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MA Request

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Sorry for the sun flare and lack of zoom. Hopefully your experienced eyes can help me with your MA. I am still trying to learn to carve properly. I want to keep my CoM moving smoothly through the transition and to avoid skidding. Thanks very much for your help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQs-eq27Uhk&fmt=18
post #2 of 29
Chuck, Aside from the fact that the turns "sound" clean and you appear to be going reasonably fast, you are in the shadows too much to be able to get a clean look at your skiing, sorry.

What I could barely see, and I say this hesitantly because there is not one complete turn in the light; looks like you are banking your turns, almost no angulation. Also looks like you have a bit of a pop extension between turns.
post #3 of 29
As I said in your other posting of this video (for those who didn't follow that thread), look at 9+ seconds and see how your feet are in front of your body. You need to engage the edges on the front half of your skis to carve (or ski well any style). Pull both feet strongly back when the skis are light in the transition and keep pulling the inside foot strongly back all the time in every turn. You'll immediately ski better. (Someone will comment on how forward pressure is as dead as pencil skis. Well...not as much forward pressure is needed all the time on modern skis, but the front half of the skis still must engage the snow. More forward pressure is needed on skis with a big sidecut radius, more is needed to make sharper turns, and more is needed on hard pack. Middle weight distribution is good in the last third of a turn. Sitting back is only needed 0.1% of the time when the skis are entering deeper snow from pack, when approaching a bump or up washboard, or when the deep snow is really heavy and you won't otherwise reach the bottom of the hill.)

How one-footed are you? Try for 90% of your weight on the forward half of the outside ski (in the middle in the last third of the turn) and 10% on the inside ski...or 80/20.

Yes, get Harb's "Essentials" book and the three new DVDs...one out so far, two coming out soon.
post #4 of 29
Sure, why not, Chuck. Go ahead and try it. No harm in trying!

But as I've already replied in your original thread (Driving the skis?), regarding your video clip, SSG and I will disagree on this point of fore-aft. I do not see your "aft" position at that moment in your video clip as necessarily a mistake. Please read the other thread (just click on the link) for my justification.

Furthermore, if you want your skis to carve their best, in any part of a turn, you need to center the pressure over their "sweet spot." It is another long-standing myth, in my opinion, that you should focus your pressure on the forward half of your ski(s) if you want them to carve. The tail needs to bend too!

Indeed, pressuring the tip at the beginning of the turn was helpful on old skis (and still today) if you wanted to get the tails to drift out. It made turn initiations "easier" only if skidding at the start was what you were trying to accomplish (it often was, and sometimes still is). It remains a way to tighten the arc of a turn--but not by improving the carve! Tip pressure (and its obverse--tail "non-pressure") makes the tips dig in and bend more, but it makes the tails relax their grip and straighten out.

Keep in mind that, even if you just want to maintain the pressure centered over the sweet spot, not "forward," you will still need to move your body (center of mass) vigorously down the hill ahead of your feet to accomplish it, as the skis both accelerate (increase speed) and tip downhill to match the hill angle as they approach the fall line. It's like the athletic "dive" forward needed to remain in balance as you explode down the steep start ramp of a race course. I suspect that this forward movement is often mistaken for forward pressure, contributing to the long-standing myth.

Even 15 years ago, before the revolution of "shaped" skis, World, World Cup, and Olympic Champions Phil and Steve Mahre were adamant about this point. "You have to move vigorously forward as you start a turn," they would say. But I recall a conversation with Steve about the distinction between moving fore and aft, and pressuring fore and aft. "Probably 90% of my forward motion at the start of a turn is to remain in balance on my skis," Steve said, "and maybe 10% is to move the pressure point slightly forward." Even on the old long "straight" skis, the need to pressure the tips a lot to enter a turn was more mythology than reality (at least by default)!

I urge you to question everything, as always, but in particular, question and test the "conventional wisdom" that you need to "pressure foward," "bend your boots," "balance on the balls of your feet," "drive your knees forward into your boot cuffs," "pressure your ski tips (exclusively)," or anything similar, by default, in carved turns.

