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bump skiing for MA

post #1 of 34
Thread Starter 
After getting all the advises and learning from the experience of the experts here in my previous thread 'virtual bump vs real bump' I made an attempt to manage down a huge mogul run. I don't know what to focus on as bump skiing is really quite new to me. Any advise will be much appreciated.

skis: Head ixrc 1200i
slope: Black mogul run covered with fresh heavy powder. So I have to guess where is what.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1W7CC2M2Kk
post #2 of 34
"Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn!"

I always wanted to quote that. Actually, I have no idea how to bump ski. I just point my skis down the mountain and go.

post #3 of 34
Carver, looks like you're having fun on your trip. I admire your commitment to including Epic posts on a daily basis as part of your trip.

The main thing that stands out to me is the complete lack of extension/flexion movements.

Flex and extend as much as you can and when you think you're doing it enough, double it.

Timing of when to flex and extend is also crucial. Flex on the tops of the bumps and extend into the troughs. Makes sense no?

When you extend, drive your pelvis forward.

you also were not making any pole plants which are important in the bumps. Can't comment on that until I see you try.

Another thing I suspect is that you need to keep your eyes focused further down the hill, rather than on the bump immediately in front of you.
post #4 of 34
Challenging bump run, especially with the snow mixed in. You managed, but you need to find something easier to practice on.

Try not to let your skis go across the hill. You really need to stay facing the fall line. In other words, upper body stays with the fall line while lower body makes the turns. Get a rhythm and move into the next turn sooner.

The way you begin the run says alot. First few frames shows you leaning way back, a common mistake people make when they get a little nervous. What I do, which may or may not be correct, is to stand tall with good posture and heals back, then move my body down the hill - perpendicular to the slope. First it helps me face the fear, and second it gets me set for that critical first turn. It sets the tone for the whole run. If you start off tall and firm it's easier to hold on to that body possition than to try to regain it. Take a look at your body position and visualize better alignment and control. You might want to experiment with a closer stance. Many skiers go narrow in the bumps.

A good instructor could do a lot with your skills. You need to learn how to go slow and to learn how to slide your turns.

At :15 you can see some rhythm and later you can see the bent over stance. You 've got a lot to work with, so good luck and keep posting the vids.

Please be advised, I am not an instructor. These things have worked for me and I do ok in the bumps.
post #5 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
When you extend, drive your pelvis forward.

you also were not making any pole plants which are important in the bumps. Can't comment on that until I see you try.

Another thing I suspect is that you need to keep your eyes focused further down the hill, rather than on the bump immediately in front of you.
Not to be picky, I see pole plants and they are part of his turns. Take another look.

Eyes down the hill will help.
post #6 of 34
you're right, I shoulda watched it one more time. I agree that these bumps are simply too difficult for this skier at this stage to do much useful analysis.
post #7 of 34
+1 BTS.

There are too many things to list as "necessary for bump skiing" to make the list actually useful to you right now.
post #8 of 34
carver hk,

Wow, lucky you to be where there such great terrain and snow. In the middle portion of the vid, before the slip, you had it going on for a few bumps. That's a good start. Go to some easier terrain and just ski in the bumps. A taller more centered stance on the skis will help a lot. Don't only make one run, it takes a few runs in the same bumps to start to get the feel of the snow and the shape of the bumps.

RW
post #9 of 34
I watched it. I congratulate you for negotiating that terrain successfully. You won't get better without occasionally stretching your comfort zone. Picking a line with turns every two or three bumps with traversing is how most people start out and should, especially if it is steep. Keep trying and also work on your short radius turns on more subtle terrain. Eventually your lines through the bumps will become more aggressive and you'll be able to negotiate the zipperlines.

Good job and thanks for sharing.
post #10 of 34
Ouch. That's way too much work. Oops - let me rephrase that. What an excellent way to get a work out! This is a great example of taking your regular technique into the bumps. Unfortunately my back hurts just watching this.

