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Difficulty side slipping at higher speeds

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
At lower speeds I can either carve or side slip (initiate hokey stop) without any problems, but as soon as I reach higher speeds on blue slopes, no matter how hard I try to steer the skis to make them skid sideways, they only want to carve.

Initially I solved this problem by turning my upper body in the direction of the turn. (opposite of normal counter-rotation) And this seems to work pretty well, but then I read a couple of books on skiing and neither of those books mentioned the technique that I use.

So, my questions is, is the method I use to initiate a side slip at higher speeds correct, or I should use some other technique?

Thanks in advance!
post #2 of 27
Hi Doc!

Welcome to Epic. Your solution is effective, but not efficient. Next time, try bending your knees and ankles to sink down, then push up (i.e. unweight) before you try to turn your skis sideways to hockey stop. This will help stop the skis from wanting to carve. Remember to roll your ankles downhill after you've turned the skis so that they will skid. And keep your upper body facing down the hill to help improve balance.
post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the reply! I read about (what appears to be) this method in one of those books, but since it was not described well, I could not understand, how exactly it is done. Now, that you explained it to me in different words, I think I understand it well enough to try executing it.
post #4 of 27
If I had to guess, I'd say you might be standing on your heels when you do this.
post #5 of 27
drklop,

Quote:
If I had to guess, I'd say you might be standing on your heels when you do this.
I second that and also guessing that you are also leaning in on your uphill ski instead of being balanced between the skis.

RW
post #6 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
drklop,



I second that and also guessing that you are also leaning in on your uphill ski instead of being balanced between the skis.

RW
I agree with both of the possibilities. They often work in unison. At higher speeds it is more difficult to move with less intensity. As suggested above, try balancing more towards your down hill ski by moving your upper body towards it and use a lower edge angle.
post #7 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by drklop View Post
At lower speeds I can either carve or side slip (initiate hokey stop) without any problems, but as soon as I reach higher speeds on blue slopes, no matter how hard I try to steer the skis to make them skid sideways, they only want to carve.

Initially I solved this problem by turning my upper body in the direction of the turn. (opposite of normal counter-rotation) And this seems to work pretty well, but then I read a couple of books on skiing and neither of those books mentioned the technique that I use.

So, my questions is, is the method I use to initiate a side slip at higher speeds correct, or I should use some other technique?

Thanks in advance!
Did not read any other posting in this thread. Anyway, what you just did was "hip rotation". It puts your hips out over your skis and flattens your edge angles. Its also called banking due to the inclination without angulation you are doing. It also shifts weight onto your inside ski which adds to the reduced edge hold and makes skidding or side slipping easier. If you want a WC equivalent reference point just look at any WC event. Preferably a speed event, best are DH. As every skier comes into the goal area they need to brake their speed and they do exactly what you described.

There can be different reasons for why you cannot steer your skis into the turn. Usually the problem is just the opposite but there are situations when carving edge locked is not wanted. It can be an equipment thing. For instance on blades you cannot skidd very well. They are too short. If your skis are very good at carving they can also be very bad at skidding especially if they are short, lets say SL skis 165 or less with very sharp edges. I have a pair with almost no base bevel and they are totally impossible to skid especially at high speed. Also if your bindings are mounted very far forwards it makes skidding harder. If you are over canted skidding can also be difficult. I used to test skis and I allways started out with slow speed brushed and drifted turns to check out if the skis were suitable for that kind of skiing. It was interesting to ski lots of different skis and to see which ones were good at something particular of good at everything. At that time I thaught the Atomic SX11 was the epidome of skis, good for all kind of stuff like drifted or carved turns.

What you did was not totally wrong if nothing else worked. Im not surpriced that no book teaches this kind of move since its not what we normally want to do. Its considerd bad technique.
post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by drklop View Post
as soon as I reach higher speeds on blue slopes, no matter how hard I try to steer the skis to make them skid sideways, they only want to carve.
At the risk of asking a rhetorical question:

If this is the case, when you are going fast, how do you slow down? Run into something?
post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post
At the risk of asking a rhetorical question:

