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Bump skiing

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 
Is there other way other than skiing down the zipper line?
Zipper line seem way too fast for me

Is this another way? skiing on the side of the bump? or round? or across?

.......\
.......o\o
.....o...\.o
....o.....\.o
....o......\o
.....o....o \
.......o o...\

or
.......- -
.......o o -
.....o.....o -
....o.......o -
....o.......o -
.....o.....o -
.......o o -

or

......\o o
.....o.\..o
....o...\..o
....o....\.o
.....o....o
......o o..\

[ November 15, 2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: newbie ]
post #2 of 40
If the zipper line is too fast, meander in and out of the line of troughs. Going on top and across the bumps works, but only if they are not very deep. As soon as serious troughs form, you will be force into them. Try this...

......................X
.......o o ......X.o o....... ..o o...... ..o o
.....o.....o....Xo.....o......o.....o......o.....o
....o.......o.X.o.......o....o.......o....o....... o
....o.......o X.o.......o...o.......o. ..o.......o
.....o....o ....X.o....o......o....o.. ....o....o
.......o o.........X X..........o o..........o o
..............o o ........X X .........o o
............o.....o......o.....oX. ..o.....o
...........o.......o....o.......oX..o.......o
...........o.......o ...o.......oX..o.......o
............o....o .......o....oX....o....o
..............o o..........o X ........o o
.......o o ........X X.... .. ..o o...... ..o o
.....o.....o...X.o.....o......o.....o......o.....o
....o.......o..Xo.......o....o.......o....o....... o
....o.......o .X.o.......o...o.......o. ..o.......o
.....o....o .....Xo....o......o....o.. ....o....o
.......o o........Xo o..........o o..........o o

I hope that is easy to see, I must have too much time. It is like the zipper line but when you come around each bump, go into the NEXT trough and not the one infront of you. This normally means going over part of the tail or head of another mogul, but because so many people traverse through them it's always managable.

Also, remember that the zipper line does not have to be fast! If you think of each bump as a speed break and carefully rotate your skis into each turn, then you can effectively go slow in the zipper line. Most people find trouble with this because they don't EXTEND their legs back down into the troughs as they manuever over the bumbs. This means they loose contact with the snow briefly and can't control their speed. They end up bouncing from mogul to mogul and gain uncontrollable speed down the zipper line. So remember not only to absorb (it gets all the attention), but also to extend your legs in the moguls.
post #3 of 40
Newbie,

The zipper is not only fast, it’s hard on your body! : Although I like to ski it on occasion I teach a much easier way of skiing the bumps to my older students. By using the front, top and sides of the bump, you can really control your speed. It gives you much more time to decide where to go next by allowing you to make more pivoting type turns if needed. You should try to stay in the fall-line most of the time. But it’s not written in stone that you must always be in it. Sometime a direction change is required to find a new line. All in all, by practicing what is suggested above, it will make you a better zipper line skier in the long run. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] ------------------Wigs
post #4 of 40
Competition bump skiers always ski the "zipperline" mainly because speed seems to be more of a reward and scores better than turns and style. It seems like by the time they are at the end of the run they are almost straightlining the course.

Almost the reverse of competitions in the old days, where style and turn completion really counted. Many times the person who crossed the finish line first, wasn't the winner.

Skiing bumps is still a passion of mine. Although I can ski the zipperline pretty nicely, I don't usually to much. Mainly because of my age, my back and I can't catch my freakin breath fast enough anymore. I mostly ski the tops and sides of big icey bumps and the sides and troughs of soft, spring or powder bumps. On deep powder days, just let em ride baby.

Anyway you can ski bumps works. The key is you have the balls to ski bumps. So many people avoid mogul runs for some reason, mostly fear of looking bad to others. By doing this, they are limiting themselves as skiers and missing out on some of the best terrain resorts have to offer. Something they will always be envious of, and never be a complete skier.
post #5 of 40
Thread Starter 
There has to be a certain amount of skidding if you were to "complete your turn" isn't it? Without skidding, I fell like I am going too fast. Is skidding wrong?
post #6 of 40
>>There has to be a certain amount of skidding if you were to "complete your turn" isn't it? <<