See how much you bend over at the waist to absorb the bumps? BTS has nailed it about flex and extend. You need to work on using your legs/knees/ankles to absorb terrain differences more. Practice traversing across a bump run and using your legs as shock absorbers to keep your hips at a constant height off the snow.

Another adaptation you need to make in the bumps is getting your feet a little closer together. Can you see how your inside ski tip comes off the snow on most of these turns? After you get better at absorption (see above), you'll be better able to drive both ski tips down the back side of the bumps to maintain ski snow contact. But getting your feet closer together is another piece to being able to do this.

The last piece of advice is tactics. There are many different ways to ski bumps. The tactic you're using is to mostly ski the "rut". This requires the most brutal absorption. Two options to consider are:
- Find a rut that runs laterally across the hill (with a slight downhill angle)
- Check your speed on the face (uphill side) of a bump with an edge set, then carve the back side of the bump
The idea behind both of these tactics is that your bump to next bump line is more across the hill instead of your next bump directly below your last bump.

At the beginning of the clip, you're shopping for a turn. This is like the first tactic option I'm offering, but you're not working that line. You'e just going straight getting knocked around until you find a good spot. The tactic I'm suggesting would have you working mini turns in while you'e shopping. Through the rest of the clip, you're getting your skis across the fall line, but not enough to slow you down enough for the second strategy. For the second strategy, you need to push the tails more to get your skis even more across the fall line and set the edges to kill most of your speed. Then you can carve around the top of the bump faster to be on the backside of the bump instead of in the rut. In your turns, you have not killed enough speed on the whoomph to pull this off.

As BTS has suggested neither of these tactic options will work until you can absorb better.
post #11 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
After getting all the advises and learning from the experience of the experts here in my previous thread 'virtual bump vs real bump' I made an attempt to manage down a huge mogul run. I don't know what to focus on as bump skiing is really quite new to me. Any advise will be much appreciated.

skis: Head ixrc 1200i
slope: Black mogul run covered with fresh heavy powder. So I have to guess where is what.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1W7CC2M2Kk
well first I need you to tell me how an advanced(like yourself judging by your other videos) and not a 150 day year skier can ski bumps with OUT rotary. which despite your best effort your using tons of upper body rotary here.

so first I need you to say that you will be ok with skidding, and actively turning your skis. after you say that on here I think more people would be inclined to help.
post #12 of 34
carverhk,

I am compelled to post:

Use the two-footed-release, and make sure that when you pressure the tips at initiation, that happens with extension. ie. drive the tips into the snow as you descend into the trough. That means moving VERY far forward to tilt the skis into the trough.

Flex as you rise up the shoulder of the bump, but make sure you resist enough to slow you down. Don't simply absorb the entire bump. Essentially, ski from shoulder to shoulder.....

Also, a common theme.... narrow the stance, ok?

With such technique, "rotary" defined as active femur rotation is not required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwhackerinPA
so first I need you to say that you will be ok with skidding, and actively turning your skis. after you say that on here I think more people would be inclined to help.
So you point here is ....Blackmail?
post #13 of 34
Thread Starter 
Thank you all for the great help offered in this thread and the short turns MA. Unfortunately this is my last day on big mountain this trip. I ll have another day skiing on Liechtenstein just for its novelty of being a very small country. I got a lot from keep posting my learning vids here in my trip. My videos proved sure progress. I don't care what school and what technique are offered to help as long as it can improve my skills. To summarise what I get from the advises and what to do next I think it more like this:

1. attempt a smaller bump run
2. legs/knees/ankles to absorb terrain differences more then waist and when extend, drive my pelvis forward.
3. use narrow stance
4. commit the upper body to get a taller more centered stance
5. upper body anticipation(face fall line)
6. maintain snow contact to kill more speed
7. think tactics
8.... what more?