Skis carve cleanest pressured on the sweet spot:



Best regards,
Bob
post #5 of 29
Chuck, you skied on the wrong side of the cameraman. Your fault . Anyway, from what little I see (allmost nothing) Im pritty sure that your problem is how you hook into the carve at the top of your turn. Im presuming that you want carving as in 100% edge locked arching. Start with only one turn on a gentle slope and work your way into linked turns as soon as you feel comfortable with your skis arching. Thats the whole secret. Its not you making your skis turn its the skis making you turn. Not entirely true I know but at some point you have to let your skis do their work and you do yours. Get your skis on edge, let them turn and then you do the balancing. How do you get your ski on edge? Try angulation. Also, as noted before, do not extend at transition. Now you are moving up for the transition and then your skis start skidding. Saw that in your very last turn. Be more patient. Dont go that fast.
post #6 of 29
Thread Starter 
Guys,

Thanks so much for your input. I was disappointed at the quality of the video but decided to post anyway. I am glad I did. Your MAs, especially Bob's detailed and clear explanation, give me a lot of food to chew on before I get to ski again in a few weeks.

SSG - I don't remember if I was trying to move my fore/aft balance to "drive the skis" in this run as suggested in my other thread. I couldn't do it smoothly yet and tended to get behind.

TDK6 - Bob pointed out in the other thread that I should be more patient rather than try to engage the edges and carve too early. You also suggested patience. I am not sure whether you meant patience in the context of learning to ski or carving a turn. My impression is that you think I should get on edge more quickly at the top of the turn. Is that right? (This place is usually very crowded. It was a delight to see an empty slope and to ski faster. I was also trying to "drive" these skis as much as I could.)

I also see from the video my lack of angulation (counter balance?) as many pointed out. I must say this was a surpise to me since I did try to angulate. Need to do more to get the feeling of the afterburner blast.

Many, many thanks!
post #7 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post
TDK6 - Bob pointed out in the other thread that I should be more patient rather than try to engage the edges and carve too early. You also suggested patience. I am not sure whether you meant patience in the context of learning to ski or carving a turn. My impression is that you think I should get on edge more quickly at the top of the turn. Is that right? (This place is usually very crowded. It was a delight to see an empty slope and to ski faster. I was also trying to "drive" these skis as much as I could.)
I ment patient at the top of the turn. Its an old habbit of ours to try to turn the skis at the top of the turn insted of engaging the edges and letting things happen. Once you get a feel for this edge engagement with your skis carving the top of the turn you can start expanding. Bob ment the same thing, do not make any body movements to crank your skis into a new turn. The only thing you need is setting an edge and off you go into the new turn. Outcome depending on your gross inclination and your speed and ski turn radius and snow consistancy and slope pitch....
post #8 of 29
Hi Chuck--

Don't assume that "banking" is always a problem. Here's little clip (sorry--my hosting service limits size to 500KB) of Erik Schlopy that shows the movements I'm describing, and at the same debunks the theory that "banking" is necessarily bad, and that your shoulders should always stay level. Schlopy won this race:



As with any individual clip or image, be careful about thinking that it must represent perfection, and that every turn would or should look like this one. Video rarely shows what "should" be, but it certainly shows what can be!

Best regards,
Bob
post #9 of 29
Here's another image--Frenchman Cyprien Richard, in the same gates as Schlopy. Click on it for a much larger image. Richard also finished well--top 5, if I recall correctly.



It's easy to see the fore-aft movements of his feet in relation to his center--especially in the last three frames.

Best regards,
Bob
post #10 of 29
Bob. ?? Banking should be the exception, not the rule. Cmon dude.
post #11 of 29
And additionally, so long as the shoulders and hips are parallel, that would be more inclination than banking. In the Schlopy animation, the right turn looks distorted due to the shape of the hill, also.
post #12 of 29

Cause & Effect--Nuances of "edging"

BTS683--Banking is neither an exception nor a rule. It simply has effects. So does angulation, "leveling the shoulders," and pretty much any other movement on skis.