There can be. I want to say that skiing with a flat ski, which will create some skidding isn’t the only way to ski bumps. And no, it isn't wrong to skid. If you want to control your speed and reduce the wear and tear on your body, keeping the skis flat so that you can pivot and steer the ski more efficiently is fun and a great way to learn how to ski bumps. There is some edging done even with a flat pivoting ski. But you will find that there's less edging and more pivoting being done.------------Wigs
post #7 of 40
Quote:
Originally posted by Wigs:
>>There has to be a certain amount of skidding if you were to "complete your turn" isn't it? <<

There can be. I want to say that skiing with a flat ski, which will create some skidding isn’t the only way to ski bumps. And no, it isn't wrong to skid. If you want to control your speed and reduce the wear and tear on your body, keeping the skis flat so that you can pivot and steer the ski more efficiently is fun and a great way to learn how to ski bumps. There is some edging done even with a flat pivoting ski. But you will find that there's less edging and more pivoting being done.------------Wigs
for truly good bump skiing, skiing on a "flat ski" is something you really want to avoid. with a flat ski there's no edge pressure, and hence no speed control. you should only be off the edges for a fraction of a second after you absorb and roll the kness into the next turn.

btw, those who think the zipperline is too rough on the knees are probably just doing it wrong. if you maintain constant pressure on the snow, i.e. through proper extention, there's much less of an impact in the absorption phase. truly good bump skiing is smooth...i've seen world cup pros ski bumps while carrying equipmnet, talking to friends, checking out the scenery, etc...it's just effortless (and incredible to watch.)
post #8 of 40
Adema,

I think the question by newbie was, "Is there other way other than skiing down the zipper line?
Zipper line seem way too fast for me

Is this another way? skiing on the side of the bump? or round? or across?"

And the answer that I gave is another way to ski the bumps. I really don’t think that someone that’s always on their edges in the bumps is doing a very good job controlling their speed. It’s my belief that someone who is on a somewhat flat ski, ( not totally flat, but more on the flat side than edged or railed. ) and is able to rotate the ankles or feet to steer through most of the turn, and then an edge set or check if needed is much more efficient at controlling ones speed in the bumps. Again, the question was is there another way. Think about what an edged carving ski is going to do in the bumps.------------Wigs
post #9 of 40
Newbie's question was "Is there a way to ski the bumps, other than the zipperline?" Of course there is! Biker showed the easiest line in his post above, IF you avoid skiing the ruts and just ski the sides of the moguls and the ridges between the ruts. You can ski over the tops, and go from top to top without ever dropping into the ruts. Most new mogul skiers can ski those lines pretty easily, but they don't even see those lines until someone shows it to them.
Sometimes you need to ride a flat ski, sometimes you need to edge, and sometimes you need to pivot. You might even need to hop or step or snowplow to get through. Except for the young and fast, zipperline is beyond the ability of most of us, but everyone can ski moguls one way or another.

John
post #10 of 40
Quote:
Originally posted by Wigs:
Adema,

I think the question by newbie was, "Is there other way other than skiing down the zipper line?
Zipper line seem way too fast for me

Is this another way? skiing on the side of the bump? or round? or across?"

And the answer that I gave is another way to ski the bumps. I really don’t think that someone that’s always on their edges in the bumps is doing a very good job controlling their speed. It’s my belief that someone who is on a somewhat flat ski, ( not totally flat, but more on the flat side than edged or railed. ) and is able to rotate the ankles or feet to steer through most of the turn, and then an edge set or check if needed is much more efficient at controlling ones speed in the bumps. Again, the question was is there another way. Think about what an edged carving ski is going to do in the bumps.------------Wigs
well, i'm only repeating what former olympic and world cup mogul skiers have taught me (at mogul camp). when i said you should always be on the edges, i did not mean that you should carve nice round turns in the bumps. instead, your turns should be more "J" shaped with the quick curl of the "J" coming right after absorption on the face of the mogul. when you're really cranking down the zipperline, there's almost no curl, but you're still using quick edge changes for speed control.

unless you've had good (new-school) mogul instruction, these concepts are usually counterintuitve and difficult to visualize. but trust me, this is how the pros do it..i wish i could explain it better. suffice it to say that a "flat ski" is not the most efficient way to ski bumps.
post #11 of 40
Adema there ain't a bump that I have met in 40 years of skiing moguls that I didn't like. My favorite being volkswagon size bumps after a freezing rain.

I can assure you that I no longer ski them with a little J turn after absorption on the bump face but instead, by a large latteral extension and a round short turn. The little J turn throws you momentarily out of balance. I couldn't ski volkswagons of solid ice without the use of poles with a little J turn. J turns pound too much and don't allow for constant even speed control. I now ski a modified zipperline with a round turn.

