were stiffer, the skier would have to exert greater than normal pressure on the ski tip throughout the turn, in order to get it to carve the desired arc. Once again, this will most likely result in a balance position forward of that desired, and that required to maintain mobility and accuracy.

When balanced accurately during a turn, right on the sweet spot, you may find that there seems to be very little pressure being exerted on the front 1/3 of the ski(the SLOW part of the ski). Though photos often show what appears to be the tip hooking up and bending mightily, due to the width and flexibility of that part of the ski, it takes very little pressure to achieve that result.
Far more critical is how much the skier can bend the midbody and tail of the ski (the FAST part of the ski). By the way- if you happen to find that the back 1/3 of the foot falls right in the middle of the fast part of the ski, would you think it coincidence? I think NOT!

I hope I have made myself clear enough to be understood. I'll have to check back in the morning to see if any of this makes sense!

:
post #156 of 180
Draw your own conclusions.







post #157 of 180
Quote:
Originally posted by ssh:
To view this from a slightly different perspective, what are the actions that we are attempting to have the skis do what? In other words, what do we want the skis to do and thus what are we doing to each of them?
Exactly. This is where it all starts.
post #158 of 180
Quote:
Originally posted by weems:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ssh:
To view this from a slightly different perspective, what are the actions that we are attempting to have the skis do what? In other words, what do we want the skis to do and thus what are we doing to each of them?
Exactly. This is where it all starts.</font>[/quote]Thanks, weems. So, in this discussion, what are the variables for each ski that we are trying to effect? VSP/Ric mentioned edge angle and arcing (decambering) the ski in the forebody to shape a tighter carved turn. Is your purpose for the 3 extremes to do this to the skis? Or, in actuality, to do something different than Ric suggests?

From my reading of your comments, it seems the latter. But, I don't want to put words in your mouth...
post #159 of 180
Quote:
Originally posted by ssh:
So, in this discussion, what are the variables for each ski that we are trying to effect? VSP/Ric mentioned edge angle and arcing (decambering) the ski in the forebody to shape a tighter carved turn. Is your purpose for the 3 extremes to do this to the skis? Or, in actuality, to do something different than Ric suggests?

From my reading of your comments, it seems the latter. But, I don't want to put words in your mouth...
I'm trying to do the same thing as Ric suggests. I'm trying to bend the ski onto its edge into the turn. I think we have some subtle differences of opinion on how this is done. (For example, I believe the legs are rarely flexed or extended the same amount in order to carve. Only at the flat spot in the transition are they the same for me.)

Mostly I'm trying to carve where I can. If I need to dump speed or go steeper, I'll do it with less angle, allowing more crank. However, I will still press forward against the tongue of the boot, move the hips forward over the feet, and take the whole package inward as well.

The pictures I posted, to me are perfect skiing, and can be done to some degree of proficiency by any skier (albeit on less edge and at less speed). I also think the picture of Nolo's friend is really great. If he had his inside ski on the snow, it would look almost exactly like the Canadian racer (third picture).

[ February 22, 2004, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: weems ]
post #160 of 180
weems, one of the things that blows me away in these (and similar) pictures of WC skiers is how close to their inside boot cuffs their glutes are! Clearly, the inside foot is forward of the hip, since the boot cuff is effectively in front of the glute as it drops almost to the snow. While I am virtually certain I could not get my body to create those extreme angles, it re-enforced for me the move of the hip in relation to the foot and the inside hip in relation to the outside.

The only way to play with these extreme edge angles (or the relative version of that for us mortals!) is to get those relative positions right.
post #161 of 180
I agree.

The extreme ankle flex, shin on the tongue and to the inside, for me is a clue, however, that the inside foot is allowed to creep forward only as far as dictated by the "squeeze" from the hips. Also I believe the main intention is to keep the hips mainly square in this position. Again, it's the extreme angle (as you say hips close to the snow) that forces the "inside half" of the body ahead. If it is allowed to go too far, pressure to the tip is lost with subsequent damage to the radius.

When we see these kinds of positions, I believe we tend to read them as the skier actually advancing the ski. (I believe that Ron LeMaster, and even some of the team guys he talked to read it like that.) However, the tension of holding the squeeze there on the inside half is really amazing, and not really visible.

