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Ethics & the Exam - Page 2

post #31 of 75
Originally posted by EyeHateModerators:
Skiing is my life, I was named after a mountain, born on the mountain and will die on the mountain. The "other forum" is a forum where people base their happines not on the level of certification they have achieved and how much money they make, they enjoy the things in life that no amount of money could ever buy: family, friends, humor, humility and the undying love for skiing.[/QB]

Sounds like you might be a second generation trustafarian. I base that purely on the born on, named after, plan to die on.
Where does humility fit in with the ski coaching and forerunning?

A Yellow Dog Democrat
post #32 of 75

How do you make this certification/money nexus? It simply makes no sense.

Show me a ski instructor with a wife and kid that can make a July ski trip and I'll show you the statement from a trust officer. Most ski instructors are painting, driving nails, or landscaping so that;

1) Their wife and kids can eat

2) They can teach the sport they love in the winter

As a child.....who taught you? Was it a money/certification loving ski instructor?

The globe trotting maggots. How do they pay for these July trips. I can't afford it unless it would involve a trip to A-Basin.

I glanced at "the other" forum. Let's be realistic. Eight out of the first ten skiers shown on your link state they are high school or college students! Mom and dad are footing the bill. The first starts out by saying he grows pot. I think he was kidding. I suppose that would pay for a July ski trip. I glanced at a post from a former epic ski participant who now is at the other forum. It was so bizarre even the maggots were making fun of the guy and asking about his drug of choice. It made Jim Morrison seem lucid

I have to be honest. At age 48 I don't try to be best buddies with high school students. I remember what I thought about guys my age when I was eighteen. I also don't have a great deal in common with the average college student. How many high school kids know Jim Morrison.

Now, having said that we all love skiing. Eighty percent of those maggots are eventually going to get the boot out of the basement by the parents. They are going to have to figure out a way to stay on the mountain. Ski instruction is one avenue.

Let me let you in on a dirty little secret. You can eschew any PSIA certification and make $8.00 an hour. You can obtain your level III cert and make $16.00 an hour.

I know an instructor with an A.B. degree from Princeton. She is 35 years old. Teaches skiing in the winter and mountain biking in the summer. She is one of the finest athletes that I have ever known and is by far the best teli skier in this area. She is perpetually broke and has always avoided anything to do with PSIA. She is finally getting tired of $8.00 per hour and is rethinking her altruism.

Having described her cv I might as well have said her name. Hi Cath!

You write well and seem like a nice guy. If you are a student we just have a little generational gap. I'd feel a little silly "hanging out with you bro".

[ July 05, 2003, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #33 of 75
>>>You have solidified my point exactly. Real Estate?! Plastic Surgery?! This is what you compare skiing to!! <<<

Young man, I have compared SHOP TALK among instructors to the above. Please don't compare shop talk among ski area workers to skiing.

You know the lifties and the groomers and the snowmakers all discuss among themselves about how to better handle traffic or groom better or make better snow. Like ski instructors, they are employed by the ski area and the certified snowmaker who has factory training in making snow and repair the machines when they break down, and the liftie who can climb the tower and fix a shive will make better money than the non-trained.

What has that to do with their skiing or YOUR skiing? Nothing. Like instructors, those folks seperate the business side from the personal side when skiing.

I'm sure the coaches you said you had were qualified and I'm equaly sure that they got their saleried job as coaches after passing some test. But I'm not sure if you based your judgement on the instructing business on said coaches who never really enjoyed skiing unless they were paid, huh?

post #34 of 75
Thread Starter 
The money and the pro deals are the rub, aren't they? If not, we instructors would also be pure. The national patrollers are pure, though they tend to be marginalized as the Dudley Dorights of skiing. PSIA is the Evil Empire and certified instructors have been duped into pimping for the NSAA and SIA in exchange for shiny pins.

How can instructors call themselves "passionate" when they are being paid for it? It's like a two-bit whore saying she just falls in love easily.

Well, that's one version of the story, I suppose. But Rusty's version is more on the money, from my experience and acquaintance with ski instructors over the years. Most can't hang in longer than 4-5 years. They have this life experience and then they move on to real jobs and real life and squeezing skiing into the margins.

I don't see why good skiers who choose not to teach have such a chip on their shoulder about the good skiers who choose to teach. I hear strains of this on EpicSki frequently, and it seems to be a chorus over at powdermag, a site I seldom visit unless a refernce to a post is made here. It's too stimulating, I guess.

