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post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
post #2 of 22
We used to call that "rowing". I think it helps to push that outside arm forward, but the exagerated motion seems a bit much.
post #3 of 22
1) Not sure what you're referring to with the outside hand.

2) She won.

3) Most importantly, she's really hot ... what was the question?
post #4 of 22
What is the inside hand doing? She is doing the same thing with both hands. She keeps her hands out to the sides for edging and balancing purposes but then she needs to get her inside hand on the outside the gate. If she only moved her inside hand forward there would be a great deal of imbalance created. This way the forward motion of mass is the same on both sides. Furthermore it has the function of helping her bring her hips forwards in the transition. She is voulting over. ILE. Bringing her arms back pushes everything else forwards. Helps her stand up. Note that little back push of the outside arm right after she initially brought her arms back and down a bit. As she brings them forwards she projects herself forwards, mainly with the outside arm. IMHO offcourse.

Rowing, LOL, yes, this was the standard back in the good old times.
post #5 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
What is the inside hand doing? She is doing the same thing with both hands. She keeps her hands out to the sides for edging and balancing purposes but then she needs to get her inside hand on the outside the gate. If she only moved her inside hand forward there would be a great deal of imbalance created. This way the forward motion of mass is the same on both sides. Furthermore it has the function of helping her bring her hips forwards in the transition. She is voulting over. ILE. Bringing her arms back pushes everything else forwards. Helps her stand up. Note that little back push of the outside arm right after she initially brought her arms back and down a bit. As she brings them forwards she projects herself forwards, mainly with the outside arm. IMHO offcourse.

Rowing, LOL, yes, this was the standard back in the good old times.
This distinguished move of the outside arm is called `Nachrotation`(afterotation) in some Austrian technical manuals and videos.
It has to do among other things with the move of the upperbody downhill, where the arm goes up at the beginning of the turn. At the end it comes down and around.

I was hoping Big E would comment on it. I think it das also something to do with the hips and he has some ideas about that.

Of course you mentioned the hips coming forward. They may also rotate.
post #6 of 22
Technically, moving the arms alone won't change the location of the CM. What it will do is change your fore and aft alignment so that your body comes forwards when you pull them back.

Note that you have to let this happen. Certainly, you can stand completely still and not let it work. But the focus IMO of the movement is to promote recentering.

When the arms are forwards, the CM is centered, but the hips are back. When the arms are moved back for the CM to remain centered, the hips need to move forwards. This is recentering of stance, not of CM.

She sometimes does it twice -- once to recenter, then WITHOUT LETTING THE HIPS MOVE BACK AS THE ARMS GO FORWARD, she rows once more to pull the hips even further forwards.

Moving the arms forward without moving anything else back will move the CM forwards. Pulling the arms back and letting the hips move forwards (hinging at the ankle) will move the hips forwards, but not the CM.
post #7 of 22
BigE, correct me if Im wrong but isnt she keeping her hips centered over the pressured ski(s) through out the whole run (trying to anyway). If you look at any fame in the run you can see that one leg is allways extended, at transition both, and her hips therefore never drop back. The resentering move is helping her move her hips forward but mainly helps her keeping them there.
post #8 of 22
At fall-line, she is extended, with arms forwards upper body forwards and inside foot a bit forwards. This would mean CM is forwards.

Now, when the balance point moves to the inside leg, the leg is more folded and the foot is ahead. Result: stance is now instantly aft and needs to be recentered. Arms get pulled back to assist the ILE in moving her hips forwards. Her stance gets recentered.
post #9 of 22
Bringing the outside arm forward increases pressure on the outside ski. I do it all the time. Most call it a flaw in my skiing but it does improve edge hold. It increases the pressure on the ski, this helps bring it around.
post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Technically, moving the arms alone won't change the location of the CM. What it will do is change your fore and aft alignment so that your body comes forwards when you pull them back.

Note that you have to let this happen. Certainly, you can stand completely still and not let it work. But the focus IMO of the movement is to promote recentering.

When the arms are forwards, the CM is centered, but the hips are back. When the arms are moved back for the CM to remain centered, the hips need to move forwards. This is recentering of stance, not of CM.

She sometimes does it twice -- once to recenter, then WITHOUT LETTING THE HIPS MOVE BACK AS THE ARMS GO FORWARD, she rows once more to pull the hips even further forwards.

