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basi to csia convert, level 3 technique

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
hey guys,
I wanted to know a little about the csia technique required at level 3 standard...specifically rotation+separation. I have a basi 2(the old basi 3!) and i have skied with some csia level 3's and 4's and a french level 4 this season in training sessions and they have all pointed out issues with my hips. They've said that first off im not equal on both sides with my hip rotation, but also that i am opening my hips into the next turn too early, almost anticipating the turn too much. I haven't had time to ask the trainers in detail about this so i thought id ask here. When in the turn should i be opening my hips up to the hill(separating) and how does this change/vary with turn size and snow conditions? Im confused!
post #2 of 23
Greetings Danny - welcome to EpicSki!

In the US we talk about creating counter through the end of the turn so that the hips will be pointed inside of where the new turn will be going. I think this means the same thing as when you say open your hips. It's hard to imagine what "too early" would be unless you're doing that above the fall line, that is, using that hip rotation to help start or complete the current turn versus setting up for the next one. It is possible that you can "counter" too much. If you could post video, we could help you better.

An important point about counter is that it is not rotating the hips so much as it is having the lower body turn more than the hips turn. In very short radius turns, the hips stay in the fall ine all the time and don't turn at all. As turns get larger the hips will turn more away from the fall line, but still less than the skis are turning away from the fall line. Approximately when the skis are in the fall line, there should be zero counter (hips and skis pointing the same direction). Approximately when the skis are most across the fall line is when the difference between the difference in direction should be greatest. Between those two points the change in difference should be smooth and continuous.

Does that help?
post #3 of 23
The amount and timing of separation is in relation to speed, turn shape, sidecut, pitch, individual build, gender, alignment, preference/goal. In other words it's tough to say "THIS is the amount of separation you need".

It may be better to ask why you need to separate in the first place and then play along the spectrum of rotational movement (from counter rotated to over rotated) and experience the effects.

Lastly, for a carved turn, you need to separate in order to move the joints inside the arc. Since the apex (point of deflection) in most turns will be roughly in the fall line, you will need to separate before then (hint hint hint ).
post #4 of 23
Well generally, our inside half should lead throughout the turn. The important points are the rate we make this happen at and where it happens at with respect to amount in one or both hips. It could very well be that what your trainers are seeing is too rapid of a movement into counter, and/or that you are using the same amount of counter in all your turns with no distinction based on the needs of turn dynamics. Using up your range of motion early in the turn (too much counter too early) can lock up your hips (rotational movement in the hips stops) and interfere with your ability to develop edge angles with the feet and legs as well as your ability to steer the skis effectively.

The imbalance from side to side may be something you can work off the snow as well as on. On the snow do what jdistefa said and play with varying the rate, amount, and timing of your countering movements. And not only play with both legs turning under your pelvis, but also the movement of the pelvis relative to your outside ski foot and leg.
post #5 of 23
Upper body (ie: hips) should face the "direction of momentum" in order to maintain rotational balance... if you want the straight CSIA lingo.
post #6 of 23
Skinerd, What does CSIA mean by 'Rotational balance'?

.ma
post #7 of 23
The CSIA talks about four planes of balance... fore/aft, lateral, vertical, and rotational. These relate to the 5 skills; Stance & Balance, Pivoting, Edging, Pressure Control, and Timing & Coordination.
Rotational balance is related to the skill of "pivoting" which is essentially turning with the lower body (ie. rotating femur in the hip socket).
post #8 of 23
Interesting. I've never heard of Vertical balance.

Rotational Balance generally means that a rotating body is balanced on either side of the axis such that it doesn't 'wobble' off-center.

Not sure how that would apply to skiing (although I do see a lot of wobbly skiers trying to turn ).

.ma
post #9 of 23
Michael,

The CSIA philosophy is based on "movement in motion". In other words you have to move in all 4 planes to stay in balance with a sliding platform.

So - the term vertical 'balance' is really a misnomer. It should really be vertical ROM (coupled with fore/aft ROM) as way to stay in balance.

Rotational motion/balance can refer to segments (i.e. femoral rotation in the hip socket), but in CSIA lingo, this generally refers to the spectrum of counter/separation/square/rotated.

Disclaimer: All this coming from a coach .
post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 
thanks for all your replies! Its getting alot clearer for me now in relation to csia lingo and requirments! It seems after hearing skinerd I need to swallow a csia manual or two.
I do have a couple of vidoes I could post, if i could just figure out how to...
(and thanks for the welcome rusty!)
post #11 of 23
Thanks jdistefa. I figured it was an adaptation of some sort.

Also a bit curious about 'moving in 4 planes' since there are only 3 physical planes in 3-dimensional space. Where in Canada did they find a Fourth Plane? I thought the scary new Hadron Mega-Collider was built in Europe...
( )

.ma
post #12 of 23
LOL

Fore-aft
Vertical
Lateral
Rotational

Obviously fore-aft and vertical are in the same 'plane', hence why they are paired together mechanically.

