or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

straight to shaped - Page 2

post #31 of 50
The more I read about shaped ski techniques the more I wonder if those skiers were ever really very good straight ski skiers.
The statement "now you just roll" leads me to believe that someone has never experienced that on straight skis. In fact, my euphoria for skiing (on firm straight skis) is when it works as simply as that, with nothing much more than knee rolls to tackle some steep hard pack. Letting the arc of the ski (the flexed curve of an edged ski, rather than the curve of the edge alone) do all of the work, happily rebounding into the next roll, shoulders square to the fall line throughout.

I am exploring shaped skis for future purchase (for more variety and fun) and am coming to some early opinions, which I admit may be wrong through ignorance, but I still feel are valid views of a dedicated and skilled straight skier. I would welcome any comments setting me straight (so to speak) or in agreement.

I am 6'0", 215 lbs. Skied for 35 years. Expert carver but never a mogol master and I prefer steep hard pack.
My current straight skis are Volkl ExplosivRS (GS) skis at 207cm.

I tried a pair of Volkl T50 SuperSports recently at 175 cm.
To me they seemed squirrely. They were very easy to ski, in that they were very forgiving and easy to turn in a variety of ways, and reminded me most of a pair of Rossignol Freestyles I had in the late 70s. A light easy ski to move any which way through most conditions. However. I was unable to execute even one true carving turn. I was unable to set an early front edge to begin a carve. This left me with a insecure feeling, as the front edge connecting is a necessary step in a sucessful straight ski carve and the feedback from that gives me the confidence that the ski will continue to hold throughout the rest of the turn. Without that reassurance I felt as though the ski would blow out at any time. (It didn't, but I was never on any super hard pack, where that is most significant and likely)

I was told that this is a normal difference in using shaped skis ( though I have yet to be convinced) and have been told that the front edge intiation is no longer required. But that just leaves me wondering if the ski is making a real carve, or just arcing more than average skid skiers did before.

Whenever I read for tips on using shaped skis I get the impression that the skier was not an accomplished straight ski carver and am left unconvinced by their suggestions. I'd like to hear from someone who knows exactly how to carve a straight stiff ski with the least effort and has developed a modified technique for getting the most from shaped skis.

I also demo'd a pair of Volkl P50 Platinums at 175cm. Those were much closer to a straight ski in sidecut and indeed worked with my current carving technique. They were also very forgiving (compared to my VolklRS) and were a nice all around fun ski, especially at such a short length. I'd like to try the P50 slalom and GS Volkls if I can find them available somewhere.
post #32 of 50
HTuttle, I'm copying a post I made in another thread that gave some history and I can explain the difference in carving with the old skis and the new shapes, though there are others in this forum who may do it better, namely Bob Barnes and Robin and a few others.

Quote>>>
Member # 549

posted December 13, 2002 10:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>I'm not sure how one can "carve harder" with feet locked together. Carving requires high edge and body angles, and these are very hard to achieve with your feet locked together.

My personal take: athletes ski with a slightly open, athletic stance who use their edges and body angles to carve turns.
Ballroom skiers ski with their feet locked together and pivot a flat ski for skidded direction changes.<<<

Arby, as an old timer with 57 seasons of skiing under his belt, I'd like to clear up what I perceive to be some misconceptions. They may not be by you specifically, but for younger skiers in general.

In the very old Arlberge technique, skiing was wide stanced but with the very stiff wood skis the initiation required that the skier sank low while winding up the body, then with a powerfull up motion and unwinding of he body the skis came off the snow or nearly so and as the winding motion was blocked it yanked the skis around s the weight came down on them and they turned.

In the late 40s and early 50s the ski technology advanced to where carving was possible and by the 60s all expert skiers could carve.

Now to the crux of the matter. Carving, or even good skiing on the skis of the era required that ALL weight be on the inside edge of the outside ski, and for carving on the edge from under the boot forward to the shovel, the tail could just stutter or skid along. And for that a powerfull forward push on the boot tongue was required which transferred to the tip of the ski after the travel of the shin bottomed.

Imagine an inside ski without any weight on it in a wide stance swimming around and trying to cross the tips or catch an inside edge. ANY weight carried on the inside ski would dimish the capabilities of the outside ski.