I will concede that the pros ski bumps differently but their technique is dictated by the rules of judging and their relative athletic ability. Speed control ain't one of the criterion. The way that bumps are presently taught scares a lot of older people away from the true fun of bump skiing.
post #12 of 40
I'd like to make an observation about the current crop of elite bumpers.

Adema- if you'd watch real slow motion footage of the top skiers on the WC, you'd see that they actually spend very little time on their edges, to any degree which could be referred to as carving. As Wigs has suggested, they actually pivot/slide with a great deal of edge control to assist in their speed control.
I am amazed at how athletic they are, and how proficient they are at their task. But don't confuse what they are doing with with any definition of carving.

Back to the original question-
Try skiing the high ground, as suggested. It will require a little extra effort, but the rewards are great (and you'll look good to the people riding the lift...).

:
post #13 of 40
Adema,

Again it seems that you have not read the original post. The man said that he didn’t like skiing the zipper line because it was to tough on him. He asked if there was another way to ski the bumps, which myself and others try to give him, another way. I don’t think that the discussion was on what was the best or correct way to ski the bumps. And what we have suggested to Newbie is, believe me, not wrong. What the world cuppers do is for that kind of bump skiing. Skiing for bucks I call it, although they are not getting paid, at least hard cash wise. To win requires that one get to the bottom with the best time, had the best air and who looked the grooviest. The last thing that’s going through Newbies’s thought pattern at the top of a bump run is, how fast can I ski this run? How much air can I get? Maybe a couple of helicopters, yeah, that’s it! I sure hope everybody’s watching on the chair. This kind of skiing is for the pros and the young, which it sounds like you are, young. I’m not saying that the bump skiing that you suggest is wrong. I’m saying that it’s not what Newbie was looking for.----------Wigs
post #14 of 40
Quote:
Originally posted by Wigs:
Adema,

Again it seems that you have not read the original post. The man said that he didn’t like skiing the zipper line because it was to tough on him. He asked if there was another way to ski the bumps, which myself and others try to give him, another way. I don’t think that the discussion was on what was the best or correct way to ski the bumps. And what we have suggested to Newbie is, believe me, not wrong. What the world cuppers do is for that kind of bump skiing. Skiing for bucks I call it, although they are not getting paid, at least hard cash wise. To win requires that one get to the bottom with the best time, had the best air and who looked the grooviest. The last thing that’s going through Newbies’s thought pattern at the top of a bump run is, how fast can I ski this run? How much air can I get? Maybe a couple of helicopters, yeah, that’s it! I sure hope everybody’s watching on the chair. This kind of skiing is for the pros and the young, which it sounds like you are, young. I’m not saying that the bump skiing that you suggest is wrong. I’m saying that it’s not what Newbie was looking for.----------Wigs
ummm...no, i think it's you who's missing the point. i was not responding to "newbie", i was responding to you - hence the direct quotes of your posts.

you seem, like many on this board, slightly envious of youth or slightly bitter about your inability to emulate young skiers. whether or not i would fall in your "young" category, you're correct that i aspire to the world cup style of bump skiing (i even throw helis under the chairlift sometimes...gasp!!) so what?? when done correctly, it happens a very efficient way to ski moguls. with a little coaching and practice, anyone, perhaps even "Newbie", can learn to do it. the zipperline is NOT just for pros or the young - i've personally seen 50+ year old skiers just rip the zipperline - nor does it have to be fast and abusive on your body - you CAN ski the "fast line slow"...or whatever.

{edit] vailsnopro: in case you forgot, we've disagreed on this topic plenty of times before. [img]smile.gif[/img] i have repeatedly acknowledged that mogul pros do not execute "pure carving". however, what i was saying (or trying to) was that bump skiers are using quick edge changes to control speed (yes, speed control IS important...not for slowing down so much as avoiding crashes). a flat ski gives you no speed control whatsoever. to "dive the tips" into the troughs (critical), you need to be on the edges if only for a fraction of a second before the next bump. i'm not a coach or instructor so my explanations are probably lacking.

[ November 19, 2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Adema ]
post #15 of 40
Adema:
Quote:
you seem, like many on this board, slightly envious of youth or slightly bitter about your inability to emulate young skiers
You bet you're sweet bippy. Youth is wasted on the young. I would have so much more fun in the bumps with young knees. I still wouldn't go back to skiing them like the pros do. I got more sense than that now. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

On your statement about the way the pros ski the bumps.
Quote:
when done correctly, it happens a very efficient way to ski moguls.
Maybe efficient but certainly not the most efficient way to ski bumps. If it were, the 70+ crowd would be doing it.