If this is the case, when you are going fast, how do you slow down? Run into something?
I was thinking the same thing. drklop doesn't state his skiing ability level.
Are you a beginner who is a hazard on the slopes going faster than he should, with no ability to stop if he has to. If so, put the skiing for dummies book down, and take a lesson.
Are you an intermediate or higher skier who sort of gets his tails hung up slightlywhen coming to a skidded stop. If so, it could be equipment, where the tail has a burr or railed and won't release. or it could be technique, where your sitting back and can't lighten your tails to allow them to skid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDK6
Also if your bindings are mounted very far forwards it makes skidding harder.
don't you mean back?
post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
don't you mean back?
There are many theories Im sure but according to one of them moving the binding forwards makes them less liable to skidd the tails. The general opinion is that moving the binding forward makes the skis turnier and it does, take women skis for instance that are designed that way, but if we step into the carving world and look at how skis function the longer the tail the better the carving abilities. There are other design factors offcourse but if you move a binding forwards on same ski this is what happens. I have moved all my bindings forwards on all my skis and they perform great. They are turnier and they carve better.
post #11 of 27
tdk, surely that only applies if you're in the back seat?
If you're pressing forwardforward, then there isn't as much pressure on the tails, so a long tail is more likely to skid/brush, but if you're leaning back, then you'll need the tail to support you.
post #12 of 27
Doc the first post is the answer to your Q. I would highly recomend a few lessens. The skis these days have more side cut and want to turn easaly on hard packed runs like blues. Its not to advisable to just go fast then try and stop buy just {hockey stopping} unless its an emergancy stop situation. You should always slow down to a moderate speed before you stop by anticapating were you would like to stop a head of time. You Q also may mean that you are simply having trouble CARVING your skis? If this is what you mean with the shaped skis you want to carve them simply buy rolling your ankles over in unison with a little bit of a wide stance. The method of {skidding} your turns is old school if you have newer skis. S turns is what youwant and your speed will be determaned buy how large or small the turns are and force in witch you initiate eace turn some what. We could describe things for hours on hear and nothing we say will beniffit you as much as a hour with a certified instructor can on the hill. Do your self a favor and get some Carving lessons. Ive been skiing for 40 years and am going in a clinic next week on carving. If i pick up one little detail that Im forgetting it was worth it to me. It does sound to me though that your trying to ski a new shaped ski old school and its trying to tell you not to ski it that way. New skis Carve. You roll them on there edges and the ski does the rest for you. Its realy quite a wonderfull advancement from unwieghting skidding rotating way of yesteryear. You can still beniffit buy unwieghting its just that the new shapes of skis requires less effort in doing so and they carve a turn not skid. Stopping in a skid is still the same as long as your ballanced over your skis not in the back seat. I think you Q was more about turnning though not stopping.? If there turnning when your tring to stop your leaning back way to far and like mentioned mabe to up right? One more thing, try to get a private lesson. In a group it might cost a bit less but you will benifit way more one on one.
post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post
tdk, surely that only applies if you're in the back seat?
If you're pressing forwardforward, then there isn't as much pressure on the tails, so a long tail is more likely to skid/brush, but if you're leaning back, then you'll need the tail to support you.
As I said, there are several theories. Cannot find a link to the pages where I read about this on the web but it all made sence. Anyway, a longer tail is less likely to skid and gives better support. This is one of the reasons speed skiers use longer skis. Modern skis are also designed to function with less forward pressure than before. Skis are shorter and the sidecut takes care of the turning. If you have your bindings mounted too far back then you need to pressure the tips more and thus tails will be more likely to skidd. I have found this to be true but there are many variables.
post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
there are many variables.
Indeed.

I found that when I tried a pair of skis with the bindings only slightly too far back that the tips tended to skid, not the tails. However my means of turning has been carving for a long time, I simply skied very fast everywhere. I can see if your main means of turning was skidding, then having the tails hang on while the tips let go and keep skidding would cause problems. I can also see where having the bindings too far forward would cause the tips to start a carve and if you didn't want to carve, that would be a problem too.

I think the OP is simple leaning in more at speed to maintain balance which is tipping his skis and making them carve. He needs to learn how to tip his skis at slow speeds, so he can carve there too. Skis tipped, skis carve a turn. Skis flat, skis go sideways. It's that simple.