EyeHateModerators--am I right to suppose that the chip is about the money? Do you have any idea what kind of money we're talking about? If you considered what Brittney Spears declared as income on her 2002 tax return and turned that completely around, you would have some idea of the amount of money that the purity argument considers taintable. I'll tell you what, t'ain't much.

Roto, maybe I was overstating a bit. Old rhetorical trick. But, the particular case that inspired the initial post is true, happened recently, and did make the little hairs on my arms stand up.
post #35 of 75
Eyehatemoderators signature:
Moderators must be Republican

The previous posts were paid political anouncemounts by the National Democratic Commitee, and thus should be treated as spam, and responded to accordingly.

Back to our regularly scheduled program! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #36 of 75
I made 5k working full time in the ski industry last year. Included in my income disclosure is the money I made selling skis for Fischer and I was third in sales for the region. $75.00 a day is a good day at Eldora.

I'm headed to the mall today with my daughter where you'll find us in Claires. For $5.00 she can feel like Imelda Markos in a Ferragamo store.

If I'm a whore....it sure is a two bit, crack smoking, toothless, worn out, faux fur, bleary eyed, street walking old hag.

Oh well, the business is good when the cars stop in the parking lot.


[ July 05, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #37 of 75
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
If I'm a whore....it sure is a two bit, crack smoking, toothless, worn out, faux fur, bleary eyed, street walking old hag.
Yeah, but I bet you have a big heart. And you look like you're having way too much fun in those pictures. [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #38 of 75
>>>I made to comparrison because Ott Gangl compare skiing instruction a merely a way to make money comparitive to real estate. (I think he is lying in his above post<<<

Oh boy! A little education wouldn't hurt you, then you could read any sentence correctly and not imply something that isn't there.

You read the sentence of my post since you quoted it, and nowhere do I compare ski instruction as merily making money.

I was comparing SHOP TALK , for your information shop talk is when people in a profession compare notes, and as in this forum, try to end up with a better product. That is what I compared to talk among professionals in real estate or actually any profession.

And since you disdain any ski professional who get paid MONEY and PERKS, and you do not include yourself in this catergory, IF you ever become a pro skier you better turn down ANY compensation offered you.

And if you DO take compensation, money or otherwise, from the ski industry, then you are just one of us and your posts are just so much blabbber.

post #39 of 75

First of all I have skied with Ott. I skied with him for one glorious day. I will tell you it was a day I'll treasure for the rest of my life. He is everything a skier wants to be when he grows.....mature. He is,in a word, a good guy.

Ski instruction is one way to be on the mountain. There are various options. Please don't disdain ski instructors simply for what they do. If they are rude, unkind, whatever that's a different story.

I've gotta add one more thing. Last year a friend of mine whipped out a video camera and shot a little footage. I looked at mine and without any exageration, looked at the film, and wondered who is the old bald guy making the slow-ass turns. It was me. Growing old is an eye opener and yes, having seen the video, I decided it was time to up the dose of metamucil and put a little more zip in my turns.

In short, as much as you don't think it will happen to you, old age is one of two alternatives. Warren Miller says we only have a finite number of bump runs.

I hope we get to make a few turns together some time. Just go easy on us old guys.

Lastly....yes this forum can be like watching paint dry.

Can we go back to talking about exams? I'm going to work towards my trainer accred this season. I'm trying to think of the deviant things this old to bit whore would do to pass.

[ July 05, 2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #40 of 75
Having sat on my last post for the past thirty seconds.....I was always somewhat saddened that while in uniform as a traffic cop I only was offered one overt bribe. Won't say whether it was money, drugs, or a booty call.

Any examiners been offered a bribe?
post #41 of 75
OK, anyone else laughing over this nonsense about ski instructors being in it for the money.

Yea, sure, what money??? :

I coached full time for 20 years and did it IN SPITE OF THE LACK OF MONEY it provided. If I hadn't worked my a** off in the summer I couldn't have even afforded to devote all of my time to coaching in the winter. Sure it provided great personal reward, some selfish, some not, but those rewards had nothing to do with money. The overriding motivation for my willingness to forgo pursuit of a big money career and be a lowly race coach was my intense love of the sport, my wanting to be involved in it on a daily basis, and my desire to give back to the sport and help others discover and experience all the joys and rewards of a life long journey with skiing. I suspect these motivations are shared by most full time ski instructors/coaches.