Its a VERY long list. However I ll work on it one by one. I take it a good start and its quite exciting to ski the bumps in the vid as an attempt despite the big failure. Of course I will find easy one for practice in the future. Thanks all for helpingn out.
post #14 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
carverhk,

I am compelled to post:

Use the two-footed-release, and make sure that when you pressure the tips at initiation, that happens with extension. ie. drive the tips into the snow as you descend into the trough. That means moving VERY far forward to tilt the skis into the trough.

Flex as you rise up the shoulder of the bump, but make sure you resist enough to slow you down. Don't simply absorb the entire bump. Essentially, ski from shoulder to shoulder.....

Also, a common theme.... narrow the stance, ok?

With such technique, "rotary" defined as active femur rotation is not required.
Thanks BigE. I see your posting after I post my earlier reply. I think I understand what you said. I ll do that.
post #15 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
carverhk,

I am compelled to post:

Use the two-footed-release, and make sure that when you pressure the tips at initiation, that happens with extension. ie. drive the tips into the snow as you descend into the trough. That means moving VERY far forward to tilt the skis into the trough.

Flex as you rise up the shoulder of the bump, but make sure you resist enough to slow you down. Don't simply absorb the entire bump. Essentially, ski from shoulder to shoulder.....

Also, a common theme.... narrow the stance, ok?

With such technique, "rotary" defined as active femur rotation is not required.



So you point here is ....Blackmail?
I do agree at a very high level that active rotary wouldnt be needed. the issue is learning to ski bumps like that is very tough for many with out actually turning the skis.

its not blackmail if it the truth.

learning to pivot slip and be on soft edge would go a long way with Carverhk. as his flexion/extension and balance he move from pivots slip to rounder and more carvy turns. to eventually just like you want BigE there is no more active rotary

the end result is the same, but trying to learn how to ski bumps with out knowing how to skid/pivot/or absorb is next to impossiable.
post #16 of 34
Carver,
Good to see you branching out and trying to be more versatile. As I remember a lot of advice over the past few months has been to develop all three skills. Tipping, turning and pressure control. One of our coaches over at Keystone is fresh off the mogul tour and I was lucky enough to have him in one of my returning instructor clinics. As part of the curriculum I made each member of the group teach a segment so I could assess their teaching and communication skills. Naturally Jeff decided to teach bump style short radius turns. Here some of that advice.
Skills blend:
Due to the extreme variations of the snow surface, maintaining a good stance requires a lot more focus on pressure control through flexing and extending. (Bob Barnes has an animation that shows how the skier's joints flex and extend in this manner. I'm not sure where it is but I've seen it frequently each time we discuss bump skiing.) Along with that the size of the bumps dictates the range of motion we need to maintain contact with the snow through the troughs while also allowing us to flex enough to absorb the tops of the moguls. So the pressing down of the tips (pushing down with your toes) as we drop into the trough is more a matter of keeping the front half of the skis on the snow. We're really not trying to load the tips and push the tails of the skis out to an edge.

Rotary steering and pivoting is another strong focus because the size of the turns is so much shorter than the sidecut of the skis. Not that you can't carve turns over several bumps, it just isn't going to allow you to ski the zipperline. I would describe his demo of this as a pivot entry on a relatively flat ski. How much you do this depends on the spacing in the bumps. The important thing is that it is the legs doing this not the body.

Tipping is progressive but very quick (DIRT is very rapid). I know it sounds contradictory but during the first half of the turn there is some edge angle but it really starts to become pronounced around the fall line. (Mind you the fall line changes very quickly between bumps and it isn't always just the bottom of the slope.) As you cross the trough the pressure drives this edge strongly into the snowpack and it visually might appear to be increasing but in reality the top of the mogul is less steep so the angle is actually decreasing. The cross under transition allows you to lessen the edge angle further as we reach the end of the turn and roll the skis through the transition and into the new turn.