Thus came the question of what to do with that weightless ski so as not to have to worry about it. The answer was to put it next to the weighted ski for stability, not locked together by any means, jus held together, and since that ski is advanced a few inches it will not cross since in the front it hit the upturned shovel of the outside ski and at bootside it hit the inside of the boot.

I don't ever remember that being done for effect or 'ballroom skiing' or such.

Since all skiing took place on the inside edge of the outside ski, very high edge angles could be achieved just by letting the inside ski ride up the leg. I often had the edge of the inside ski at boot top or even higher if I wanted to keep it off the snow, but the shovel of that ski always stayed on the snow since we were forward pressuring and it was impossible to lift the shovel off the snow.

With the arrival of the first softer French made skis in the 70s two footed skiing came back into being with weight distribution between skis going to 80-20 or 70-30. Still, a lightly weighted skis could get squirrely so keeping it close helped.

Now we come to shaped and short skis where we can ski a wider stance and not even think about weight distribution which takes care of itself automatically, increasing toward the the middle of the turn and decreasing as we come out of it.

Not thinking of weight distribution is best, since forcing it just screws the skier up. Being centered in all planes at the transition and gradually countering the forces developed during a turn so as not to be thrown off balance in any of the planes is best.

Aren't you glad you didn't live in the good old days of skiing

...Ott ...<<<end quote.

Simply put, by bending both shaped skis via higher edge angle and weighting them in the center the whole edge will engage, not just the front to under the boot as the straight skis did while carving. If you want to tighten the radius you will still need to push on the front of the boot or put the skis on a higher edge angle so thatonly the shovel and the tail grip and you are able to bend the skis more, but that is only if you have pretty good speed on since at slower speed there is not enough oomph to bend the skis on high edge angle.

The bottom line is that carving is carving from an edge holding standpoint, which is really the only reason for a need to carve, especially on steep hardpack, just different techniques have to be used to accomodate the skis. And since the shaped skis lay down more edge in contact, front to back instead of just front to boot, and have more lateral stiffness, they are usually skied in the shorter length. I weigh more than you do and ski a 170.

.....Ott
post #33 of 50
Thanks for that, Ott.
I see from that what the main difference is technically. There are still a few thing I wonder about.

(An Aside: I could always get a ski to arc, even way before I could carve, just by using a softer ski. It would then bend with my weight in a skid and arc, which would make it turn easier. I suppose by a dictionary that would be carving, but once I learned to carve for real I realized what I was missing before. )

Part of the technique of carving steep hardpack is to ensure an early edge set. This is critical as set too late and you blow out (generally). And an early set means engaging the front. What is the equivalent with shaped skis? Do you need to rock the entire ski on edge early to hold throughout, and if so what is the technique for that? If not then does rocking onto an edge at the point the ski parallels the fall line really work? (That would seem to be the average skiers default method, and these things seem designed for them)

As for the one foot/two foot thing from within your post. I've been skiing independent legged for 25 years, and except for a few show-off college years, never cared about having my legs together anyway. While one leg is carving the other is stablilzing and preparing to initiate the next turn and I really enjoy the multiple focus of that. The idea of both equally weighted at all times will take some practice.

Questions:
--At what point do you begin to roll on edge?

--90% of the fun in skiing for me is the physical experience of carving. Do you get the same rebound action and turn to turn flow on shaped skis with a double legged carve?

--Since you are using both skis to carve, they pretty much need to be consistently in the same relative positions?
post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally posted by anotherskidad:
After 30 some odd years on straight skis, I assume it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks. I spent all last winter and my first two trips this year demoing higher end shaped skis preparing to purchase new skis, but I haven't had lessons on shaped skis yet.
What's wrong with what you've got now? If something is actually wrong (i.e. broken), by all means change. But as the old and very wise saying goes... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Are your current skis really all that bad?