If making such financially sacrificial life choices is not evidence of having intense passion for the sport then what is, thou young mountain lover. :

[ July 05, 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: FastMan ]
post #42 of 75
Thanks, guy, you made the blood flow a little faster in this old body for a while .

I'm having fun, skiing and otherwise, all the time, but in measured doses. You know, too much fun all at once could kill you [img]smile.gif[/img]

And Rusty, the same here, skiing with you and Bob is a memory I treasure. Hope you are healing OK after your knee surgery. Do your therapy religeously, it pays off.

post #43 of 75
Thread Starter 
There are three plots in fiction: 1) Cinderella, 2) Leave home, discover yourself, and 3) A stranger comes to town.

In the current tale, a stranger comes into a forum titled Technique & Instruction and complains that it is too technical and instructional and not enough fun. As the author of the opening question of this thread, which was clearly a thinly veiled attempt at bringing more SEX into the forum, I'd like to thank the interloper for helping that theme develop from sex & the shiny new pin to ski instructors as two-bit crack whores. Way to go!

I do have one question. Why this desire to make EpicSki more Powdermag-like? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of each one's existence--to appeal to a certain group of skiers, who will support it and keep it going with their chatter? Differentiation is what it's all about, seems to me.

EyeHate, you write like an educated person but your thinking is handicapped by all the beans you have in your ears.
post #44 of 75
Ironic, Nolo, don't ya' think? On the one hand, you have someone with a sig file that says "Moderators must be Republican" implying the misconception that republicans are control freaks {but lets not go there!}, but on the other hand, they find it totally acceptable to "invade" another forum and try to get its content to conform in a way that they would find acceptable.

Now who is the REAL control freak?

It is insignificant that he is attacking you folks for acceepting payment for your services. It would not matter if you were making 1.00 an hour! For someone so utterly caught up in the rhetoric of his politics, unless you were giving free lessons to prison inmates, whilst charging the rest of the population {except him of course} double as a means of financing it, you are evil capitalist pigs, or "whores', as he puts it. [always interesting how the left loves the use of sexist language, eh?}

There is an episode of the Twilight Zone where a girl is on the operating table, her face totally bandaged. You do not see the faces of the doctors. She is supposedly horrifically ugly, and needs surgery.
But the surgery fails.
When the bandages come off, you see that she is beautiful. The doctors, nurses and the rest of the population, are grotesque.
Leftalitarians love to spread the ugliness, either physically, emotionally, or intellectually.

[ July 06, 2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Lisamarie ]
post #45 of 75
The dictum, "avoid all appearance of impropriety applies here."

post #46 of 75
nolo sez: I don't see why good skiers who choose not to teach have such a chip on their shoulder about the good skiers who choose to teach. I hear strains of this on EpicSki frequently, and it seems to be a chorus over at powdermag

I'll take a stab at this:
Could it be that the "core" skiers, having made all kinds of sacrifices so that they can ski 200 days a year, resent the implication (represented by instructors) that 10-15 day per year tourist skiers can reach their level of "expertise" by merely paying for lessons?
Especially when it seldom works that way?
post #47 of 75
milesb, I haven't run across any 15-day-anually skiers who think they can reach the level of a 200-day skier. That's pure paranoia on the part of those that ski seven days a week for six and a half month :

The only 200-day-a-year skiers I know are the instructors who teach the season here or in Europe and then go to Portillo, Chile and teach another season there, and naturally, the national ski team.

I see quite often in the porofiles here where the claim is skiing 100 days a season. That is skiing five days a week for four and a half month. Unless they work on the mountain, I don't see how they support themselves.

post #48 of 75
Thread Starter 
Who sez 10-15 days of skiing a year is sufficient for "expertise"? I see my students for 20 hours of instruction a season, 2 hours per week over 10 weeks, and these are core skiers who make sacrifices to ski 3-5 days a week. (Sacrificing time, because money is not a critical issue with these folks.) They could teach skiing but they choose to take lessons instead, though some of my students have gone on to become instructors when I tell them that the fastest way to expert skiing is to join a ski school.

It's the same situation with golf as in skiing. Most people choose not to take lessons. Only 20% of recreational golfers ever break 100. I'll wager that a healthy percentage of those golfers take lessons from time to time, because what you can learn in six months of dedicated practice, a pro can teach you in five minutes (Harvey Penick).