To your response to Vailsnopro:
Quote:
however, what i was saying (or trying to) was that bump skiers are using quick edge changes to control speed (yes, speed control IS important...not for slowing down so much as avoiding crashes). a flat ski gives you no speed control whatsoever. to "dive the tips" into the troughs (critical), you need to be on the edges if only for a fraction of a second before the next bump.
What I want to know from you is, what are the pros doing with their edges in between their quick edge sets?. Could it be that their skis are fairly flat or in the air? Ouch. The pros are on the edges for a fraction of a second for deflexsional control, not for speed control. In bumps, I am on the edges most of the time but the ski is still fairly flat. I used to ski with a quick edge set at the end of a J turn but I must admit, I like the round turn with progressive edging much better and there is virtually no pounding what so ever. Not until I switched did I have the kind of control it takes to ski the bumps after a freezing rain. With the technique that I use the bumps are less effort to ski when they are solid ice. The technique work equally well with telemark. Quick edge sets sure don't. My technique would win no points in a mogul competition by todays rules.

By the way, I prefer a lot of shape to any ski that I ski the bumps with.
post #16 of 40
I have to agree with what Adema said about the zipper line not being too harsh on ones knees if one skis with good technique AND is not trying to maintain competition style speed. My own approach is smooth and not too fast so I try to ski a long ways down the direct fall line without stopping. Generally a key to good bump skiing is speed control and a relaxed upper body position. As to your question newbie, I'll offer a bit of advice on my own style which is like other bump skiers to some extent and unique in a few ways. Note I avoid those hard icy moguls Pierre loves. (: That's mainly because I ski where cold dry packed powder snow is the norm which makes the whole experience less brutal when out of position.

First one cannot just tell a novice bump skier to ski this line or that and expect anything much positive to result. Its a lot more complicated. Otherwise there would not be so few good skiers that ski them well. It is more about platforming against the side of the mounds and edging down on the sides of the mounds so lets leave "carving" out of it. In any case bump skiers have several variations of turns and body movements which might be used depending on what is sensed on any specific mogul so the below is more idealized than continuous reality.

I've modified your diagram:
v = path of ski
\ = ~110 degrees, / = ~70 degrees ski orientation at end of compression point of turn
h = slanting rut hole in front of mound, t = top mound of bump
s = point on lower spine of bump, n = nose of bump at lowest point where end of a steep face occurs

.......h h..........h h..........h h..
1....o.t...o....../o.t.o.......o.t..o
....o.......o...vo......o....o.......o
....o..s...o ..vo...s...o...o..s....o
.....o....o .....v.o....o.....o.....o
.......n n........v...n n.........n n.
..............h h .v.......h h.
.2..........o..t..o\......o.t..o.
...........o.......ov...o.......o
...........o..s...ov...o..s....o.
............o....o .v....o.....o
..............n n...v.......n n . .
.......h h ........vh h.........h h.
.3...o.....o...../o.....o......o....o..
....o.......o...vo.......o...o.......o
....o...s..o ...vo..s...o...o..s....o
.....o....o .....v.o....o.....o....o
.......n n........v..n n........n n.
.......h h........v.h h..........h h..
..4..o.t...o....../o.t.o.......o.t..o
....o.......o...vo......o....o.......o
....o..s...o ..vo...s...o...o..s....o
.....o....o .....v.o....o.....o.....o
.......n n........v...n n.........n n.