Which is a pretty long winded way of saying we do not push the tails out to an edge. Nor do we do the classic rotary push off move. Yes, there is a strong edge phase but as this is happening we are also passing over the skis, instead of pushing our body back up the hill off of an edge set platform.

BTW I want to thank Jeff for sharing his ideas about mogul skiing on such a high level. I think the whole group (me included) benefitted from his advice in that clinic. hope it helps Carver.
post #17 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Rotary steering and pivoting is another strong focus because the size of the turns is so much shorter than the sidecut of the skis. Not that you can't carve turns over several bumps, it just isn't going to allow you to ski the zipperline. I would describe his demo of this as a pivot entry on a relatively flat ski. How much you do this depends on the spacing in the bumps. The important thing is that it is the legs doing this not the body.
JASP is right. Turning in moguls requires sometimes a turn radius of less than one meter. This you cannot carve. You also need to brake all the time. Pro mogul skiers do that by flexing and extending and absorbing. And knee surgery. Note that pro mogul skiing is far from what ski-instructors will teach you on groomers. However, you can ski moguls the way skilled instructors teach you outside the mogul field. Actually, this is where you should start. Dont only look for a smaller mogul field, look for a slope with one bump only.

Anyway, lots of advice here alredy but I would say that skiing after an instructor making his way through the moguls in a very slow manner would be a good way to figure out how to ski bumps. Ski 3 or 4 bumps, then stop. Stop before you mess up. Go across the bump field and look for a good passage but be aware, dont block the mogul field for others. Keep out of the way. Wait for your turn. Allways look up before starting (nothing carver had to worrie about, lucky bastard ).
post #18 of 34
Thread Starter 
Thank you all for the new advises. Especially the very detailed explanation by JASP.

Its been a long drive to another ski resort. So I ll just tell what I did and share the video. I ll read through the new advises later.

I did two more run today on the same big bump run as there are no easy bump run nearby. It was a lot of fun trying out mogul. Very exciting too. Here is what I did:
I started with TFR bearing in mind everything on the list in my previous post. A lot of things to bear in mind really. However, its a ski trip turned skiing learning trip so I did try to remember everything in skiing the moguls. Today is better, I can see the deep rut and know where to avoid. I paid particular attention to tall & narrow stance(despite failure to do so), ski tip pressure, stay forward and tactics(looking for where to brake hard). The major problem I experienced is the ski tails got blocked by the adjacent mogul when I ski(slipping) down the rut. Otherwise seems manageable.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcMKqh0w6UY
post #19 of 34
Carver carver carver... only joking . Great to see you falling in love with moguls. It usually lasts your entire life.

Anyway, if you look at your very first turn to your right... see that rushed rotated move you make... check out the feedback I gave you in other thread.... dont dont dont try to point your skis the other way by such heavy rotation. It gets over emphasized here in the bumps. The reason for this is offcourse a flaw in your technique and that is the main bad but since you are choosing your path incorretly it all worse and worse. As you said yourselfe, your ski tails are getting caught in the ruts. That is normal but it gets over emphasized if you ski the way you do, through the valleys. You catch too much speed also. As we see in the end. If we look at frame 0:21 as you turn right and raice your hand to performe the stunning statue of liberty stance and head down the fall line what you should have done was to go deeper on your turn to the left and head towards the camera in that same instance but over the bump with flexed legs insed of above it. Thats where all the snow is. Nice and soft. Spraying. Lets see what happens next OMG, Carver is going for a jump a few bumps down taking speed.... no, he changes his mind, he slams on the brakes and settles for a less spectacular pivot slip in the air . No harm done. Thats part of good skiing. You did well. BTW, dont wear a back pack in the bumps if you dont have to.

T
post #20 of 34
Thread Starter 
tdk6 - I know its funny to look at the vid. lucky that my legs are still intact. Your descriptions are extremely lively and funny. Thanks. JASP - Thank you for offering help. I still not able to diggest what was written. I have your posting photographed and read during my flight. Reply later.
post #21 of 34
That's a brave video to put up, Kudos to you. only other stuff I'd add to the litany of advice is the stand a little taller (takes stress off the quads, give you more length to retract/ absorb, and generally-and I mean this-standing tall just makes you feel confident and in charge-and in the moguls that's helpful). Oh, and conscioiusly remind yourself to stretch out the legs and back (extend) after each bump compresses you.

Don't let anyone tell ya different-moguls are the ulktimate hallmark of the expert skier-have at them!
post #22 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
Don't let anyone tell ya different-moguls are the ulktimate hallmark of the expert skier-have at them!
Thanks for the advise. I m learning mogul just because my ultimate goal is to be an all-mountain skier. Besides, learning to ski mogul is fun too.

JASP - I went through your posting very carefully. I believe I understand what you said. I ll give it a try on smaller moguls in my next trip. Thanks.
post #23 of 34
carver hk,

Watched your second bump video and there is improvement. Some advice that is posted above is stand taller and stay on the center of the ski. A more quiet upper body and let the action of the legs happen from the feet upward and not from the hips downward.

Keep at it, your are doing great!

RW
post #24 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
carver hk,

Watched your second bump video and there is improvement. Some advice that is posted above is stand taller and stay on the center of the ski. A more quiet upper body and let the action of the legs happen from the feet upward and not from the hips downward.

Keep at it, your are doing great!

RW
Thanks RW for the comment and the advise. I ll have another chance to meet big bumps in a 2 weeks time. I ll put up new vids if I could get some progress.
post #25 of 34
Thread Starter 

update for MA

The focus is on speed control. What I don't like in the vid is again the very unstable upper body and seemingly out of control pole plant. Any advise will be much appreciated.


skis=head ixrc 1200 on black bump run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lLEdVZOFac
post #26 of 34
carver, when you look at your bump videos do you see counter-balancing movements? how about flexing to release? early edge engagement of the inside ski?

These are all things you can do in your carving videos but you abandon once you get into bumps. You aren't going to be able to carve rails through the bumps like you do on the groom, obviously, but you still want to use all of those same movements. You want to apply them in a fashion that creates a brushed turn instead of a carve.

I'd head back to the groomed again and try to make the kind of smeared turns you want to make in the moguls but keeping all of the good skiing fundamentals you've built up while carving. When you feel like you can make these turns effectively take them back to the bumps and see what happens.

That's the way I usually approach getting back into the bumps, as a fellow skier who doesn't have a lot of 3D terrain to work with at home.
post #27 of 34
Thread Starter 
Hi onyxj,

Thanks for your advise. I read your advise before I ski the mogul run again today with what you said added in together with narrower stance. It seems better. I need no more skidding down the troughs like what's in the latest vid. But since the visibility was so poor I can barely see the 2nd mogul so I can't ask anyone to take video for me. I really like to see how it's going.
post #28 of 34
Don't forget about absorption and extension.

Allow the shoulder of the bump ahead to push your knees up -- as you resist this, you will slow down. Allow the CM to move forwards while the bump is slowing your feet down. Then as you cross the shoulder, extend your legs down the backside, to ensure that the tips will engage and turn.

Repeat.

You can ski surprisingly slow this way.

Add speed as conditions and skill permit.
post #29 of 34
Thread Starter 
Thanks BigE. Will keep that in mind.
post #30 of 34
I see you being in the backseat for various reasons, which makes it very hard to control your speed and turns.

Two things stand out to me. Your feet are too far apart and you are letting your hands get to far away from your body and behind you.

Keeping your skis pointed more down the fall line, absorb with your knees and push your tips down the backside of the mogul while touching your pole tips on the downhill side of the bump and in front of you

Read my quick hands thread and go to mogulskiing.net for more information. It's the best mogul skiing site with the best information about mogul skiing i have found yet.
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