For most skiers and golfers, disdain for lessons almost guarantees mediocrity at the game. Lessons are not expensive if the investment pays off.
post #49 of 75
Or perhaps the attitude of "all I need are lifts (optional) and snow" relegates instructors to the same category as ski valets, grooming, tissue holders, chair bars, etc. In other words, stuff that the resort adds to make skiing more tame.
post #50 of 75
miles, as you probably know from my Sigi stories a big weekend skiing in the big moutains involved four hours of hiking up on Saturday afternoon and ONE run down on Sunday morning. It was great fun then because the cameraderie was more inportant than the skiing, but I would not want to go back to those days.

Without lifts, grooming and instruction for the novices the skiing industry would go belly up. We are just too spoiled. Ski touring in the high country is the last pure skiing adventure left.

If skiers had to hike up the Bagaboos instead of taking a helicopter they would be left untracked. Besides where would novices go to learn? Or just slug along in ungroomed mashed potatoes on their own only to never come back.

If Dan Egans mountain succeeds in summer skiing, pretty soon skiers will only want to ski in temps above seventy degrees.

I can't hardly wait

post #51 of 75

I have been reading these last several posts with great interest and some dismay. I think all of you are somewhat correct in your assumptions regarding the distain sometimes thrown the way of instructors even though I struggle to make such connections. People, however, are going to feel the way they feel with good reason or not. Dispite the fact that I think you are correct in your assumptions, I want to take the time to say that there are many of us who feel you guys play an important part in the sport of skiing, particularly to those like myself who are new to the sport. I can't speak for all, but I appreciate your efforts both on the hill and in this forum and I'm sure others feel the same way. The simple fact that you care enough to even discuss the situation speaks volumes as to your dedication to the sport.

As to the other forum, it is what it is and there is no question, from my one or two visits there as a result of links posted here, that it's quite different from EpicSki. I kind of look at it like a radio station, if I'm not fond of it or it doesn't fit my needs, I simply don't tune in. [img]smile.gif[/img] There is certainly room for both in the world of skiing.
post #52 of 75

You are kind to say those nice things. Let's face it. The plain and simple fact is it is fun to see a light go on or something click with a student in any endeavor. The resulting smile or word of thanks is a mighty reward. It would be nice if instructors could make a decent living.


I spent a little time at "the other" forum and don't pretend to understand what makes a few of those folks tick. I think part of it involves age and the desire to be exceedingly "hip". There is slang utilized that takes a little while for me to grasp. As EyeHate said, to a large degree it involves the "stoke"....I think I got that right. Is it stoke,toke, poke, or all three?

I feel as though EyeHate is a bright guy (I somehow assume he is a he) and I think he has come to understand the difference between the two groups. I can somehow imagine how "the others" feel about the discussions that take place here. One thing strikes me. The vast majority are on skis that only vaguely resemble the equipment I prefer. It is damn near another sport.

Let's face it, we also utilize a slightly different lexicon.

Rock on Garth

[ July 06, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Rusty Guy ]
post #53 of 75
OK....here is one more difference between an 18 year old and a 48 year old. It's 0800, I'm sitting at the keyboard thinking about the "to do" list my wife has just slapped down on the desk, and EyeHate and his peers have already turned their attention to the fairer sex.

EyeHate....perhaps you should have said well endowed or buxom, nubile, or try a "willowy lass".
post #54 of 75
Thread Starter 
Internet infractions are a new area for all of us. One man's hijack is another man's humor. Hooters is a funny word that makes us all giggle and laugh, which is a good thing to do to chill out.

EyeHate, I made the first post because I was concerned that divisions don't have provisions to assist personnel in avoiding the appearance of impropriety in the exercise of their powers. Some would say it's a given that examiners would recuse themselves from examining friends, family, and sexual relations.

I also thought that a topic with SEX in it would liven up the crowd. I have to thank you for rescuing it from the fate of Grandpa's mole. :
post #55 of 75
so nolo....in the words of Emerill.....re kicking it up a notch

Ever hear of a bribe?
post #56 of 75
Thread Starter 
No, I haven't heard of a bribe, but I have heard of some tantalizing propositions not involving money.

I wonder how many examiners have been flattered by a cute candidate's crush on them or who ever developed a crush on a sexy candidate themselves?