There is a location on each approaching bump (1,2,3,4) that varies a bit with the differing bump shapes but is typically just above the end of the slanting rut hole (h) and part of the mound (t) behind it. The slanting rut hole may just be a slanting shelf. It is against the side of the mound where I end up orienting thedirection of my skis so they are pointed at approximately 70 degrees (left turn \ ) or 110 degrees (right turns / ). There ones skis, at the end of ones turn, will deflect off more smoothly, where you can dissipate some energy by absorbing or glancing against the mound (platforming). The fact that I use the side of the mound instead of center allows me to delay the absorbtion period by relaxing into it while gravity pulls me along the side of it and down. In fact I try not to allow the mound to bounce me up much by instead smearing (aka absorbing) into it. The lower my upper body mass is at the end of that transition, the less vertical distance and thus less accelleration due to gravity, will occur down to the next bump. Also by having your torso mass lower at that point with skis delayed lower and back, one can leverage better off that body mass back into the slope in order to edge into the side of the bump during leg extention. At the point of maximum compression where you are now starting to rebound, it is at that point, initiation of the next turn occurs such that the rebound without further directional forces will end up in the next such location. In other words I don't look down and then steer my skis toward these approaching points but rather I have synchronized into a sort of bouncing rhythm so I rebound and hit the next points on each turn without much focus on the rest of the mogul shape. I focus into a mental visual zone where I mainly see just the mound tops ahead often several bumps ahead. I take a route (v) which is more directed along the side of a bump and end up at the lower end of the hole often where a knee is present at the top of the next rut. Although that is a more direct route, the dynamic of my edged ski digs into the steeper slope versus the flat bottom rut and thus has more ability to do something without picking up speed. During the time I am going down this side of the bump I am letting gravity pull my body down while allowing some level of upper body quiet relaxation. The lower body legs are actively pushing downward to get more edge in off the quiet upper body which is leading.

If the object of your attention is the ugly hole in the rut (h), one may awkwardly smash into the opposite lip at an angle. Many bump skiers time the rotation of their turns so at that point, their skis are relatively parallel to the hole and thus ride up onto the mound at (t). But with big bumps, the rut may have an awkward lip. They tend to travel to that point via the low channel aka rut, between adjacent bumps.

Now many times the shape of the bump is such that one can instead make a big round turn up on the bump by arcing around and down the rut. There are a whole bag of turning trick in a mogul field because there are a whole lot of shapes to contend with and I can't begin to describe them all. -dave
post #17 of 40
pierre,

as regards the pros and their technique between edge sets, i think you're right...their skis ARE flat or (more likely) airborn. they're moving so fast from bump to bump that they can maintain control with those quick checks. they do NOT ski on a "flat ski" - when their skis are on the snow, they're on the edges.

obviously, theirs (the pros') is the extreme example of zipperline skiing, and there are many levels of speed below their all-out approach. my point all along has been that the zipperline CAN be skied smoothly, albeit more slowly, by applying more edge pressure on the snow throughout the turns. regardless of the speed at which you choose to do it, the zipperline technique is essentially the same...absorb. knee roll, extend...absorb, knee roll, extend.

you know i bet we have more similarities than differences in our respective styles...we just have different ways of explaining or visualizing the same basic techniques.
post #18 of 40
Quote:
you know i bet we have more similarities than differences in our respective styles...we just have different ways of explaining or visualizing the same basic techniques.
Adema until a few years ago I would have said that I agree with this statement but I don't anymore. I can still ski zipperline as you say quite effectively, at slower speed and with minmal impact but, there is still a noticeable (to me) impact on the knees. A couple years ago I underwent a dramatic shift in focus and technique that threw what I thought about mogul skiing out the window.

I had always assumed that mogul skiing was for the young at heart and that I would have to give it up. Any impact no matter how small it is, is still impact on the knees. Now I can ski moguls all day long. I still cannot take much of any impact before I am reaching for the pain killers.

I am skiing nearly the same line as I did with zipper line but where the flexion and extention take place is different. I am extending on the face of the bump, allowing my legs to extend laterally across the face and onto the edges very early at the beginning of my turn then, I am sucking the legs back under me as I decend the back side of the mogul. My skis remain in contact with the snow progressively edging the whole time. The extention in the bumps has very little vertical motion and great lateral motion. It requires a change of focus and the way you read the lines in the bumps. It works even in the Midwest where our moguls are rediculous diamond figures of ice.

What this technique does require is a frightening leap of faith by leading with the body over the bump. Instead of the knees coming up under you on top of the bump you are extending your body ahead of the skis over the bump. I have yet to find a way to teach that effectively so that the technique can be easily learned. I have trouble getting skiers to understand and allow their bodies to do the movements on the groomed let alone in the bumps. I am still looking for that elusive magic bullet before the real one gets me. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #19 of 40
I don't think the zipperline is particularly hard on the knees, especially if you can stay out of the back seat. OTOH all that absorption is very hard on the lower back, in my experience. Those of us who were trapped in cubicle world too long frequently suffer lower back problems that make mogul skiing a real challenge.