I would suggest that if you absolutely feel that you MUST switch to the easier skis, get some that are as close to straights as possible, not because I'm a firm beliver in the old gear (which I am) but because the transition will undoubtedly be easier, and for that matter much easier on your knees. A sudden switch can be very rough on the MCL and LCL, especially when exiting a turn. The things have a tendancy to carve so hard that you get pulled right around at first. If you try to right yourself and go the next turn you could damage your knees (primary reason I still use straight skis, I'm under doctors orders because I play football and can't afford knee injuries) rather painfully. So you should definately try to ease your way in. Look into something like the Volkl P-40. It's kinda halfway between straight and shaped, as are the Saloman GS and Mogul models from the late ninties.
post #35 of 50
Quote:
(primary reason I still use straight skis, I'm under doctors orders because I play football and can't afford knee injuries) from MittersillManiac's post above
That's really funny as I injured my knee a few years ago and my specialist suggested that I switch to a shaped ski.
post #36 of 50
HTuttle, first of all, early edge is, if anything, more important in carving shaped skis that it was with the old ones.

I've always been a rebound skier but as nice and easy as that feels, it is not really necessary anymore since there is no more up/down, no more unweighting and instead of sliding the heels from side to side while unweighted by the rebound, you now just ski them under you with all weight still on them, this way you never lose contact with the snow and rolling from left edges to right edges and back is easy and automatic because as your skis come across in front of you, you allow your body to keep traveling downhill and presto, you are on your new edges and they bite since you never took the weight off them.

So the flow is nice because the edges are always engaged save for the split second during transition. The new skis have a wide tail which follows the tip while carving 'railroad tracks', something that does not happen with the narrow tail of older skis.

It takes some getting used to because we are giving the skis too much info if we ski them like the straight ones. Less is more with these, just put them on edge and they will start turning without hard input, matter of fact if they are overpowered they are hard to get off a carve, I think a lot of the accidents that happen with the new skis is that during a carve the skier gets in the back seat and since the tails refuse to skid the ski keeps carving and the skier can't get back over it to flatten it out.

Anyway, before going on the steep with them feel them out gently on flatter terrain and instead of shifting weight just turn, the weight will shift more to the otside ski during the turn all by itself.

...Ott
post #37 of 50
Okay Ott,
Some of that is familiar techinque anyway. As a skier unconcerned about parallel skis, the textbook upweight goes a bit different for me. My inside ski is on the snow, redirected and ready for weight and edge while my outer ski is rebounding (for the earliest edge possible). The rebound is more of a shift from one to the other for me, so I'm usually always on the snow as is (but with only one leg). And the upper body motion downhill to activate the edges is a standard part of my technique, especially on the steeps.

The weird thing about the technique as you describe it is the weighted double ski crossing under. That actually reminds me of a technique I toyed with (for esthetic reasons solely) back in the 70's. The sit-back, knee-up, wiggle-under thing which looked real cool but was a horrible ski method (Do you remember JetSticks?). It took me quite a while to rid myself of all remnants of that limiting method and I'm not so sure I can convince my body that now it is okay to do! (Granted it's not exactly the same thing)

With your description I think I have a better visualization of what should be happening. I'll try again next time out. (And hope I don't revert to that long ago ridiculous sit-back thing!)
post #38 of 50
>>> As a skier unconcerned about parallel skis, the textbook upweight goes a bit different for me. My inside ski is on the snow, redirected and ready for weight and edge while my outer ski is rebounding (for the earliest edge possible).<<<

That's the classic rebound stem christy, very effective but not new shaped ski technique. If I understand you right, you do not check with a hard edge set at the end of the turn with BOTH skis downhill but rather abstem with a hard edge set only with the downhill ski leaving the uphill ski flat on the snow.

As you rebound from your lower ski it shifts weight to your already redirected, 'stemmed' ski. All this needs to go out with the shaped skis. Ski them parallel until you are ready to start the new turn and the just lighten and tip downhill your DOWNHILL SKI, allowing the new outside ski to follow.

I know it sounds strange but it really works, as Bob Barnes says: Left tip left to go left, right tip right to go right.

And you NEVER sit back, EVER, in any modern ski technique, and yes, I remember the jet turn, an ill conceived thing perpretated by ski poster photographers who's favorite picture was of a skier going over a mogul and shot from below just at the moment the ski tips were up in the air and the skier was squatted.

This was taken as the way to ski by some, never realising that in the next moment the skier would be over the mogul and dip the tips down into the trough and come up to an extended position. The jet turners just stayed dow swiveling their skis trying to keep the tips in the air.

...Ott
post #39 of 50
Quote:

In wind slab do we do retraction turns? Yes.
So what happens after the retraction?
Is this passive retraction?

In wind slab its all active or die ....