It's not until we discuss the effect, and its relationship to the skier's intent, that we can say a movement should, or should not, take place.

In the case of banking (tipping the entire body as a unit) and its complement, angulating (lateral flexing in various joints), they, along with the skier's inclination (leaning, moving the center of mass into a turn for balance) all influence edge angle.


This skier is inclined into a turn for balance. Banking is "inclination without angulation"--leaning the entire body as a unit.

For a given moment in any given turn, there is only one angle of inclination that results in "balance." If you want more edge angle at the moment, you'll need to increase angulation (so you can tip your lower legs more, moving something else--typically your torso--the other way and remain in balance). If you want less edge angle, you'll need to decrease angulation, which means banking.


This illustration shows the "line of action," which indicates the degree of inclination that results in "balance," as a function of the forces of the turn (from the skier's "accelerated frame of reference).

It's that simple. No "rules." No absolute "right and wrong," or "should and should not." Technique is all about cause and effect, making the movement you need to create the effect you want.

And with today's deeply shaped skis, controlling edge angle has become a subtle, refined art. Years ago, it was barely oversimplified to say that when you needed edge angle, some was good, more was better. Not so today! Skis, and their carving ability, are highly sensitive to even small edge angle changes. The higher you tip it (given sufficient pressure on its sweet spot), the tighter it bends. If you need to carve a 15 meter radius turn on hard snow, there is exactly one correct edge angle for a given ski that will do it--and it will be different with a different ski. More angle, or less angle, will either result in a different radius turn, or a less-cleanly-carved turn of your chosen radius.

Finally, remember that angulation/banking don't only affect edge angle on the snow. They also affect edge angle in relation to the "line of action"--the force you apply to your skis, in a line between your balance point and your center of mass. This angle has nothing to do with the skis' carving radius. This "critical edge angle" (Ron LeMaster's term) determines whether your skis will hold or not. This one gets complicated and difficult to explain, but if that angle is acute (less than 90 degrees, resulting from angulation), the skis tend to dig into the snow and hold. If it's obtuse (more than 90 degrees, as when banking), the pressure you apply to your skis tends to push them out of the snow, and they slip or skid (or "release").


Critical Edge Angle--determines whether a ski holds or not, regardless of the skier's inclination and edge angle on the snow.

For relevant discussion of ski technique, speak not of "right and wrong." Speak only of cause and effect!

Best regards,
Bob

"Hell, there are no rules here. We're trying to accomplish something." (--Thomas Edison?)
post #13 of 29
Mdechristopher--Welcome to EpicSki!

At least by my definition (see above), inclination and banking are not mutually exclusive. Inclination means "leaning into the turn for balance," and describes the relation of the center of mass and the feet, regardless of any degree of banking or angulation.

Banking is "inclination without angulation"--the special case of inclining the entire body into a turn as a unit, or sometimes even leaning the upper body (torso) more than the lower body.

Angulation means creating lateral angles in the body (ankles, knees, hips, spine), and also has nothing to do with the degree of inclination. You can angulate when standing vertically, and you can angulate when deeply inclined into a turn. Angulation is highly complex, and commonly poorly understood--especially when you consider that neither the ankles nor the knees are designed to flex laterally (more than once!).

Best regards,
Bob
post #14 of 29
Is banking really an "exception"? Or an error? You decide!













---

Once again, I don't suggest that pictures or video ever necessarily show "what should be," but they certainly show what can be--and what is. Pictures could just as easily show errors. But when you see some of the best skiers in the world consistently violating a tenet of your belief system, contradicting the "conventional wisdom," you have only a few choices. You can close your eyes and pretend you didn't see it. You can cling stubborly to your beliefs and insist that they're all skiing poorly. Or you can question your belief system, and develop deeper understanding.

