or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Help with Level III clinic topic
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Help with Level III clinic topic

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
I just finished our weekly certification clinic and I need help coming up with a 20 minute teaching assignment for next week's clinic. Take us through some upper level, dynamic tasks that will help us to “engage the arc” of the turn verses “engage the edge”.
post #2 of 11
Skiguy22, I am not quite sure what you mean by “engage the arc” of the turn verses “engage the edge”. If you said this to me on the hill I would have envisioned gaining an early edge and shaping the turn better vs a not engaging the edges till near the fall line then heavy edging in the second half of the turn. Is this what you mean?

I could take a number of approaches for a 20 minute presentation. The main differences between early edge and late are the center of mass needs to start moving into the next turn from near the fall line (don't hang onto the turn too long). Balance must be progressively transfered from the old outside to the new outside foot during the finish/neutral phase of the turn. And last you don't want to put anything in the way of the next turn initiation such as touching the pole to far forward or scissor the new inside foot forward blocking the CM's path. Here are a few possibilities

You could work on early CM movements by using a paradgim shift such as start and finish the turn in the fall line, a static exercise without skis on to show what you mean by move the CM early. Demo on easy terrain the difference between early and late. Adjust and modify.

You could work on gripping the poles with a full grip and putting your thumb on top the pole like you were pushing a button. This prevents the poles from swinging to far forward and being put in the way of the next turn. Continue with exploring when to touch on easy terrain.

You can work on transfering the pressure to the new outside ski by lightening the old outside ski during the finish phase of a turn and rolling the new outside ski over into the new edge. A christe fan with this exercise will kill 20 miniutes. Just make sure you are tipping the new inside foot to initiate the roll of the new outside ski onto the new edge. All on easy terrain.

That is just a few though and by no means explores the many possibilities.

[ January 15, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #3 of 11
Try something along these lines:
1. Railroad tracks. Focus on moving the weight forward at edge change.
2. Work to a high outside ski edge by flexing the inside leg while extending the outside leg. Use as wide a stance as possible, let the inside ski go flat if necessary. Let the weight transfer between skis happen naturally. The goal is to get to as high an edge angle as possible on the outside ski. Ski far enough to do several of edge changes. This gets real fast.
3. Same as above, but do the edge changes by moving laterally from ski to ski, without raising the hips. The hips should remain very close to the snow at all times.
4. Same as step 3. but focus on getting to a high edge angle on the little toe side of the inside ski.
5. Experiment with edging the inside ski to control the shape and size of turns.

Or try this:
1. On a moderate pitch, make big, fast GS turns with no speed control until you are going too fast.
2. Gradually shorten you turn radius with every turn, without changing your basic GS movement pattern. This should gradually bring your speed under control.
3. When your skis break loose (i.e. when you can't make decent short turns), stop and go back to step 1.
4. Identify the ski which breaks loose first. Generally, everyone will have a weaker side that consistently degrades first. Try raising the toes of the weak side to create some functional tension in the lower leg and foot.

I hope this helps. Let me know what you did and how it worked out.

post #4 of 11
Deal with CM and base of support.

Short radius turns...CM moves downhill towards center of arc.Many view it as center of the turn. Big difference.
Long radius turns...CM moves downhill towards center of arc.

Think of a clock. Short radius between 2-3 o'clock.
Long radius between 12:05 and 1 o'clock.

Short radius CM moves more into the turn, while Long radius moves more forward with the ski.

With long radius turns having your body move more forward than "in", you are following the arc.

[ January 15, 2003, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: KeeTov ]
post #5 of 11

I am also a little confuse with engage the arc, but here are my thoughts.

When someone says this I invison that people tipping and riding the edge, so we need them to experience more. The arc is about more that just engaging the edge.

Start with pivot turns, the slowly add a little edge to the pivot turns until the skis are carving more

Then, have everyone do railroad tracks(on terrain that is not too steep so they do not advance the hip too far inside)
Once they are making nice railroad tracks and independent leg steering, slowly until the skis break loose, that's too much leg rotation.

You have now worked from each end of the spectrum back to the center.

Another angle would to have students stand taller and more over the ski and work on strong inside half.