Also notice that the inside shoulder and hand are lower than the outside. The axis of the torso is tipped inward significantly--although, also significantly, not more than the legs. This relates to Nolo's discussion about the inside hip actually raising. I don't think these guys actually do that, but I think the "squeeze" of the inside leg has the same effect--that of keeping the pelvis from tipping too far in and thus losing the edge of the outside ski. I think at slower speeds, on steeper terrain, and with less severe edge angles, I probably do what Nolo says on that. However, it is really fun to take it in to the edge of the envelope and feel that inside hand/hip/shoulder so close to the ground and STILL have enough angulation to remain balanced against the edges.

Also, if you ever see pictures of racers on superbikes, I think it's an almost identical complex of balancing movements and positiions.

[ February 23, 2004, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: weems ]
post #162 of 180
My conculsion is that you don't get to the WC level without very flexible ankles and bindings mounted to the rear.
post #163 of 180
Unlike Pierre, I haven't come to any conclusions! Nonetheless, it was sure fun messing with this yesterday. Thanks all who have contributed!

Regardless of whether I was trying to move forward "with" the skis or drive forward against the cuffs, seems like the biggest benefit I'm gaining right now is by focusing on managing that pressure (at the end of the turn) Ric mentioned combined with closing the ankle and really driving with the inside leg and allowing my CM to flow into the new turn. Compared to my usual hanging onto the the turn to long, loading up the outside leg and often pushing the new inside leg forward instead of tipping. Interesting how much better the skis carve by relaxing and reducing edge at the bottom and the transition is smoother, not rushed and I don't feel the need to steer into the turn.

Of course there were the times I didn't keep up with the skis.....

Thanks,

Chris
post #164 of 180
Should I or shouldn't I? Bring this back to the top that is. I guess I will.

I was skiing with Dave Merriam the other day, and brought up this topic, because as I said before, this does remind me of the "reaching turn" all except the whole pressuring the front of the boot thing (title of the thread, so I guess it's a pretty big difference). Having talked to him, it seems to me that there could be some confusion about cause and effect, and it's also possible that moves are being made to do things that would have happened anyway. The crux being, does pressuring the boot cause the ski to bend and turn, or does turning bend the ski which causes pressure on the foot (and the tongue of the boot). I think it's the latter, and thern it's your choice as to what part of the boot will get the pressure, a tactical choice based on how you want to harness the forces you have begun to generate. Dave had a great analogy - picture a car going through a corner. The outside suspension compresses as it goes through the corner. Is there some mechanical device that compresses the outside springs and extends the inside springs? No, there isn't, the forces generated by the turn are compressing the springs. That's about all I have to say, read on if you want to get nipicky.

I was thinking of two examples that may have more to relate to cars, but are perhaps applicable to skiing too. First I was thinking of active suspension, because someone could say well hey there is a mechanical device on the suspension. OK, so we have active suspension too, and we can use it to stiffen our springs to help manage the forces. The other thing I was thinking of is the way that a rally driver can manage the pressure into rebound. He preloads the suspension by turning "the wrong way" then harnesses the forces stored in his suspension to make a faster turn the right way, the Scandanavian Flick. I'd say that we can do this with our suspension too.
post #165 of 180
I think that last part is pretty interesting and probably a great analogy.

On the first part, how do you get your skis to bend up in the tip? If you just go across, you've got edge. If you go up, you've got runaway. If you go forward, you've got shovel. How do you go forward and stay off the front of the boots?
post #166 of 180
Quote:
Originally posted by weems:
On the first part, how do you get your skis to bend up in the tip? If you just go across, you've got edge. If you go up, you've got runaway. If you go forward, you've got shovel. How do you go forward and stay off the front of the boots?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Maybe you can rephrase that. I would ask though, what is forward? Forward relative to the direction your skis are pointing, or relative to your direction of travel?
post #167 of 180
Sounds like Automobile Plyometrics to me.
Most top athletes use Plyometric training.
post #168 of 180
Weems asks 'If you go forward, you've got shovel. How do you go forward and stay off the front of the boots? '

Isn't the aim to stay centred so that you have the capacity to reverse camber the skis in which case the 'get forward' business is a precautionary tactic to preempt getting thrown backwards. The skis aren't bent any more by being forward of centre, the more they bend the tighter they carve a turn and that is achieved by preessure at the midpoint.
post #169 of 180
Quote:
Originally posted by daslider:
Isn't the aim to stay centred so that you have the capacity to reverse camber the skis in which case the 'get forward' business is a precautionary tactic to preempt getting thrown backwards. The skis aren't bent any more by being forward of centre, the more they bend the tighter they carve a turn and that is achieved by preessure at the midpoint.
It's true that pressuring the ski at the mid-point will bend it as much (or more)than pressuring it forward of center, but there's more to it than that. Pressure on the front engages the tip, which draws the ski into the turn. Once the ski begins to turn, dynamic forces build up and bend the ski more than the skier can by using static body weight alone. Forward pressure isn't just "precautionary," it's an aggressive tactic to initiate turns. That's the way we carved turns on ski straight skis, which would not bend much at all simply by pressure at the mid-point.