Edit to add: skis going sideways at speed catch an edge and break your leg - don't do it!
post #15 of 27
I think 2-turns brings up the most important issue and that is OPs level. There is a whole generation skiers reaching the upper intermediate segment that are unable to snap out of edge locked turns. They cannot ski anything but groomed as long as its not too steep and they are a hazzard to themselves and to others. Also Whipper correctly brought up the first reply in this thread as holding valuable information.
post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I think 2-turns brings up the most important issue and that is OPs level. There is a whole generation skiers reaching the upper intermediate segment that are unable to snap out of edge locked turns. They cannot ski anything but groomed as long as its not too steep and they are a hazzard to themselves and to others. Also Whipper correctly brought up the first reply in this thread as holding valuable information.
Yep, 2nd post is good.
You can also leave the tips down and just lift the tails with your unweighting to get the tails around faster as the tips drag on the snow.
post #17 of 27
I think being his second post the owner of the thread may have forgotton the name of the site if not book marked. I know that happens to me some some times.
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Yep, 2nd post is good.
You can also leave the tips down and just lift the tails with your unweighting to get the tails around faster as the tips drag on the snow.

If the conditions permit.
post #19 of 27
DRKLOP,
Try these simple maneuvers: on a wide, blue slope, begin a traverse across the hill and slide forward diagonally at the same time, practice until you've mastered sliding on the diagonal, then slide about half way across and then engage your edges and ride out the edged (carved) turn uphill.
Practice, practice and practice.
Then begin a medium radius turn on edges, release the edges just before the apex of the turn and feather the skis around until just after the apex, then rein-gage the edges and finish turn.
You can control your speed this way. A blend of skills in the same turn.
Hope this helps.
post #20 of 27
This is probably little help, but learn to do a hockey stop on ice skates.
post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
If the conditions permit.
Offcourse its also conditions but would it not be easier to pivot the skis arround the boots or closer to the boots than pivotting them arround the tips. At high speed that is....
post #22 of 27
I think that the OP is riding the tails of his skis, so as the speed goes up, they dig in more, and make it impossible to pivot.

The solution is to stop the tail gunning.
post #23 of 27
I hear you BigE, and I can see that happening, but I still bet he is just tipping the skis more at higher speeds due to banking his turns to stay in balance and the skis hold better when on edge.
post #24 of 27
OP said that when speed was up he could not side slip but on slower speeds he could. It has something to do with speed. What changes thing when speed is up? Ghost, you should know! BigE, what movements should be used for steering, brushing, sideslipping, skidding, drifting, scarving etc. OP said he rotated his hips out. That decreases edge angle but is not a very good movement since its wrong by all classical standards. But is that what OP is after, unefficient skiing. In that case he did all the right movements. What do you think?
post #25 of 27
My suggestion is to start skidding tighter and tighter turns to get a feel for it. As the turns get tighter, you will eventually find the right balance to pivot and skid at any speed.
post #26 of 27
I think he is grinding his tails into the snow so hard, he cannot inefficiently rotate his upper body to twist the skis across the direction of travel.

He first needs to get centered. Then he needs to flex/retract to release both edges and pivot the legs only.

To practice the pivot, he can do that at home on two pieces of paper and a carpet. With hands on hips, and making sure that the hips do not rotate, turn the feet. The axis of rotation must be just infront of the shin. Not on the heel or ball of foot.

Then on snow, he needs to jump and make and 'X' pattern. This will give him instant feedback as to where his weight sits.... if the tips of the tails are higher than the tails when he jumps up, his weight is aft. He should try to make tip and tail come off the snow at equal heights.

Then he needs to do this same move when he wants to stop, and get the skis across the fall-line.


This is the industrial strength solution.
post #27 of 27
TDK the thing that changes with more speed is more banking the skis naturally tip more at higher speeds - it's like riding a bike.

BigE's solution will work; he's right about the tails too. You had to go and tell him. The last thing we need is another person scraping off the snow and polishing the ice left behind instead of carving groves in the snow.

(there was someone doing that yesterday at the hill all day - just skidding short radius turns at slow speed all day long! Just as I was mentioning it to someone on the chair and pointing out the side of the hill where the ice was finally nicely polished and telling him the hero snow was on the other side, the guy decided to move to the other side of the hill. It made me realize how lazy I had gotten this year and how much I needed to sharpen my edges.)

Still, I suppose it's always good that people area able to put on the brakes when needed.
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