There are advanced experiments ongoing in Canada in pickup hockey leagues across the country with drunk players colliding. You never know when science will take a giant leap forward....
post #13 of 23
Are there not 5 planes/modes of balance, the fifth being "recovery"? (Usually hiding from sunlight in the morning after a "hockey" game.)
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Are there not 5 planes/modes of balance, the fifth being "recovery"? (Usually hiding from sunlight in the morning after a "hockey" game.)
LOL... 5th plane = oh SHIT
post #15 of 23
Thread Starter 
finally got a video of myself. Its on a steeper section of a blue run at cypress mt, vancouver. Im on Rossignol 9x oversize with atomic hawx 110 boots.
I think my pole plants are a little eratic, especially my left arm. Also i think the rotation problem is on my turn to the left(skiers left).
I went on a training session last night(followed by too many beers) and i was also told that a ski bow-legged and the boots may need cant/cuff adjustment. can you see that here?
What do you guys think? Any thoughts would be great!
Thankyou

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=hbhWIbgEEpA
post #16 of 23
Good skiing

Agree - you need more separation. Bracage, hockey stops, and use of the pole plant to 'block' the body from rotating at the end of the turn would all be helpful approaches.

Hard to comment about alignment with short turns/steeper hill/soft snow. Better to assess with linked carved turns on groomed terrain.
post #17 of 23
It looks like your feet are getting caught behind you a bit towards the end of your turns which could be causing the rotation. Move your feet forward through the turn especially the outside foot (pretend your telemarking).
post #18 of 23
Thread Starter 
having the feet get left behind a little would cause too much ankle flex as well right? (if there is such a thing as that)
post #19 of 23
Yes... well, actually too much ankle flex would cause the feet to be left behind.
post #20 of 23
It's a common pattern to rotate, over-drive the ankle/knee, and lose the tail of the ski.

Keep it simple - work on separation and as skinerd suggested, work on the feeling of 'kicking the ball' through the end of the turn with the outside foot.

You're skiing well already, it will only get better .
post #21 of 23

Hi Danny,

 

I tripped on this topic by mistake.

 

I just came out of the Level IV course in Sun Peaks. I watched your video many times to best answer your question.

 

On day 4 we have a subject to talk about in front of the class... my was the 4 planes of balance. So here's my text that was very well received by my class mates and course conductors.

 

Using Planes of Balance to analyze skiers


 

Skiing is mainly about balance, glued with good timing, which can produce great results.


 

When I look at a my students, I look first at balance. How do they balance on their skis ?


 

In order to find out, the 4 planes are good analysis tools to see if the mass is moving properly in relation to the base of support. The four planes are:

  • Fore/aft

  • Vertical

  • Lateral

  • Rotational


 

The Fore-aft plane is mainly used to maintain proper body alginment on the skis. In the forward and backward manner, if the skier is moving well, he/she will stay in the center of the ski. Pure balance!


 

The Vertical plane, is well acheived when the skiers maintain an equal joint bending (tall or small) at all time through-out the turn. For an expert skier, it is useful in the bumps to control mass fluctuation and contact with the snow. A key movement for pressure control.


 

The Lateral plane is the performance one! Better the skier is, more lateral movement is involved. Using inclination and angulation to control edge angle on the snow and direct/control pressure to deflect the mass.


 

The Rotational plane, using the lower body to turn. When this is hapenning, we can see a separation created from the bottom up, this effort should be consistent throughout the entire turn. As a result, the skier will face his line of travel and be naturally aligned.


 

Mix it up and keep moving on the 4 planes of balance!

 

To go back at your issue, your rotation which is seend at the bottom of your run is a sympthom of a fore-aft issue and late timing of the impulse. The telemark turn describe above would be something to try as well as releasing out of your turn earlier. It will allow you to engage earlier as well. Try to feel more the arch/heel area of your outside foot as you steer just below the fall line.

 

Hope it helps.

 

post #22 of 23

Hi Danny,

 

I tripped on this topic by mistake.

 

I just came out of the Level IV course in Sun Peaks. I watched your video many times to best answer your question.

 

On day 4 we have a subject to talk about in front of the class... my was the 4 planes of balance. So here's my text that was very well received by my class mates and course conductors.

 

Using Planes of Balance to analyze skiers


 

Skiing is mainly about balance, glued with good timing, which can produce great results.


 

When I look at a my students, I look first at balance. How do they balance on their skis ?


 

In order to find out, the 4 planes are good analysis tools to see if the mass is moving properly in relation to the base of support. The four planes are:

  • Fore/aft

  • Vertical

  • Lateral

  • Rotational


 

The Fore-aft plane is mainly used to maintain proper body alginment on the skis. In the forward and backward manner, if the skier is moving well, he/she will stay in the center of the ski. Pure balance!


 

The Vertical plane, is well acheived when the skiers maintain an equal joint bending (tall or small) at all time through-out the turn. For an expert skier, it is useful in the bumps to control mass fluctuation and contact with the snow. A key movement for pressure control.


 

The Lateral plane is the performance one! Better the skier is, more lateral movement is involved. Using inclination and angulation to control edge angle on the snow and direct/control pressure to deflect the mass.


 

The Rotational plane, using the lower body to turn. When this is hapenning, we can see a separation created from the bottom up, this effort should be consistent throughout the entire turn. As a result, the skier will face his line of travel and be naturally aligned.


 

Mix it up and keep moving on the 4 planes of balance!

 

To go back at your issue, your rotation which is seend at the bottom of your run is a sympthom of a fore-aft issue and late timing of the impulse. The telemark turn describe above would be something to try as well as releasing out of your turn earlier. It will allow you to engage earlier as well. Try to feel more the arch/heel area of your outside foot as you steer just below the fall line.

 

Hope it helps.

 

post #23 of 23

Danny How did it go?

Is the balance better now?

SkiPresto

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