Again, this is all about emphasis. I think everyone agrees top racers use forward pressure, and that straight skis require lots of forward pressure, and that modern skis require much less forward pressure for good results.

Regards, John
post #170 of 180
John

while it does feel this way, I need convincing that it is how it works. If you strapped a 10lb weight towards the front of one ski (is that what those Xscream luggage racks are for?) would that ski turn dramatically at the first hint of an edge?

And as far a leverage goes doesn't this couple cancel out the optimum flexing got by pressuring the middle?

I think sometimes there is an illusion of getting forward because prior to that I was back and I merely end up centred.

The system you describe only has your momentum as its engine and that is best directed at the midpoint for max deflection of the ski, these turning forces are only what results from your change of momentum. Your mass is constant so the variable is the deflection the skis can achieve and this is maximised by their own deflection/edge angle.

Staying centred may require that you attempt to get forward particularly at the transition crossover/under where the skis are accelerated by their longer path.
post #171 of 180
QUOTE]Originally posted by daslider:
John

while it does feel this way, I need convincing that it is how it works. If you strapped a 10lb weight towards the front of one ski (is that what those Xscream luggage racks are for?) would that ski turn dramatically at the first hint of an edge?

[/quote]

Actually, with or with a 10 pound weight, my slalom skis do "turn dramatically at the first hint of an edge."

"And as far a leverage goes doesn't this couple cancel out the optimum flexing got by pressuring the middle?" I don't know what that means. Where is the couple? How does pressuring the middle cancel the flex?

"The system you describe only has your momentum as its engine and that is best directed at the midpoint for max deflection of the ski, these turning forces are only what results from your change of momentum. Your mass is constant so the variable is the deflection the skis can achieve and this is maximised by their own deflection/edge angle."

Actually, a skier's momentum is changed by the forces generated by the ski. And while my mass is constant (in the short run), my weight is variable. The lateral acceleration if a turn increases my weight and allows me to exert more pressure on the ski. That's just physics.

"Staying centred may require that you attempt to get forward particularly at the transition crossover/under where the skis are accelerated by their longer path."
As long as we are both attempting to get forward, the only disagreement we have is about how far forward we get. Because the only data on that is our own internal perception of where we are relative to the center. There's really not much to talk about.
"I think sometimes there is an illusion of getting forward because prior to that I was back and I merely end up centred." I think it's an illusion that you ended up centered when in fact you were actually pressuring the front of your skis.
post #172 of 180
Roland Rock

you wrtote: "Actually, a skier's momentum is changed by the forces generated by the ski. And while my mass is constant (in the short run), my weight is variable. The lateral acceleration if a turn increases my weight and allows me to exert more pressure on the ski. That's just physics"

would you like to explain this, particularly the second sentence, typo perhaps?

imo the ski is a tool, it doesn't add anymore energy than you put into it. It can deflect your momentum and you have to deal with the resulting forces, but you have created them, they are not somehow provided by the ski (even the energy stored in a sprung bent ski is put there by you).

So my suggestion is that getting forward of the centre may actually be counterproductive as a shaped ski is capable of hooking itself up when rolled on edge and the skier needs to concentrate then on effecting the bend/inclination of the ski appropriate to the desired turn, all of which is best done centred.

The dynamics tend to put you back, so to stay centred you may have to try and get forward, done by bringing the skis back under rather than the body tipping forwards, but nevertheless you don't actually want to end up forwards!

Think of dropping into a pipe. You have to try and get in before the skis in order to remain centred on them, just as you do dropping into a turn, but this is different from trying to ride the front of the skis.
post #173 of 180
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
My conculsion is that you don't get to the WC level without very flexible ankles and bindings mounted to the rear.
Why bindings mounted to the rear? An interesting picture for me: one of the very young kids in our town is now skiing all over Aspen Mountain with GREAT technique. He seems to have bypassed the nearly universal kids tendency to sit back. His fathter, one of our pros, Jim Hancock, told me that he has mounted his son's bindings 1.5 inches forward. From that moment, the kid was in touch with the tips and never went back!
post #174 of 180
Quote:
Originally posted by John Dowling:
It's true that pressuring the ski at the mid-point will bend it as much (or more)than pressuring it forward of center, but there's more to it than that. Pressure on the front engages the tip, which draws the ski into the turn. Once the ski begins to turn, dynamic forces build up and bend the ski more than the skier can by using static body weight alone. Forward pressure isn't just "precautionary," it's an aggressive tactic to initiate turns. That's the way we carved turns on ski straight skis, which would not bend much at all simply by pressure at the mid-point.