Question everything! And don't ever believe anything I tell you. But don't believe anything anyone else tells you, either!

Best regards,
Bob
post #15 of 29
Sorry, ChuckT--it looks like we've drifted considerably away from the discussion of your skiing in your video clip. But I hope this discussion of banking--which you do show at times in your video clip--is helpful. Like I said, don't be concerned about banking in and of itself. Tie it to its effect, and "fix" it only if it's causing an effect you don't want!

On the other hand, whenever you notice a "bias" of any sort in your skiing, it makes sense to explore the alternatives. Do practice skiing with greater angulation. Play with leveling your shoulders. Observe the effects. Note the sensations. Practice the movements enough that they become part of your unconscious repertoire of technique, so they'l be there when you need them.

---

I'll add the thought that many of today's skis--especially race skis--are highly specialized and purpose-built, optimized to carve a small range of turn sizes without the need for the extreme edge angles of techniques past. Theoretically (meaning in a perfect turn, on very hard snow, and barring torsional and lateral ski flexing), a slalom ski with a 12-meter sidecut will carve a 6-meter radius turn when tipped 60 degrees to the snow (turning radius = sidecut radius x cosine of edge angle--Tom/PhysicsMan's formula). 60 degrees of inclination is not at all uncommon in a high-performance slalom turn, which means that no angulation would be needed (at that part of the turn), beyond enough to create "critical edge angle."

If you want to make a larger, Giant Slalom-sized turn on those same slalom skis, the last thing you'd want to do is angulate (increase edge angle) even more! So you'd bank, for all you're worth, maintaining just enough angulation to keep the skis clinging to their line. With well setup equipment, that might mean no more than just enough ankle tension to keep the skis at critical edge angle.

It's worth considering that the longest turn a ski can carve cleanly is its sidecut radius. And, since that would require the ski to be flat on the snow, it can't even carve that. Tip it up (and pressure it), and it will bend to a radius tighter than its sidecut radius--according to PhysicsMan's formula above.

Conversely, if you want to carve a short, slalom-radius turn on GS skis, you'll need to tip them more than you would a slalom ski. You can't incline more, so you'll have to angulate more. That might be a good time to "level those shoulders"!

Best regards,
Bob
post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Bob. ?? Banking should be the exception, not the rule. Cmon dude.
When I was skiing with the ESA gang at Stowe, I was following Bob for a bit. I am no expert on banking or angulation, but it looked to me as though he was mostly banking - on that brief stretch. I was suprised.

Since I learned about angulation (Rogan) that's all I ever do Maybe it's time to work a little on banking again, keep the tool box full.

This is a good discussion.
post #17 of 29
Hmm...there was a part of a run at Stowe where I recall playing with almost purely banked turns. I wonder if that was when you followed me, Paul.

Either way, yes, you will find many moments in my skiing that you could describe as "banking." And many others not! Don't forget that at least most of the time at Stowe, I was on race-stock slalom skis. If you were on skis with less sidecut than mine, you would have had to make different movements (more angulation) to carve the same turns.

Best regards,
Bob
post #18 of 29
It's really all about balance. If your desire is to laterally balance in a particular manner, say on your outside ski, then you have no options in the angulation/banking department. The forces created by the turn you're making dictates the amount of angulation you must use. Don't use enough, and you'll find yourself on your inside ski. And of course, it changes throughout the turn, as your edge angle and your orientation to the line of gravity changes.

How do you know if you're looking at banking? Easy. Look at a skier's outside shin. Extend the line of his/her shin. if the skier's head is above that line he/she is anglualted. Below the line and he/she is banked.

Banking will sometimes be seen in WC images early in a turn, as the skier dives into a new turn. Later in the turn they add more edge angle and fold into an angulated position. Seldom are outside ski balance, moderate to high edge angles, and banking compatible. Even at WC speeds you seldom see it. Do pure banking at recreational speeds and you're assured to become very familiar with your inside ski.