Johnbert
post #20 of 40
Pierre,

[quote]Originally posted by Pierre:

I am skiing nearly the same line as I did with zipper line but where the flexion and extention take place is different. I am extending on the face of the bump, allowing my legs to extend laterally across the face and onto the edges very early at the beginning of my turn then, I am sucking the legs back under me as I decend the back side of the mogul. My skis remain in contact with the snow progressively edging the whole time. The extention in the bumps has very little vertical motion and great lateral motion. It requires a change of focus and the way you read the lines in the bumps. It works even in the Midwest where our moguls are rediculous diamond figures of ice.

What this technique does require is a frightening leap of faith by leading with the body over the bump. Instead of the knees coming up under you on top of the bump you are extending your body ahead of the skis over the bump. I have yet to find a way to teach that effectively so that the technique can be easily learned. I have trouble getting skiers to understand and allow their bodies to do the movements on the groomed let alone in the bumps. I am still looking for that elusive magic bullet before the real one gets me. [img]smile.gif[/img] END QUOTE

I’m right with you on this. Isn’t it great to still be able to ski the fall-line and not get beat to death. Not really beat to death, but I just can't do it like that everyday anymore. I to can still get in the zipper and mix it up. It’s just so much easier doing it our way. I’ll bet our friend, Adema, could not even come close to skiing the fall-line as slow as we can do it. That’s one of the tasks I put out there for my students. How slow can you go and stay in the fall-line, AND NOT RUN OVER ME! : I’ve had many good bumpers who rip in the zipper say to me, “How do you do that?????“ . And from reading what you have written, I’ll bet you have had the same question ask to you. Yeah, we can still POUND the zipper-line. But I can get from point A to point B and not POUND my body to death. If our friend, Adema starts skiing 140 days a season instead of 30, and gets a little older, he will be looking for another way, don’t you think.

Adema,

What ever. : -------------Wigs
post #21 of 40
Wigs wrote:
Quote:
I’ve had many good bumpers who rip in the zipper say to me, “How do you do that?????“ . And from reading what you have written, I’ll bet you have had the same question ask to you.
Actually Wigs I am almost totally ingnored by the good bumpers who barely notice me. I know why. I have video taped my bump skiing in tough bumps and it looks as if I am out for a Sunday stroll. I don't see much of anything going on in the video and everything looks like its in slow motion. Kinda boring.

The only time the good bumpers wonder what is going on, is when I ditch the poles or, after that elusive freezing rain when I still make it look like a Sunday stroll. They assume the bumps are much softer than what they would have guessed and they venture in.

Most of the people asking me "How do you do that" are the 50+ crowd who are mesmorized by total relaxed appearance of the run. The older crowd rush to get on the chair lift with me. Its the 60+ crowd that want to book a lesson. Not one kid has inquired. That's :

Edit: Who's got the bucks anyway????

[ November 20, 2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #22 of 40
pierre,

i guess i don't understand this technique of yours. i'm a visual learner so i'd probably need to see it to get it. but if it works for you, such that you can ENJOY (key word) mogul skiing, more power to you. i'm one of the few in my circle who actually ENJOYS bumps.

wigs,

once again, the zipperline DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ABUSIVE, a fact to which several others on this thread have already attested. and, i'd be happy to demonstrate how one CAN ski the zipperline slowly. a little more edge pressure, more "completed" J-turns, and there you have it. how about you take up MY challenge and throw down some spins or grabs in the park? don't be too bitter, ok?
post #23 of 40
Adema, you might say that I am absolutely addicted to bumps. I won my first competition in 1968 and skied bumps almost to the exclusion of everything else until about 10 years ago. I won my last competition two years ago in the 30+ catagory against alpine skiers while on telemark gear. I didn't expect to win anything that day. The closest competitor to my age was 10 years my junior. My knees will no longer take even the easy zipper line approach, as you might say, for more than a few turns. I like to ski bumps all day.

Throw down some grabs in the park you say! The only thing I am throwin down for some grabs is my pants, momma and the pain killers. I may not be quite that bad but I don't have much desire for air other than and occasional rock band or two.

Quote:
wigs,

once again, the zipperline DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ABUSIVE
Tell that to Ott, Larry C and Ric H just to throw down a few names on this board.

STILL addicted to moguls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]

[ November 20, 2002, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #24 of 40
Hi all--

Thought I'd throw in a little animation that I just put together.