Again, this is all about emphasis. I think everyone agrees top racers use forward pressure, and that straight skis require lots of forward pressure, and that modern skis require much less forward pressure for good results.

Regards, John
I agree with your first paragraph. I don't agree with your second. There was some controversy (like today) about the old straight skis. Some of them were built to be tail loaded, some in the middle, some in the front. I remember hearing very different things from many good skiers. I believe, however, that the modern skis are universally built to come alive with strong forward pressure.

Again, I don't feel it's that critical that I be right. However, I feel and see what I feel and see. As a last gasp in this discussion, I refer you all to the photo of Bode in the March 8 issue of Sports Illustrated in the Leading Off section. For me this is a perfect illustration of what I aspire to. At my level and at the level of my students, we obviously have to detune--but certainly the attempt to go forward, we do not detune.

Now I'm dropping out of this discussion and going back to the Swimsuit Issue!
post #175 of 180
Quote:
Why bindings mounted to the rear? An interesting picture for me: one of the very young kids in our town is now skiing all over Aspen Mountain with GREAT technique. He seems to have bypassed the nearly universal kids tendency to sit back. His fathter, one of our pros, Jim Hancock, told me that he has mounted his son's bindings 1.5 inches forward. From that moment, the kid was in touch with the tips and never went back!
Weems you are only making my point with this statement. The only reason the WC racers can do this is their extreme range. The same range gives them the advantage. The rest of us including kids can benefit from more forward mounting. This is what I typed in the "Forward??" thread Mar 5 at 3:14pm
Quote:
One more thing. If I have junior racers who don't have the strength to bend the boots and get forward I am going to want to mount their bindings more forward so they are not in the dumper and gradually move them back as they get better and stronger.
post #176 of 180
What is your source to indicate that the WC racers mount their bindings toward the rear? I'm asking because I've never seen or heard this. Is this conjecture or do you know of some specific guys that do this? I'm really curious.
post #177 of 180
No weems its my damn good guess that WC skiers don't mount the bindings any where near as far forward as I do. Got no proof other than what I know that I would do if I had that kind of ability to move fore and aft and I wanted more SPEED. Remember, I am speaking in general terms. Its all relative. What is a binding mounted to the rear for me may not be for you.

I get to ski the extremes, at least for me, because I switch from telemark to alpine. I must pressure the fronts of my alpine boots at what seems like a very uncomfortable amount but the bindings are mounted about 4 cm further to the rear in relation to the sweet spot than are my telemark bindings. The alpine bindings are mounted where the manufacturer suggests mounting the bindings.
post #178 of 180
Weems what I am really trying to do here is stimulate food for thought. These differences in binding placement have come to my attention more out of the extreme differences in the equipment that I own. I have other alpine and telemark skis as well. All require a different amount of forward pressure and knee movement into the turn to get the desired results from the ski tips.

I am in the process of trying to move the bindings to get them to feel all the same. The extremes between my equipment requires to long to get the feel when I switch back and forth.

I have been looking at other instructors equipment and have found in general that the instructors who are more defensive in their skiing have the bindings mounted further aft of the sweet spot than the instructors who don't. Most defensive skiing is just purely technique but I have found a suprising amound disappears with binding placement changes. With the new rail systems, bindings can be moved forward quite easily. The changes this can produce is remarkable.

I heard references to moving bindings forward for womens skis but also from Peter Keelty and some of the better ski shops in the west. I am finding this to be a bigger variable than I previously thought. I know it makes a huge difference in the amount of forward pressure needed to engage the ski tips.
post #179 of 180
This binding stuff is interesting. Thanks. It's an area where I spend very little time and thought. I appreciate your thoughtfulness about it, and don't have any opinions.

I've never been aware of your idea happening on the World Cup, but there's a lot of stuff they do that we don't know that much about.
post #180 of 180
flatldr moved his bindings ahead some and I noticed an immediate improvement in his ability to get forward at the end of the turn and engage the tip in a offensive manner. He has had a few days now to ski on them. I wonder if he can give us some comments on what he thinks. He is a level III and pretty agressive skier.
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