Skiing is not about rules ...i.e your statement about passively letting the terrain dictate your moves.

Soemtimes the scientists take over the shop and the customers walk off baffled and confused AND this is not about ski sape either so leave the carved\straight debate out of the "active moves" debate.

If one was a solid technique skier on straight skis then they can transfer to carve skis by just "reblending" thier existing technique.

Oz
post #40 of 50
Ott,
Indeed, I learned the pitfalls of sitting back from those early days, and the learning involved to overcome that bad habit actually took me through the biggest skill advance of my ski career.
As for the stem christie, no it's just an independent leg action, the ski is not actively on the snow. As you state in your first long post, the unweighted ski is left to do other things during a carve. ("Thus came the question of what to do with that weightless ski so as not to have to worry about it") In your post you cite that most skiers pull it parallel and hold it there, I just take advantage of the available ski and prepare in advance for an early edge. (Look at old photos of Ingemar Stenmark for clear examples of this.) If I choose to I could keep the ski along side the downhill one, but would rather advance toward the next turn earlier instead. And I do indeed use both skis to make a harder end if I need to from time to time, that ski is free to use however it's needed.

"Ski them parallel until you are ready to start the new turn and the just lighten and tip downhill your DOWNHILL SKI, allowing the new outside ski to follow. -- I know it sounds strange but it really works, as Bob Barnes says: Left tip left to go left, right tip right to go right."

So you actually lead with the current downhill ski? Which means leading with my downhill knee into the desired turn (and away form the uphill knee initially). That does seem backwards from what I do now. I have begun to visualize the constant parallel, both weighted carve technique as you described it so well, and am looking forward to seeing if I can pull it off next time I go.

You've been very helpful.
post #41 of 50
Ok, I'll throw my two cents in here. There's a lot of complicated (sounding) stuff here. You asked a simple question 'what to do to get a jump on your lesson' and I'm going to keep my answer simple.

Get on some nice flat open terrain where speed in not an issue and just roll your knees and ankles to get the skis on edge a hip width stance is going to make this easier. Just wait for it. I see patience as the big secret to carving.

It's not so much what you need to learn but what you need to unlearn. Do not steer, pivot or drive the skis and do not pounce on the front to the ski, stay in the middle. Rolling the ankles and knees to put the skis on edge from the middle of the ski and be patient. Feel the miracle of the ski turning you instead of you turning the ski.

Slowly work to ever steeper terrain and more speed but rounder turns. Always patient and waiting for the ski to turn you instead of you driving the turn. It's perfect if you have a spot that gently and progressively gets steeper. Play with this lots and later on when you traverse or ride long flats play with the egdes and feel the ski work at any speed.

As speed (and forces) increase, again be patient. Don't press on the ski, wait for the ski to come through the fall line and let the ski press at you. Now use the legs to gently control this pressure and allow the ski to come under the body. There are many other things that can enhance or detract from this but seeing what is happening is where that can be worked on and that's what your lesson is for. Doing this should get you the feelings you need to get a jump on your lesson.
post #42 of 50
>>>So you actually lead with the current downhill ski? Which means leading with my downhill knee into the desired turn (and away form the uphill knee initially). That does seem backwards from what I do now. I have begun to visualize the constant parallel, both weighted carve technique as you described it so well, and am looking forward to seeing if I can pull it off next time I go.<<<

As a skier for 35 years and a carver on straight skis you don't need me to tell you how to ski and what works with your straight skis will work with shaped skis, there are plenty of skiers I saw today on the hill who use the old techniques with shaped skis.

It is just that you don't have to anymore, and yes, by just taking the downhill ski at the finish, the ski on the outside of the turn you just finished and bend the knee downhill enough to put you on a new edge on that ski the other ski, now the new downhill ski will follow and as you progress through the turn the weight will shift more to that ski and as you finish the turn the weight will equalize on both skis and you are ready to make the new turn.

There are passive and agressive carved turn on the new skis. What L7 described are good exercises to feel out the possiblities the skis provide. But as a hard skier on steep icy or hardpacked slopes you need to do a little more than wait for the skis natural sidecut to carve you around because those turns are wide even with radical sidecuts and you spend too much time in and near the fall line and gain so much speed which you will have to scrub by continuing you turn more uphill.