We've discussed, in many threads, the movements of absorbing moguls--the flexing and extending, and fore-aft movements that are essential for both balance and for controlling the pressure in the centers of the skis and preventing "shin bang." I've described the movements as not so much "up and down," like pistons, but as "circular," like moving the feet in a reverse bicycle pedal stroke. I've posted the following illustration to show what I mean:



I've suggested staring at this illustration until you can actually see the "motion." This worked for some people, but others have had a hard time with it. So, finally, I've put it in motion. Here's what it looks like:



Here, you can clearly see the circular motion of the feet that I described. Note too that the ankles and boots are NOT flexing--the angle of the shin to the skis remains constant throughout the cycle. What do you think?



Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ December 26, 2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #25 of 40
Hi Bob,

From frames E-F, what stops you from getting boosted off the top of the bump?

Also, if the animation were on a slope, would the skier's back appear not to move and remain straight up and down?
post #26 of 40
Hi Warren--good questions!

As the skier's skis rise up the mogul (frames E-F in the still illustration), he ACTIVELY retracts his legs--pulls them up beneath his body. This is exactly the opposite of what he would do if he wanted to launch big air off the bump, in which case he'd EXTEND his legs as he skied up the bump.

This active, muscular retraction is one third of the key to absorbing bumps, and keeping your skis glued to the snow. The second third is the active EXTENSION of your legs as you ski down the back side of the bump (frames h-j). This extension is necessary to prepare you for the next retraction phase, which comes up VERY quickly when you're skiing fast! The final piece is the circular motion of the feet that ties in the critical fore-aft component of the movement, and without which you'd slam your shins and get bucked forward on the uphill side of the bump, and end up way in the back seat on the downhill side.

All these are very much learned movements--skills that need focused practice. They are hardly innate. Indeed, the reflex we're born with (the "walking reflex") causes us to EXTEND all weight-bearing joints in response to pressure on the soles of our feet, and to RELAX when the pressure stops--which causes exactly the wrong movement for absorbing bumps! Combine that with the fact that we usually start a turn on TOP of the bump, and that most skiers start their turns with an UP movement, and you can see why smooth mogul skiing is so elusive and difficult for so many people.

Since we come hardwired for the wrong movements, we've got to tear out that wiring--lots of practice! And nowhere more than moguls does the bad habit of extending ("up and around") to start a turn haunt us! Until those habits change, moguls are a painful experience, and you are limited to very slow speeds--like a car with bad shocks.

Second question-- "Also, if the animation were on a slope, would the skier's back appear not to move and remain straight up and down?"

No! To see what it would look like on a hill, it's almost (not quite) as simple as tilting your monitor at the desired angle. It is another myth that the back should remain upright all the time, and that the head must remain at the same level. Remember that the key to keeping the pressure on the skis even is to keep your center of mass (not your head) from moving up and down. To accomplish this, when your feet come up, something has to go down, and vice-versa--just as I've illustrated it. Here's a photo sequence of an international-level mogul competitor, showing these movements in real life:



Of course, again, these are the movements of keeping the skis glued to the snow surface, maintaining equal pressure throughout the cycle. That's only one extreme of the realm of pressure management--with the other extreme being "big air" off the bump. As with anything in skiing, there is no "right way"--the technique must match your intent, and your intent is up to you!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

EDIT--since this message starts a new page in the forum, I'll link to the animation and illustration again:





[ December 27, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #27 of 40
Hello Bob,

Thanks much for your extremely lucid posts on this and other topics. I have a few questions about this topic. First, is the back-pedaling you describe and illustrate a result of encountering terrain changes in the bumps (reaction), or is it an active idea/process you consider while skiing bumps (action)? In other words, does thinking about back-pedaling while skiing bumps actually help? For instance, in frame 4 of your photo montage (corresponding, I guess, to frame E of your cartoon), the skier's feet are pretty far out in front of the hips. Is that a reaction to hitting the bump, or is that something the skier does in preparation to reaching the bump?

My second question... Do you use active retraction and extension even when skiing a relatively indirect line in the bumps? Or are there conditions where you just allow your feet and legs to react to terrain changes?

My third and final (for now [img]smile.gif[/img] ) question... I find that when I ski a relatively direct line in the bumps, I can still approach each bump with my skis relatively across the fall line by "swishing" out my tails at the bottom of each bump. That allows me to approach each bump as if I took a rounder line. Is this a bad habit that I should replace by working on always taking a rounder line in the bumps when I want to ski them slowly, or is this a functional technique?