One last thing: all angulation is not created equal. It's possible to put the CM where it needs to be to create the state of balance you want via various combinations of angulation. Knee angulation provides the most bang for the buck. In fact, with knee angulation a skier can appear banked (but will fail the shin line test). The problem with knee angulation is that it's a weak position that introduces higher risk of injury. With the straight skis of yesterday, knee angualation was a necessity, because you needed a lot of it to remain in balance. Hip angulation alone just wouldn't cut it.

Now with shape skis we don't need as much angulation, so we have the luxury of using hip angulation as our main method, and using knee angulation as a secondary fine tuning mechanism, or for early turn initiation.
post #19 of 29
Banking - angulation - PHHT....
The true art is using a big tree well at the bottom of a steep to form a banked turn.
post #20 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
Sorry, ChuckT--it looks like we've drifted considerably away from the discussion of your skiing in your video clip. But I hope this discussion of banking--which you do show at times in your video clip--is helpful. Like I said, don't be concerned about banking in and of itself. Tie it to its effect, and "fix" it only if it's causing an effect you don't want!
Bob,

Au contraire, this discussion has been very illuminating for me. I think it will take me quite a lot more skiing to get to the level that I put these ideas in practice, but I very much appreciate the clarity of your thoughts.

Since I get to ski only a few days each season (usually fewer than 10), it's great to have materials like this to really think, visualize and study before going skiing.

Best regards,
Chuck
post #21 of 29
Sounds good, Chuck. Thanks for starting the thread, and providing a good opportunity to discuss these points!

Best regards,
Bob
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
...look at 9+ seconds and see how your feet are in front of your body. You need to engage the edges on the front half of your skis to carve (or ski well any style). Pull both feet strongly back when the skis are light in the transition and keep pulling the inside foot strongly back all the time in every turn. You'll immediately ski better....

How one-footed are you? Try for 90% of your weight on the forward half of the outside ski (in the middle in the last third of the turn) and 10% on the inside ski...or 80/20.

Yes, get Harb's "Essentials" book and the three new DVDs...one out so far, two coming out soon.
ChuckT,

Pulling feet back

I want to echo SoftSnowGuy. I've done a lot of working on pulling my feet back assertively, based on a couple of private lessons and ski camp earlier in the year, and it's really helped my skiing -- especially in tight turns like in the bumps or on the steeps, where you have to make fast transitions.

Not so much to get my weight far forward but to get back to center fast. You tend to get a lot of energy with modern skis and the "pop" at the end of a turn will often rock you back on your heels. A quick pullback of the feet during transition and into the new turn will make for a fast transition and your balance carving the new turn.

Try it and see if it doesn't help.

Angulating and banking

Re: the discussion of angulation vs. banking, I love doing high-speed, long-radius swooping banked turns down slopes (and they're a great way to get the attention of the ski patrol!).

But when I'm working on improving my skiing I work on angulation, not banking.

The reason is simple. It's much easier to bank and much harder to angulate skillfully. Yet it's the latter that's critical to master for tight turns in challenging situations.

It's like skidding vs. carving. It's easy to skid and hard to carve, so I work on carving.

Other tips, resources

Quote:
I am still trying to learn to carve properly. I want to keep my CoM moving smoothly through the transition and to avoid skidding. Thanks very much for your help.
I mentioned earlier that Harb's Essentials of Skiing book and DVD has been really useful for me. One of the drills that will help your transitions is the "boot touch drill," where you sink down and touch your boots as you make the turn transition. Keeps you from up-unweighting and pushing the skis into a skid.

And as a general tip, work like crazy on tipping. Go for high edge angles -- early and increasing throughout your turns. I haven't seen Harb's Tipping DVD yet but expect it to have some good drills that really break it down!

Hope this helps!
post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 
RickS,

Thanks for your suggestions. I have Harb's books and have been studying them. Your point about practicing angulating and carving makes perfect sense to me.