To get out of the fall line faster, just a little forward pressure will shorten up your turn as it does with the straight skis but as L7 said, no need to pounce.

I do find though that practicing the just desribed method is easier learned on somewhat steeper terrain, like a blue run, because when you are going too slow, tipping the skis on a high carving edge without falling over is difficult. You sound like high level skier and wont have any problems adjusting to the shapes if you give them a chance.

....Ott
post #43 of 50
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
milesb- Spent the day with two examiners (Bob B and Arcmeister) skiing bumps, short radius, medium radius, and ungroomed stuff at Loveland.

I am of the belief flexion and extension is a RESULT of terrain and not an ACTIVE movement.
Well, I for one was activly doing both, not only in bumps but also when arc'n round turns on smoother terrain. Flexing (aka: avalement or reploiement) from falline into transition as my body and skis paths converge, then activly extending after edge change as they take divergant paths. Could this be just a quirk of my skiing style that I don't really need? (but I like it so I'm doing it anyway)

So I have to ask the obvious: If you let your legs flex as a result of terrain, how do your legs ever get extended again unless you engage some muscular (active) movement?

Was a fun day, Thanks,
RK [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #44 of 50
My suggestion is simple. In a vast majority of circumstances, during the course of a ski turn, one leg is flexing and one leg is extending, and I posit this is due to the angle of the terrain on which we recreate.

Take a simple turn of any description (gliding wedge,wedge christie, open parallel.)From a traverse, the process starts with a tipping movement of the inside foot and a rotary steering of the inside foot, ie., left tip left to go left.The two movements are blended. It's very much a "go there" movement and as Bob describes, intent dictates technique.

In the case of this left turn, there is no need to soften or lift the left leg. Had we been standing on a slope sans skis, we wouldn't have needed to "pick up" our foot to go left. We could pick up our foot. I simply suggest it's not an economical movement. It's wasted motion.

In my example, as this turn to the left proceeds the left leg will flex and the right leg will extend. Why? Because we don't do this on a flat surface. If we did ski in Kansas then we would have to lift, then tip.

Roger, you ski very well and have vast knowledge. I am seeing more and more folks who have been exposed to "lifting or lightening" their inside ski who cannot utilize the uphill edge of their inside ski to carve a turn. The inside ski gets light and in effect disengages. The result is an outside leg with little "tipping" or inclination and a skidded turn.

The crux of my argument is this. Why lift it? Why soften it?

Just tip it!
post #45 of 50
Rusty,
I agree as an end product, just tip or roll it.
In my skiing the flexion or retraction I use is for pressure control and to manage the flow direction of my CM. I usuallt only lift my new inside foot completely off the snow when I want an instantanious weight and total transfer.

There is considerable mis-understanding out there about the functional why's and when's of the lifting of the new inside foot. It is an exercise, not an outcome. A simple clarifcation is "lift to learn, tip to turn". Zooming in reveals that for skiers who habitually use either fulcrum or rotary push-off mechanics to turn their new outside foot/ski first, the lifting of the new inside ski as the first movement precludes this habitual movement by transfering balance completely to that new outside foot/leg and facilitates a focus on learning a more efficient order of movement (i.e. left-to-go-left, right-to-go-right). Lifting (off the snow) is a vehicle to deliver learning, not the destination.

I hope this clarifies my perspective.
[img]smile.gif[/img]
post #46 of 50
Rusty,

Please look on what I am saying here as an observation based on the limited knowledge of a person that can be gained through the reading of that persons posts on a forum such as this.

Much of what you post here and the ideas that underlie it come from others. These people are those who have authority, prestege or longivity in the world of skiing where you live and as a newer instructor (I have in my mind from somewhere that you have been teaching under five seasons but I might be wrong in that) it is very important that you listen to what they say and try everything that they ask you to do. But it is just as important that you question what they say and try the opposite of what they ask you to do. Only then will we hear Rusty's ideas rather than echos of others and it is Rusty's ideas that I want to read about.

If I am totally off base with this then forgive me for being an ass and tell me what you think of me at the Academy.

I choose to post this on the open forum rather than in the form of a PM to Rusty because I want to have all newer instructors that might read it to also "Question Authority". And, Rusty is obviously a big boy who can deal with my comments from the constructive viewpoint which is their intent.