Let us know what you find out, Good luck!
post #6 of 11
Originally posted by Tibetan Tree Frog:

Once they are making nice railroad tracks and independent leg steering, slowly until the skis break loose, that's too much leg rotation.

I think your brain is moving faster than your fingers. What was this sentence supposed to say?
post #7 of 11
Originally posted by JohnH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tibetan Tree Frog:

Once they are making nice railroad tracks and independent leg steering, slowly until the skis break loose, that's too much leg rotation.

I think your brain is moving faster than your fingers. What was this sentence supposed to say?
</font>[/quote]Correct John H, trying to do too much at one time, sorry. Let's try this again.

Once they are making nice railroad tracks add independent leg steering slowly until the skis break loose. Once they break loose, that's too much leg rotation.

I thought of another idea.

Try a progression that works on progressively edging not just engage the edges. Think of it as engagiiiinnnnnggggg edges.
post #8 of 11
Engaging the arc of the turn may require a visit to rotary movements with a strong focus on understanding the separation of the upper and lower body, how one effect the other, and development of simultaneous leg rotation.

The fact the student is upper level can be a trap. I would suggest meaningful work on blue green slopes to start with and possibly end on a calibration run on a groomed black to see how it all shakes out.

Wedge change up, hockey stops, side slips, linked pivot slips, open parallel (slippy-slidey)& turn them there legs!), uphill Christy, tracer turns, stance focus with boot to shin contact. (Both shins at all times in a more wide track stance!) Look at CM and see where it goes and what affect it has. Ask and discuss with all students. Learning is a participation sport.

I think we just went past a 20-minute session! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #9 of 11
TTF, thanks, I get it.

Learner brought up a good one that might work (well, more than one, but one that I'd like to elaborate on).

If you know how to do a correct/proper wedge christie, where the new turning ski engages to start the turn while it is uphill, then that could be a good exercise to teach. However, if you don't know what I mean, then ask a L3 cert at your ski area. I know very few L2 certs that can do a correct wedge christie that would pass a L3 exam, but your L3s should be able to teach it to you if you haven't already worked on this (or you may be a L3 cert??)

This definitely seems like engaging the arc, and not necessarily engaging the edge. But I'm still not completely sure I know what you mean by the difference between the two.
post #10 of 11
Thread Starter 
Thanks for everyone who responded. I decided to go on the premise that by engaging the arc a skier has the ability to change the turn radius by continious tipping of the skis by progressively increasing the edge angle. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #11 of 11

I am very interested in this thread, and therefore, I would find a lesson, to be most " engaging "[ pun intended, ]if it emphsized an early egagement of the uphill, little toe edge of the ski, and at the some time, probably just before rolling on to the new edges, using "some" degree of dynamic anticipation with the lightened matching downhill ski to develop a skid free turn. I know you don't want to concern your lesson with edge engagement, but how do you avoid that, and more importantly, not dealing with edge egagement,is this at all useful to the mainsteam skier that is suppose to benefit from instruction ?

The assumption, of course, is that actual turn arch must change if the turn changes. And yes, the degree of engagement[degree of tippiness of the lightened ski] determines the tightness of the arc, or the ability to change same. But also, there isn't always a free or lightened ski. Dynamic anticipation becomes an aid to help engage the new tune arc more efficiently, and quickly,hopefully eliminating or at least minimizing skidding.Of course, a skidded turn arc is a turn of sorts, but it is an ever changing shape of an elipse.

I also must assume that the 20 minute lesson includes a minimal amount of discussion and instructor demonstration, with more emphasis on the practice of the skills and exercises that were demonstrated. Hopefully, during your demonstration lesson, there would be more opportunites to handle any individual problems that may come up if the skill/s, as demonstrated, become problematic for the student.

I understand, that Level III is right up there. Theoretically, and esoterically, maybe I am not suppose to understand, or in fact don't understand, what your task is truly about. However, establishing a connecton of your Level III "teaching assignments" to how it will help your future students become better skiers through instructional efforts, should always be the question that needs an answer ?

I hope the Level III type of certification exercises and tasks do have a directness to the end user, the student that wants to be a better skier.

[ January 19, 2003, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: wink ]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Help with Level III clinic topic