A big handicap for my self-learning is the lack of feedback. Thanks to everyone here, I got a lot of very helpful info/suggestions from my lousy video clip.

How often do you ski? It looks like you have to go even further than I to get to a serious mountain.

Chuck
post #24 of 29
Quote:
A big handicap for my self-learning is the lack of feedback. Thanks to everyone here, I got a lot of very helpful info/suggestions from my lousy video clip.
I look forward to ChuckT2, coming soon to a video player near me?

There's no doubt that edging/tipping are big components of carving. All the drills and exercises are you can find--or imagine--are worth practicing to develop the skill of tipping your skis.

But as I've noted, I caution against equating the skill of tipping to high angles with the directive to tip to the highest angles you can, all the time! Like all movements in skiing, the wider the range you are familiar with and comfortable with, the better. But just because your car has 500 horsepower doesn't mean you need to slam the accelerator to the floor every time! With greater skill comes greater range and power, but also greater subtlety, finesse, touch, and versatility.

For the purpose of learning to transition from one turn to the next and change edges with no skidding, I would agree with RickS that Harb's recent book describes some decent exercises. Remember again, though, that such transitions, exhilarating though they can be, are only one option in skiing. While it is clearly the goal you've stated in your first post, don't obsess over it to the point that you refuse to explore the other options that will make you a complete skier.

Taking it further, with today's great skis, simply rolling your skis from edge to edge and riding their sidecut is about the simplest thing you can learn to do. The only prerequisite is the purely offensive desire to go as fast as your skis can go, which is quite different from most skiers' intent to turn "to control speed." But as many skiers on the slopes today demonstrate, it doesn't take much skill! Indeed, shaped carving skis have created a new breed of "terminal intermediate": the skier who can do no more than "park and ride" on one set of edges or the other, going wherever his skis take him like a runaway train on a curvy track. 15 years ago, most intermediate skiers just twisted their skis into gross, braking skids, with little ability to tip, hold the line, and carve. Now, we still have those (made worse by the freestyle fad of the "flat ski zones" of our terrain parks), as well as the skiers who can't shape their turns because they're locked on edge and lack both the rotary skills and refined edging skills of experts.

Best regards,
Bob
post #25 of 29
RickS--good post! While I question the unqualified directive to pull the feet back consciously, I believe that you are describing an important fore-aft movment in skiing--much as I have described in several current threads, including this one (and this one, and this one), and as seen in this animation:



I question the "unqualified" directive for two main reasons. First, timing and intensity are critically important and different for every turn, and rarely can the conscious mind dictate these attributes of a movement. And second, if all movements and timing are accurate, no particular, intentional muscular effort will be required to keep the feet and the body in their proper relationships. As I've described here and elsewhere (see the links above), ideally, the diverging momentums of the center of mass and the feet, which travel at both different speeds and different directions as their paths cross in the transition, will be sufficient. Yes, that's the theoretical "ideal," but in real terms, only minimal, subtle corrections should be needed--and they won't always involve "pulling the feet back"!

Clearly, though, since the feet always travel faster than the body in linked, round turns (taking the longer line down the hill), they must "pass us" in every transition, as our center of mass takes the shortcut to get ahead of them again. Whether it involves a "conscious" effort or not to pull the feet back after thay pass beneath us, it is, indeed, a movement that must occur!

Best regards,
Bob
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
RickS--good post! While I question the unqualified directive to pull the feet back consciously, I believe that you are describing an important fore-aft movment in skiing...

I question the "unqualified" directive for two main reasons. First, timing and intensity are critically important and different for every turn, and rarely can the conscious mind dictate these attributes of a movement. And second, if all movements and timing are accurate, no particular, intentional muscular effort will be required to keep the feet and the body in their proper relationships.

...in real terms, only minimal, subtle corrections should be needed--and they won't always involve "pulling the feet back"!

...Whether it involves a "conscious" effort or not to pull the feet back after thay pass beneath us, it is, indeed, a movement that must occur!