I'll bet every examiner could tell a few stories from both sides of that fence.

[ July 07, 2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #57 of 75
Originally posted by nolo:

Roto, maybe I was overstating a bit. Old rhetorical trick. But, the particular case that inspired the initial post is true, happened recently, and did make the little hairs on my arms stand up.
Actually I think it's funny because it plays out more than a lot of people figure. Seen it happen some. But what they hell. Yeah I think it's sh!tty but whatcha gonna do? This kinda thing goes on in all workplaces, Some peope spend more time with their co-workers than family. I suppose it's always rankled me to see someone use their 'position' at work or in a field of work as a farming tool though, not that they are really that concious of doing so.
post #58 of 75
[quote]Originally posted by EyeHateModerators:
Originally posted by Ott Gangl:
[qb]>>> I understand you can't act vulgar in front of your rich Texans in your private lesson, but you don't have to live that way. Thats what's great about the internet you can speak freely with out the dangers of getting your ass kicked.
Actually Texans (Rich or Not) tend to enjoy a little vulgarity. Of course it's all in the timing, whether it' gets you fired or not.
post #59 of 75
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
OK....here is one more difference between an 18 year old and a 48 year old. It's 0800, I'm sitting at the keyboard thinking about the "to do" list my wife has just slapped down on the desk, and EyeHate and his peers have already turned their attention to the fairer sex.

EyeHate....perhaps you should have said well endowed or buxom, nubile, or try a "willowy lass".
I hope the next 10 years aren't that hard on me! My attention usually turns toward the fairer sex around 0600; unfortunately the fairer sex usually tells to fuhgettabotit and go take a shower.

As a member of the POWDER board (well somebody had to say it), I'm going to say that EyeHateModerators is probably closer to 28-30 than 18; and I'm going to have to stand up for my fellows. There are a lot of highly educated (engineers, chemists, IT professionals, dentists , attorneys, and lowly accountants like myself) people represented there. There are also many college students and a few high-schoolers there.

The average age that has been thrown around here is grossly understated. Most of the members are closer to their mid-to-late 20's. It's a vastly different place than Epic, partly due to the average ages but also due to the lack of moderators. Post whatever you want, in whatever forum you want, and it is there for everyone's response and/or rebuttal. Some of the most intelligent (and well footnoted) political/social/economic discussions I have ever been involved with have taken place on that forum.

Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
The globe trotting maggots. How do they pay for these July trips. I can't afford it unless it would involve a trip to A-Basin.
The vast majority of the folks skiing in July are doing so in their own backyards under the power of their own legs. So the cost is probably around $10 ($5 gas to trailhead and back, $5 six-pack afterwards), hardly economically unattainable for anyone. I have nothing but respect and applause to give to anyone that leaves the trailhead at 6AM hikes and skis several miles, waits at the top of a couloir at 13,000+ ft for the sun to soften the snow, then makes an everlasting memory (complete with pictures for their internet buddies) from the descent. I only wish that it was possible in my backyard. The ones headed to South America are gutsy enough to do it on shoestring budget and rely on their fellow maggots to share in the expenses, and the ones I know going have jobs that they are actually using to purchase their own airfare & accomodations with. (Hey, if any of you have any trustafarian hook-ups and can pay my way down there, by all means feel free. )

I really don't understand the animosity between the two boards, other than where the moderators are concerned. If you come to Epic from Powder you have to mind your manners. If you come to Powder from Epic, realize that Powder is not about skiing on the groomers or railroad track turns. We're all fans of skiing, we just turn in different directions.

Lastly, this is most interesting topic that has occured in the Skiing Instruction & Technique Forum in a long time. I've learned (the hard way, by making an ass of myself from time to time) to ignore the dullness of this forum, but please excuse others that make the same mistake. Unless you are really, really interested in the differences between angulation & inclination, CM's, "Where Does the Turn Begin?", etc. don't bother reading it cuz it will bore you to tears. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ July 11, 2003, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: teledave ]
post #60 of 75
I'm not sure any animosity exists. I know there seemed to be an effort to troll here and the folks that were leading the charge got criticized at powdermag and told to cut it out.

I lurk "over there" every once in a while and enjoy it. Isn't that what it's all about?

I too applaud the skinner's, climbers, and trekkers who travel on a shoestring budget.
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