Thanks in advance,

stmbtres
post #28 of 40
Great topic! As another young thinking 50 year old who loves bumps and is doing his best to learn to ski them well, I can't wait until tomorrow to try out Bob's techniques! I'm amazed at how many people say "moguls? won't go near 'em!". To me skiing moguls or a bumped up slope late in the day is more fun than smooth groomers.
A quick story- last year I won (in a drawing-not in the competition although I did place 3rd) a pair of K2 Lava Lamp mogul skis. I had them mounted up and started using them a couple of weeks ago. I've gotten comments on the chair such as " still like those straight skis huh?" I usually reply "These are my mogul skis-my shaped skis are in the locker" which gets the "I hate moguls" comments.
The K2s ARE good in moguls-its my technique that needs work. Keep the advice coming and keep bumpin'!
post #29 of 40
Quote:
Originally posted by stmbtres:
Hello Bob,

Thanks much for your extremely lucid posts on this and other topics. I have a few questions about this topic. First, is the back-pedaling you describe and illustrate a result of encountering terrain changes in the bumps (reaction), or is it an active idea/process you consider while skiing bumps (action)? In other words, does thinking about back-pedaling while skiing bumps actually help? For instance, in frame 4 of your photo montage (corresponding, I guess, to frame E of your cartoon), the skier's feet are pretty far out in front of the hips. Is that a reaction to hitting the bump, or is that something the skier does in preparation to reaching the bump?

My second question... Do you use active retraction and extension even when skiing a relatively indirect line in the bumps? Or are there conditions where you just allow your feet and legs to react to terrain changes?

My third and final (for now [img]smile.gif[/img] ) question... I find that when I ski a relatively direct line in the bumps, I can still approach each bump with my skis relatively across the fall line by "swishing" out my tails at the bottom of each bump. That allows me to approach each bump as if I took a rounder line. Is this a bad habit that I should replace by working on always taking a rounder line in the bumps when I want to ski them slowly, or is this a functional technique?

Thanks in advance,

stmbtres
i'm sure bob will respond but i think i can answer a few of your questions.

1. the "back-pedaling" is something that results naturally from staying forward throughout the absorb/extend cycle. you should feel like your "falling down" the backside of each bump. if you've ever dropped into a halfpipe on skis/skates/skateboards, it's kind of the same feeling. whenever i start getting backseat in the bumps (usually when i'm tired), i remind myself to be patient and let my weight "flow" over each bump. it's hard to explain but it's a very cool feeling when done right.

2. your feet will get in front of your hips but only for an instant as you rise up over the face of the bump. despite how it may look in bob's diagrams, you're never really in the backseat.

3. as far as active absorbtion/extension goes, i think you need it sometimes but not always. i've been skiing bumps so much for so long that i absorb and extend over every contour without me really thinking about it. i can actually ski bumpy terrain with my eyes closed. you will eventually just develop this "feel" for the snow. i think this is why bump skiing can improve your all-around skills so much.

just my .02.

[ December 28, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Adema ]
post #30 of 40
Pierre – Have you widened your stance? I have found, swimming up stream from the how I use to ski bumps, a wider stance and maintaining shin contact with both boots seems to take the “beat” away from the bump and improve my stability. My feet are quicker with the availability of two edges if I need them and I just seem to have a lot better absorption and extension. Maybe I have improved my stance? One thing is for sure my CM flowing downhill is much improved by keeping better contact on both boots as much as you really can.

As far as teaching bumps I still feel a good solid pivot slip is the best way to start a new bump skier. I know everyone says short turns is a real plus for a starting bump skier but here in the Midwest we have a few other problems with our bumps the big mountains don’t have. I use to start with a stem turn but have pretty much thrown that out the window. I have found in most instances “control” is what the skier wants to start with and if you can give them what they what moving their CM into the turn is not as hard to convince them to do. I also find the pivot slip teaches the skier to keep their feet underneath them and then they can easily re-direct their skis the direction they want to go. I also teach them to kind of shop and buy the bump they want. I mean after all when you go shopping you don’t buy everything or do you? Slip, slide, and pivot over or around the bump you like. (I stole the shop & buy from Oak’s so I better fess up to it!)

Bumps were great last night you should have been here! The shape was such you could ski on, around, on the back, or in. Shaped kind of like nice teardrops with soft icing on top and solid footing underneath and flowing top to bottom!

Your thoughts? Personally I have never seen a bump field I wanted to pass up! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ December 28, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Learner ]
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