Best regards,
Bob
Bob,

Man, you have the coolest graphics/animations! What a great resource.

I agree that sometimes the sort of fore/aft re-centering we're discussing happens naturally. But I notice that often it doesn't -- that skiers (like myself) often find themselves "in the back seat" and struggling during their transitions into new turns -- which can be a disaster in tight turns in challenging environments.

So I consciously and intentionally drill pulling my feet back to re-center quickly. It's a skill I want to have completely automated and fluent, so I don't have to think about it.

And the cool thing about behavioral fluency (ie, automating core skills) is that it leads to:
  • retention (you tend to hold onto the skill over time)
  • endurance (you can do it with minimal fatigue), and
  • application (you apply it appropriately in varying situations).
That last bit about applying fluent skills appropriately is key. If I find myself in the back seat, I'll automatically pull the feet back under me. If I find myself where I need to be over my skis, I don't.

So I practice consciously so I can perform unconsciously...pulling back when needed and not when not.

Rick
post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes View Post
There's no doubt that edging/tipping are big components of carving. All the drills and exercises are you can find--or imagine--are worth practicing to develop the skill of tipping your skis.

But as I've noted, I caution against equating the skill of tipping to high angles with the directive to tip to the highest angles you can, all the time! Like all movements in skiing, the wider the range you are familiar with and comfortable with, the better...

...While it is clearly the goal you've stated in your first post, don't obsess over it to the point that you refuse to explore the other options that will make you a complete skier.
As my smarta** brother-in-law likes to say, "I feel strongly both ways."

On the one hand, do obsess about learning to carve well. It's the hard part of becoming a truly expert skier, especially learning to tip to high angles. Lots of skiers can do banked carves at low edge angles; relatively few can do carved turns at high angles.

I certainly agree with Bob that expert skiing is more than carving. But I'm convinced the other stuff is easier -- and built on a base of carving expertise.

Quote:
Taking it further, with today's great skis, simply rolling your skis from edge to edge and riding their sidecut is about the simplest thing you can learn to do. The only prerequisite is the purely offensive desire to go as fast as your skis can go, which is quite different from most skiers' intent to turn "to control speed." But as many skiers on the slopes today demonstrate, it doesn't take much skill!
Yeah, just blasting down the mountain doing long-radius, banked carved turns doesn't take much skill.

What takes skill is short- and medium-radius carved pure carved turns and "skarved" or "brushed carve" turns that are carved turns combined with some skidding.
post #28 of 29
Quote:
I practice consciously so I can perform unconsciously
Nice!
post #29 of 29
Learned responses is what we called these movements way back in the past. Which is totally different from reactions like pulling our hand off a hot stove. The difference being the drilling you mention Rick. Walking is a great example of a learned response. We generally don't think of it as a learned response unless we are unfortunate enough to have to re-learn to walk because of some sort of accident.

For most of us, we decide we want to go "there" and that we will walk to get "there". The actual performance of the walking isn't a strong focus nor is it totally sub-conscious. An example of this is if we suddenly encounter a patch of ice along that journey to "there". Our conscious mind kicks in because we will need to make some slight changes to our movements just to get across that patch of ice safely. Which is something that happens in skiing quite often since the surface conditions are constantly changing. So IMO it is this semi-concious decision making that makes skiing such a challenge.

Can you (we) program in a response? Yes.
Is it applicable in all situations? Only with the adjustments we make in the conscious realm.
Does it need to be a strong conscious focus? That is the crux of all of this, each situation makes us search our data base for an appropriate response. If we have a lot of successful experience in that situation the focus isn't as strong. If we have a lot of unsuccessful experience in that situation we will switch to a much stronger conscious focus.

Another good example of this is driving a car. I've read some DOT statistics that suggest it is almost 85% sub-counscious. Meaning it is another activity that we don't think about doing very much. Although I would hesitate to label it as uncounscious because we still need to pay attention to what we are doing. When we lose that 15% conscious focus, accidents happen.
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