Moving the arms forward without moving anything else back will move the CM forwards. Pulling the arms back and letting the hips move forwards (hinging at the ankle) will move the hips forwards, but not the CM.
IMO these arm movements are resulting from the movement of bigger body parts. That s why I asked you to get involved. You made some interesting remarks re. the upper body moving down the hill and wether that was intentional or a result of te skis moving out from underneath. i think the later is the case and that arm goes up because the upperbody get pulled. Likewise the arm comes down and around when the upperbody catches up with the skis. you had an interesting discussion with Gary D.about inside hip release or something along that line. I never understood what you were talking about but it sounded like something that could make sense. I dont know if you want to get into this here but I certainly am interested because I suspect that the hips play a role in this arm movement.
post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
IMO these arm movements are resulting from the movement of bigger body parts.
The arm movements are intentional and learned from a coach.
post #12 of 22
In my opinion, the arm movements assist the movement of the upper body forwards. They are not side-effects.
post #13 of 22
The lifting of the outside arm at the top of the turn assists in creating early inclination, and moving the CM quickly into the turn. Angulation and leveling comes later.

Don't get fooled by the aggressive wrenching back down and forward of that outside arm. Notice where it happens; right at the gate. It's a compensatory move to balance out the same inward move of the inside arm she does to avoid hooking it around the gate as she passes by it. Both arms move in together, so she can maintain equilibrium.

Take a look at the tuck turns. There the inside arm is already out of the way of the gate. Because of that, no aggressive arm movements are needed or used.
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
At fall-line, she is extended, with arms forwards upper body forwards and inside foot a bit forwards. This would mean CM is forwards.

Now, when the balance point moves to the inside leg, the leg is more folded and the foot is ahead. Result: stance is now instantly aft and needs to be recentered. Arms get pulled back to assist the ILE in moving her hips forwards. Her stance gets recentered.
http://vimeo.com/2887502
post #15 of 22
Video is too jerky for me to view.
post #16 of 22
I don't know too much about this, but haven't you taken your outside arm and moved it forward firmly once well into the turn. It really increases pressure on the outside ski and the ski bends and comes around nicely. Feels great, but it may not be good technique. I believe Bode will do this also.

And then there's the figure skater's spin. The racer is bringing her arm from back to forward, but also from away from her body to close to her body.
post #17 of 22
The figure skaters spin uses the law of conservation of momentum (in their case rotational momentum) to spin faster when arms close, and slower with arms wide open.

Paul what I think you are experiencing is an increased tension in the core when you move the arm forwards, and probably some inclination as you come out of the turn.... You could do the same thing with your arms glued to your sides and turn the shoulders.

Flawed? Perhaps -- you did invoke Bode to justify it......

it is a move that negates counter. You may want to remain countered, but then can you increase pressure?

Try the outside boot touch instead, while your jacket zipper remains vertical.....inside hand on hip, with inside hip lifted up. You should get more pressure without loss of counter.
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Video is too jerky for me to view.
They are screen shots not a video. Cant you brake down the movements for us from these stills? I find the original video to be to quick.
post #19 of 22
There's one thing to consider when it comes to technique with top level athletes. Ok I admit I was never competing in alpine skiing, but I was competing for 20 years in top level xc skiing, and this what I'm going to write is not strictly related to one particular sport. It goes same way for alpine skiing, as it was for xc skiing.
There's proper by the book technique, and then there's technique you get over the years of training and it fits you best. None of top level athletes has perfect, by the book technique. They develop their own versions, and they found out through the years what works best for them. It might look weird, it might even look inefficient, but for them it works best. With skiing (alpine or xc), it's all about time. They don't give grades for perfect technique, so all it matters is how fast you cross finish line.
And one more thing... it's totally useless trying to copy technique from one of these guys. This what works for them, will most likely never work for anyone of us.
PS: Sorry for a bit off topic post.
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
The lifting of the outside arm at the top of the turn assists in creating early inclination, and moving the CM quickly into the turn. Angulation and leveling comes later.

Don't get fooled by the aggressive wrenching back down and forward of that outside arm. Notice where it happens; right at the gate. It's a compensatory move to balance out the same inward move of the inside arm she does to avoid hooking it around the gate as she passes by it. Both arms move in together, so she can maintain equilibrium.

Take a look at the tuck turns. There the inside arm is already out of the way of the gate. Because of that, no aggressive arm movements are needed or used.
Exactly. Just watch the frozen frames I provided.
post #21 of 22
I liked Primoz's post .
post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
I liked Primoz's post .
Very good and not out of context at all. Too little focus on personality and personal style in ski technique nowadays especially here at the web. To get things in perspective check out how pros serve in tennis on tv. Or make any other movement on the court. Very different. Still they all do some things exactly the same way. Same should apply to skiing. How soon do you need to angulate for example? Isnt the main thing edge hold, how the skis run over the snow and where the clock stops. Nice to see some variation in movements and technique. Makes it all much more interesting. IMO there is not always a good reason for a particular movement and there should not be one eather.
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