Of course, if I were the clinic leader it would be foolish to question what I say,

Yd

PS I soften the about to be new inside leg to manage the pressure through the 'finish' of one turn and to allow the body to begin to move across the path of the skis into the new turn. Once the new turn is established softening of the inside leg allows my body to drop further into the turn increasing the edge angle of the outside ski and tightening the radius of the turn. This softening can feel like a lifting movement although the ski never leaves the snow surface and the edge of the inside ski remains engaged. For me this is an active movement rather than a passive one.
post #47 of 50
Rusty, your perceptions don't match my own personal experiences. It was only after I learned about and played with the "lift and tip" concept that I was able to progress and learn to ride the "uphill edge of the [new] inside ski" - quite contrary to your implication that lifting and tipping forms a barrier to this. Additionally, lift and tip led me to the ability to easily produce a heavily weighted inside turn (used extensively as I was recovering from hip replacement surgery a couple of years ago - especially my first day back on skis when I met up with Bob Barnes and we skied a few runs together). It also helped me find the key to one footed turns (yes, just an exercise but a valuable one that I could only perform previously by leaning well over my ski).

It has also been previously stated by a number of other participants here at other times that lifting leads to a shifting of the body uphill. Again, not my experience even with dozens of people I've observed working with this. Sure in some cases there may be a slight uphill movement but this is easily corrected very early on and does not continue to reappear.

Bottom line, I for one am convinced that lifting and tipping is the very best "primary" cue I've ever come across. It may only be a beginning point that is soon abandoned (for the most part but with modifications of the concept remaining key) but it sets the stage like nothing else I've ever experienced, observed, taught to others, or read about here on Epic or anywhere else.

[ December 19, 2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Si ]
post #48 of 50
Quote:
Originally posted by Ydnar:

Yd

PS I soften the about to be new inside leg to manage the pressure through the 'finish' of one turn and to allow the body to begin to move across the path of the skis into the new turn. Once the new turn is established softening of the inside leg allows my body to drop further into the turn increasing the edge angle of the outside ski and tightening the radius of the turn. This softening can feel like a lifting movement although the ski never leaves the snow surface and the edge of the inside ski remains engaged. For me this is an active movement rather than a passive one.
Ditto, yup, uhuh, bingo, bullseye, kudos.....
[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ December 19, 2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #49 of 50
Arcmeister- Couldn't agree more, particularly with the "end product" verbiage. In addition, if the softening is an exercise, then I again have to say I agree.

Ydnar- I've been teaching three years. Ninety nine percent of what I have learned I gathered from others, and yes, I typically ski once a week with Bob Barnes. Do I question what he has to say? Not very often because I find his teaching fairly cogent.

Do I think your an ass? Don't be silly.

Simply stated, I have formulated ideas based upon my two years experience and I don't think one has to lighten or soften. That's what makes the world go round. I think a little tipping is all it takes. Did I learn that from Bob. You bet.If softening works for you and it's fun.....I'd keep doing what you are doing.

Si, I would suggest the same for you.If it works great. I'm simply suspect of anything that moves me in any way shape or form laterally. I want to go forward.....not sideways.

I haven't had the opportunity to ski with either of you and I look forward to doing so. I did have the pleasure of skiing with Arcmeister and he is a tremendous skier/teacher. I also suggest he would say I'm able to get around on skis fairly well.

Lastly, I used to have different ideas about flexion and extension. Another examiner in the Rocky Mountain division changed my ideas. If you want to see a montage of her skiing Bob has shots of Jennifer Metz posted here at Epicski. She is known around here as a very good teacher/examiner/bumper!

So......I'm puzzled. Am I to question? Yes of course. I'm simply passing along what I have assimilated and come to believe.

This isn't tearning into a PMTS vs. the world thing is it?
post #50 of 50
Rusty, I hope it's about more than what works for me. I suspect that we don't necessarily disagree all that much on this but rather that we maintain different perceptions of some similar things. I certainly don't try to view this as a teaching system issue. I think it is a discussion about what kind of description or cue works best for someone in order to help them develop their skiing in this particular area.

BTW, in my (albeit limited) experience I have found that, in general, lifting and tipping actually helps people move their body down the hill into the fall line, not laterally or unto the hill.

[ December 19, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Si ]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching