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Too much rotary

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
So I tend to initiate with my body vs. feet. I'm trying to visualize some basic "steps" to use to break the habit (as well as a bit of an Aframe). I tend to feel locked in the hip and that I can't rollover my inside ankle, knee and hip early.

I've experimented with retracting my new inside foot which allows me to feel some pressure build in my ankle.

I've experimented with slightly "leading with the new inside foot and I feel that I can roll the knees better, although the countering feels odd.

If anyone wants to throw out some small "steps" that you think of when carving, i would appreciate it. (please keep it simple, no physics)
post #2 of 26
Here's one small "step"; try skating without picking up your feet from the snow. Try on flat cat tracks. Then try on a gentle slope let your "strides" get longer and longer as you go faster. See what happens.
post #3 of 26
crudbuster,

Welcome to Epic!


Quote:
So I tend to initiate with my body vs. feet. I'm trying to visualize some basic "steps" to use to break the habit (as well as a bit of an Aframe). I tend to feel locked in the hip and that I can't rollover my inside ankle, knee and hip early.
The A frame could be an alignment or boot issue which is adding to your edge release issue. Skiers who rotate their upper body to start the new turn usually aren't releasing the edge of the old outside ski before starting the new turn.

Something simple to try is after making a turn, do a traverse and make sure you are standing tall over the outside ski (not crunched down) and move your belly button first between your two feet and then continue to move it diagonally down the hill. At some point you should feel your lower ski flatten, then guide the ski tip down and around the new turn. Repeat in opposite direction. Once you get the feeling of moving your core to release your edges before you start your new turn, then shorten the traverse until the turns are linking together.

Ask around about a shop that is known for boot fitting and alignment, make an appointment and get your boots aligned to your stance. It could make a huge difference in your skiing.

RW
post #4 of 26
Hey Buster!

Welcome.

Step 1: High step it to a boot fitter
post #5 of 26
Assuming your boots are ok (or rather, after getting your boots fixed) one small step you might want to try is a little drill that goes like this.

Hold your poles out in front of you with both hands a little wider than shoulder width apart and keep them horizontal, level with the horizon, and make turns with your skis and legs while keeping your upper body, head and poles all facing downhill. This drill should help you build some flexibility and upper-lower body separation.
post #6 of 26
CrudBuster,

Leave your poles at the bottom of the hill. Find a gentlle groomed slope and ski with your hands on your hips. As your transition from one turn to the next, very slowly/gradually roll your skis from flat to a low edge as you use your hands to subtly turn your hips toward the outside of the new turn, and push your new inside (downhill) hip forward. Tip your new inside knee into the turn as you are manually countering your hips.

That will illiminate your body rotary by forcing you to do the opposite. The knee tip will help eliminate the A-Frame and encourage the skis to carve in edge angle harmony.

Build edge angle gradually as you go through the turn. So slowly you can feel the skis at flat, then feel the angle slowly/gradually build, degree by degree.

When you get this movement sequence right, you will begin to feel what I call the pelvic shift. During the transition, it's the elimination of the couter from the previous turn, and the establishment of counter for the new turn. You'll feel your carve initiation very clearly, and it will feel ultra clean and push/pivot free.
post #7 of 26
Thread Starter 
Thanks Gang!

Boots: yep, I need help there for sure. I've always used a stiff boot (Nordica Grand Prixs and currently Doberman 150 WC). I've also had two compressed vertebreas, both mcls grade 2, broken ankle, and broken bones in my foot. I weigh 165 and am 5'11.

Hips: Does it feel as though your new inside ski leads a bit when are keeping your hips and shoulders facing the outside. Does it help with the hips?

Ankle: What place (if any) would retraction of the new inside foot have? I do feel pressure build.

I appreciate all the feedback - very helpful. I'll work on getting "reset" at transition and work on my boots.
post #8 of 26
Welcome to EpicSki, CrudBuster. And Happy New Year to everyone!

One small step? How about lots of small steps. To activate your legs and discipline your upper body, as well as develop your stance and fore-aft movements, refine your edging movements, and more, try the drill commonly known as "Thousand Steps."

Similar to "skating," it involves stepping from ski to ski continuously throughout a sequence of turns. Make the turns vigorous, with distinct direction changes--like you're chasing a rabbit or something--to give purpose to your movements. You don't want any skid whatsoever; your tracks should show distinct edge sets and clean engagement.

Most importantly, step the inside ski of the turn first, moving its tip into the turn, creating the letter "V" between your skis. Bring the outside ski tip in to match the inside ski, and repeat. DO NOT let yourself create the letter "A" by stepping the outside tail away.

Remember--V's (as in "Vail"); not A's (as in "Aspen").

Pay particular attention to the V's and A's thing at the transition. It's very common for skiers, even at a high level, to be able to "skate" through the turn with V's, but then need to start the new turn with a tails-out A. Keep at it!

If you are doing it right, you should find that your legs are turning beneath your pelvis and upper body with each step, and throughout the turn. As a result, your inside hand, shoulder, and hip should lead their outside counterparts. Note your "position" as each turn nears the end, and correct it if necessary. Since you say you tend to initiate with your upper body (known as "rotation"), it is likely that you'll need to pay attention here, and that it might not feel natural at first. You will probably find your outside hand leading the first few times, pulling your shoulder and hips around, and making it difficult to hold an edge. Fix that!

Keep Phil Mahre's important reminder in mind: "If it doesn't feel strange, you didn't change." Keep working at it/playing with it, and when practicing, don't let yourself do it wrong. You may want to find someone else with a good eye to watch you and give feedback. Of course, there's no substitute for a good instructor!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #9 of 26
By the way, with a name like "CrudBuster," you're going to like the improvement you find as you master these new movements. Nothing works much more poorly in heavy crud than trying to force the skis into a twisted skid with the upper body! With the right movements, you'll be able to keep your skis moving the direction they're pointing ("carving"), rather than skidding and braking all the time. It will work enormously better in crud, ice, powder, race courses, and even bumps. Not mention everywhere else!

Best regards,
Bob
post #10 of 26
Wow, with all those injuries do you have any physical limitations? I understand you may not feel comfortable sharing this information but that could be a big part of the problem for a couple reasons.

First would be if you have a limited use of any of those body parts? Which vertabrea are compressed? Do all the ankle injuries effect how you roll your ankles? How about the knees, did the ligament damage heal? Do your knees have any extra play in them? Pain, or limited range of motion is your body's way of trying to tell you something. It would be suggesting either more rehab (strengthening the weakness / increasing it's range of movement), or accepting that limitation if you've already reached Maximum Medical Improvement (MMI). Which is far beyond the scope of advice you can get here at Epic, only you and your medical "coaches" can figure that one out.

Secondly, even if you don't have any limitations as a result of those injuries, you might be hanging onto some compensatory movements you used when they were weaker. If it is just these compensatory moves that became habitual, it's a matter of de-programing them and / or replacing them with more effective movements. Which we here at Epic can do but I would start with a live coach and supplement that advice with discussions here on the net.

Obviously, I work for Bob so it's not surprising that I really like the idea of a thousand step activity. The only thing I would add is that if your stance is too high, or too low, the maneuver will break down quickly. Typically, too high and the skis skid because you cannot reach and pressure the outside ski enough. Too low and stepping from ski to ski is difficult since you are (in effect) walking in a very croutched position. I'd call this a GOLYLOCKS maneuver because you need to search out the stance that is "just right" for your body type and condition.
post #11 of 26
Minimize the inside tip lead. Tip lead is no virtue; it is an artifact of what happens when we bend the inside leg in ski boots...especially your very stiff boots. Tip lead limits tipping the inside ski on to its edge and puts some people in the backseat.

Try this...on easy terrain, lift just the tail of the inside ski off the snow, no more than an inch, then tip it to the inside with the ankle so just the little toe edge of the shovel is on the snow. Allow your body to angulate (bend slightly at the hips) and counter (face the outside ski), all for balance. Make sure the effort is in the ankle, then, zen-like, allow the inside knee to drop toward the snow. Allow the hip to cross the skis and drop toward the snow, but drive the ankle--ankle, knee, hip in that sequence, keeping the ski tail off the snow for the drill. Start slowly and get smooth before you get quick. Of course, the ski-off-the-snow is only a drill, but it separates the movements to allow them to be practiced one by one. Do not press the big toe edge of the outside ski into the snow...that forces an A-frame on some folks and may cause loss of edge grip on hard pack.

Do have your alignment checked by a very good boot fitter. If the center of your knee isn't over the center of your boot, you won't ski as well as you could.
post #12 of 26
SSG, A few things in your advice don't make sense to me. If you eliminate tip lead that squares the hips to the skis. Then you suggest adding hip counter back into the mix. Seems a bit contrary the way you wrote that. Same for the "don't press the big toe edge of the outside ski into the snow". If the inside ski is off the snow during this drill, the only edge you have engaged is the big toe edge you are telling them not to use. I would be interested in reading how you can use a ski as the only support, then lean the body into the turn thus tipping it onto its inside edge without the inside edge being pressed into the snow.
I'm sure you don't mean to have those contradictions in your advice. Could you re-write that for more clarity?
post #13 of 26
Thread Starter 
When I pull back or retract my new inside ski I feel pressure build in the ankle and I feel the tip of the ski engadge. However, when I retract I don't feel much pressure at the end of the turn on the tail of the ski.

When I try to lead more with my new inside ankle, knee and hip, i do get a countered feeling and feel a lot more pressure building in the inside ankle -almost to a point of it feeling like it is going to explode. Keep in mind that I'm attempting very round, carved turns.
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Same for the "don't press the big toe edge of the outside ski into the snow". If the inside ski is off the snow during this drill, the only edge you have engaged is the big toe edge you are telling them not to use. I would be interested in reading how you can use a ski as the only support, then lean the body into the turn thus tipping it onto its inside edge without the inside edge being pressed into the snow
Could I take a shot at an answer, JASP? I hear what you're saying, but I tend to agree with SSG on this point. I've often said that, to me, any concept of "pushing" or "pressing," of any type, rarely describes what I feel in my skiing. It goes along with the Bill Sloatman line I've often paraphrased--"I don't get pressure on skis by pushing on them--I get pressure by letting them push on me." Yes, from a physics point of view, it's the same thing--the equal action-reaction idea of Isaac Newton. Skis push on me, and I push back. But psychologically, there's a big difference between action and reaction, and it "feels" very different to me to let the skis provide the pressure or to try to "force" it by consciously, actively "pressing." I tend to feel more like I'm trying to move away from my outside ski, which "chases" me, rather than trying to move toward it and push on it. I suspect that something along these lines is what SSG is talking about. Too much focus on the outside ski can, indeed, cause an excessive A-frame, as SSG points out, and may detract from the essential movements of the inside half of the body. As I like to say, "the outside ski may be where the action is, but the inside ski is where the activity is."

I share your questions about SSG's unqualified directive to "minimize tip lead," though. While it's certainly true that many skiers tend to have too much inside tip lead, it's also true that some skiers have too little--or even rotate their bodies to the point of having the outside ski lead. As you say, some tip lead is inevitable, desirable, and necessary to allow the correct movements of the body to happen. Too much, or too little, tip lead are not problems in themselves, but either can indicate a movement error somewhere up the chain. The mistake is to assume that any particular skier--or all skiers--are making the same mistake!

But my biggest concern, SSG, is the drill you describe about lifting the tail of the new inside (downhill at the start of the turn) ski, while engaging its downhill (little toe) edge at the tip. Not that it's necessarily a bad exercise in itself--it can, indeed be a very good one, in the right context. We used it frequently in the Mahre Training Center at Keystone to address certain problems and encourage certain movements and sensations. It's an exercise with a long, established history, once known as the "schrittbogen." (Yes, I know what you call it!) But you've given it no context. It can easily backfire, and it often does.

The active "foot-to-foot" movement involved in lifting (or just lightening) the downhill ski will disrupt the smooth flow of the center of mass, either accelerating it downhill (if you just transfer pressure by flexing the downhill leg or extending the uphill leg) or moving it uphill, if you extend and move your your body "up" to balance on the uphill ski. (Yes, this effect is minimized with a very narrow stance.) It's good to have the option of doing either of these as the situation demands, but by default, in a smoothly linked turn, my center of mass should already be traveling the direction it needs to go at the moment of edge release, its momentum crossing the path of my skis and moving into the new turn. I shouldn't, by default, need to do anything at that moment to disrupt or redirect its path.

Of course, many skiers do tend to "stall," to finish their old turns still inside and on edge. Such skiers do need to do something to get their CM moving into the new turn, and this drill can serve as a "bandaid" to make it happen. But even there, it does not really address the problem. Sometimes it even exacerbates the problem, creating the very need that it later resolves. This certainly happens if the skier moves uphill to balance on the uphill ski as he lifts the downhill tail, prior to initiating the turn. I've seen these problems arise many, many times, as instructors try to use this exercise without the eye and understanding needed to make sure it doesn't backfire.

More importantly, the body movement forward over the skis at the transition that "lifting the tail" entails tends to keep the CM over the feet--at the very time that we really need to let the feet move away from the body, toward the outside of the turn. This topic of moving "forward" at the transition has come up repeatedly here at EpicSki, and it's an area where I feel that the overwhelming conventional wisdom is very wrong! Or at least, it represents a gross misinterpretation of what really needs to happen. Yes, we need to move ahead of our feet. But "ahead" means "down the hill"--not necessarily across it. And as I've already mentioned in this post, I (my CM) should already be moving the right direction vs. my feet at the transition and moment of edge release. I should not (by default) need to "do" anything to get it moving.

So the "schrittbogen" exercise here moves (accelerates) the CM both forward and laterally with respect to the feet. It solves a problem I shouldn't have if I've finished the previous turn effectively--and may well create the problem itself! As a unique exercise for a specific need, it can be effective. But as a generic directive to just do, or as a description of the movements that should happen by default in turns, it can easily create more problems than it solves. In my opinion, it's powerful medicine that should be used only for the specific diagnosis for which it works, and it should only be prescribed by a professional armed with the antidote should it go awry. Its side-effects may not be worth risking!

Happy New Year!
Bob
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post
Hips: Does it feel as though your new inside ski leads a bit when are keeping your hips and shoulders facing the outside. Does it help with the hips?
Yes, the inside ski WILL lead a bit when you introduce counter into your skiing. But,,, don't use moving the inside foot/ski forward as a mechanism for creating counter. All kinds of unwelcomed things can happen when you do that. Create counter by moving the inside hip forward, while tipping your inside foot/knee into the turn. The inside ski will usually move forward as much as it needs to to allow your hip driven counter creation to happen, as a resultant outcome.
post #16 of 26
I agree with Bob and Rick about the inside tip lead. Its probably a mistake to INTENTIONALLY lead with your inside ski as a method in and of itself. Its also a mistake to categorically demonize the existence of some tip lead if you see it. One mistake that I see a lot among other instructors I know is to look for this visual while doing MA and become obsessive about it. And even worse they will often times tell the student to eliminate the tip lead.

Aaaack. Wrong answer.

If an instructor feels that they see what looks like "too much" tip lead, then they should keep their mouth shut and keep observing until they figure out WHY there might be too much tip lead and then focus on those movements so the skier will learn to ski more correctly without ever even thinking for the tiniest millisecond about their tip lead. The only time that I think an instructor should mention anything about tip lead to a student is when the student is obviously using dramatic tip leading movements intentionally and needs to be told to stop doing it. Tip lead happens. If you don't see tip lead, in fact, its quite possible the student is doing something else wrong. If you see too much tip lead, the student is probably doing something else wrong. Figure out the something else and focus on that, let tip lead be what it is and don't mess with it.

That being said, inside foot pullback is not a bad thing and I see nothing wrong with using it, but don't be fooled into thinking it will completely eliminate tip lead, it won't.

Now, regarding your original question about having some problems getting the new inside foot tipped. You mentioned an A-Frame. Try to mentally think of making an O-frame with your legs, by aggressively tipping that new inside foot.

I think one of the things that makes this difficult is that if you do a dramatic O-frame move with the new inside foot to tip it, it will throw off your balance in a way you are not used to and will tend to lock you up. Your legs will kind of freeze. The mind says go and the legs won't do it. That's because if you do and you aren't ready for it you are probably going to fall onto your side and your body knows that.

While learning this skill use very early and aggressive counter-balance with your upper body so that you can aggressively tip that new inside ski without falling over. Eventually as speed picks up and you get used to the fact that this move of the feet is having dramatic effects on the rest of your body in terms of balance, you will get used to it and be using your feet more.
post #17 of 26
Thanks Bob,
I wasn't trying to say we need to actively press on the big toe edge as much as point out that you will be balancing on it and the advice to not to press on it would be confusing to most skiers when they feel pressure starting to build on that edge. Especially when the ski tips up on edge as the hip moves into the new turn. As I read his advice I was envisioning a student feeling pressure beginning to build on that edge and thinking they're doing something wrong. Which is why I asked SSG to clarify his advice a bit more.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Here's one small "step"; try skating without picking up your feet from the snow. Try on flat cat tracks. Then try on a gentle slope let your "strides" get longer and longer as you go faster. See what happens.
funny the simplest and best answer in the thread IMO. nobody seemed to acknowledge it though.

very similar to what i posted on speed gaining carving like 3 years ago, it pretty much eliminates any skid on the snow.
post #19 of 26
I'm with you, JASP. It certainly has the potential to confuse! It's much like my favorite mantra, "right tip right to go right" (which is quite relevant to this thread's main topic, by the way). As a description of the technique of turning, it is woefully inadequate. But as a mental "hook" to literally get things started on the right foot, and to remind us of the real intent of turning ("to go that way"), along with the realization that it is NOT meant to describe the full technique of turning, it's magic!

I'll say it again:

"The outside leg and ski are where the action is, but the inside leg and ski are where the activity is!"

The converse of this advice--focusing exclusively on the outside ski--is equally confusing, in my opinion, and usually far more problematic. I recall about 20 years ago an "argument" with a racer friend. "Instructors are making it all too complicated with this 'inside leg' stuff. Skiing is simple--just like walking--you stand on one foot, and then you stand on the other." "Yes," I replied, "it is just like walking. You stand on one foot--and you move the other one!" Indeed, the thing that generally moves the least when skiing--or walking--is the foot you're standing on. So if the question is "what should I do?" the answer must almost always focus on the activity of the inside foot, leg, and ski. That doesn't mean that the other side isn't critically important, that its role isn't worth discussing. The main reason we move "everything but the outside foot," really, is to enable that outside ski to do its thing!

Best regards,
Bob
post #20 of 26
Yup, I see this a lot in a different but similar situation. I use the idea that the feet (and legs for that matter) have two roles. Supporting our body and defining the turn. If we use the inside foot (leg) to define the turn, the outside foot (leg) is left with the job of supporting the body and following the turn the inside Foot (leg) has defined. If one foot (leg) is more dominant and tries to do both jobs all the time the ability to turn both directions breaks down quickly. Both feet (legs) need to alternate roles.
post #21 of 26
BWP, skating is a very good way to get more leg usage without big upper body rotary. The only thing we have to be careful with is that it is a cross lateral movement verses bilateral movements. Thousand step turns are actually a progression of movements from stepping to shuffling, to sliding. So they end up in just about the same place. They're just a bilateral variation of a skating progression.
post #22 of 26
Or,,,

focus on the flow of the CM, and use that flow to auto create edge angle and turn shape. The inside ski/foot/leg focus can be a good stepping stone tool for manually creating that flow. Learning balance and force management is the next step up the ladder in efficiency refinement.

Tipping the inside leg forces/pulls the CM into the turn. It's an excellent tool for helping those who are stuck directly above their skis, and struggling with an A-frame, move across their skis and bring their edge angles into harmony. But in learning force and balance management skills a skier can take the next step forward, let the forces do the work, and simply ALLOW the CM to flow from turn to turn, and edge angle to be created.

In learning balance/force management, it soon becomes clear that it's not about the roles of the inside or the outside ski so much,,, it's about the CM. The inside ski can be taken right out of the picture (lift it), and flow works just as nicely, carving is just as clean. Same with removing the outside ski. If the CM flows, the skis WILL tip, and turn shape happens.

For two footed skiing, all you really need to do with the inside leg/foot/ski is make sure they don't get in the way of the process. As the CM flows, the body inclines and the inside leg needs to shorten. Just relax it and let it. It doesn't have to be a matter of making it,,, it can simply be the more passive process of ALLOWING it. The removal of resistance. And let it tip along with the rest of the inclining body. Resist the tipping in the inside leg, and the flow of the CM and tipping of the entire body gets blocked. ALLOW, ALLOW, ALLOW.
post #23 of 26
Fairly common drill here is to target an object across the hill and not to turn your upper body away from that object for as long as you can. The idea basically being that if you have your upper body pointed across the hill at that object you will be unable to start the turn by twisting it downhill to start the turn.

This forces you to use your lower body to engage the skis and start the turn.
post #24 of 26

Relationship of inside tip-lead, counter, and tipping

Parts of this repeats what others have said, but I haven't seen the 3 way relationship spelled out clearly.

Tip Lead happens

Hip Counter increases edging and neutralizes rotation of femurs caused by tipping the feet.

Tip lead, while for most people increases hip counter, also decreases the increased edging that hip counter creates.

This 3 way relationship of tipping, hip counter, and tip lead is easy to play with in your ski boots playing with edging on a carpet. You'll see if you keep your boots in line with each other and tip your feet you'll be on edge. Then add the hip counter, point your belly button to the outside, or drive your inside hip forward. You'll see your tipping increases. Then keep that position and move your inside leg foward. You'll dramatically decrease your edging as you move that inside leg forward even though your inside hip is still foward and your belly button is still pointing to the outside of the turn.

The more inclined the turn, the more tip lead will creep in since that ski is attached to a now shorter leg.

The only other relationship that pops to mind is too much tip lead can increase the potential to shift people's balance to the backseat.

Becuase of this combination of forces, when I'm skiing with counter (inside hip forward, belly button pointing to the outside of the turn, however you best visuallize this), I also need to keep the (as Bob labeled it) active inside foot pulled back. Even with that pull back pressure, the inside foot will still tend to lead the outside ski. But this pressure to pull the inside foot back keeps the inside foot from getting so far forward that the edging I'm working to create is undone.

How you combine tipping at the feet, counter, inside foot pull back, lets you create a bunch of different outcomes depending on intent. Maximum edging will occur with feet tipped, hip countered, and inside foot pulled back (which still may leave it in a tip lead position - just not an excessive tip lead position).

I've left out counter balance (side crunch on opposite side of direction of turn) which also increases edging since that had not entered into the discussion so far and typically does not have a rotation component to be mangaged.

Carving is all about edge control. Learning what dials in more edging or what works against that helps. I hope I didn't break your request to keep physics (or in this case bio-mecahnical relationships) out of this.

Personally, what I think about when carving is being patient and letting the turn happen. It's very easy to not edge in such a way to match the speed and development of the turn by either under or over edging. Needless to say, then you'd have to pivot to not fall. A pure carve is a constant changing of your edging so you're making your skis track a line that matches your g-forces. The goal I try for when I'm working on pure carves is nice lines in the snow without smearing, a clean linking of nice gradual curves. (even if they are short curves)
post #25 of 26
Repeating because it is an excellent post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post
Parts of this repeats what others have said, but I haven't seen the 3 way relationship spelled out clearly.

Tip Lead happens

Hip Counter increases edging and neutralizes rotation of femurs caused by tipping the feet.

Tip lead, while for most people increases hip counter, also decreases the increased edging that hip counter creates.

This 3 way relationship of tipping, hip counter, and tip lead is easy to play with in your ski boots playing with edging on a carpet. You'll see if you keep your boots in line with each other and tip your feet you'll be on edge. Then add the hip counter, point your belly button to the outside, or drive your inside hip forward. You'll see your tipping increases. Then keep that position and move your inside leg foward. You'll dramatically decrease your edging as you move that inside leg forward even though your inside hip is still foward and your belly button is still pointing to the outside of the turn.

The more inclined the turn, the more tip lead will creep in since that ski is attached to a now shorter leg.

The only other relationship that pops to mind is too much tip lead can increase the potential to shift people's balance to the backseat.

Becuase of this combination of forces, when I'm skiing with counter (inside hip forward, belly button pointing to the outside of the turn, however you best visuallize this), I also need to keep the (as Bob labeled it) active inside foot pulled back. Even with that pull back pressure, the inside foot will still tend to lead the outside ski. But this pressure to pull the inside foot back keeps the inside foot from getting so far forward that the edging I'm working to create is undone.

How you combine tipping at the feet, counter, inside foot pull back, lets you create a bunch of different outcomes depending on intent. Maximum edging will occur with feet tipped, hip countered, and inside foot pulled back (which still may leave it in a tip lead position - just not an excessive tip lead position).

I've left out counter balance (side crunch on opposite side of direction of turn) which also increases edging since that had not entered into the discussion so far and typically does not have a rotation component to be mangaged.

Carving is all about edge control. Learning what dials in more edging or what works against that helps. I hope I didn't break your request to keep physics (or in this case bio-mecahnical relationships) out of this.

Personally, what I think about when carving is being patient and letting the turn happen. It's very easy to not edge in such a way to match the speed and development of the turn by either under or over edging. Needless to say, then you'd have to pivot to not fall. A pure carve is a constant changing of your edging so you're making your skis track a line that matches your g-forces. The goal I try for when I'm working on pure carves is nice lines in the snow without smearing, a clean linking of nice gradual curves. (even if they are short curves)
post #26 of 26
Nice post JM. +1
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