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Hey LisaMarie

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
[See my reply below. I'm leaving this up, and not starting a new one, mainly to preserve PowDiggers post. -AC]<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AC (edited June 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #2 of 28
Hey SCSA and Lisamarie,

Folks, the peacemaker in me and as one of the older residents here I feel the necessity to address both of you and the community in general. As in any community some people will never get along. There is nothing wrong with this. That is the way of human nature and the result of individual personalities and thank god for that or the world would just be boring. However, sometime people just get under your skin or come across the wrong way. If someone is annoyed or seriously personally offended by something then stop commenting, engaging or responding to their posts. Don’t engage them. If the annoyer does something to someone else let that person fight their own battles.

While a good portion of online boards such as Epic, Powder and Paula’s can have its share of “Flames”. Not ever comment that was intended to be a good natured “Flame” is received or perceived that way. I love reading the stuff over on the Powder Boards. Contributor known here for their “Flames” are great but they are skilled writers and seem to know that fine line. If a writer finds themselves constantly called on the carpet because of something they have written then perhaps the offending writer should understand that perhaps their skill to convey the appropriate thought and feeling is lacking. If that is the case then either draft in a word processor and RBP (read before posting) or just give it up.

In my opinion “Flame” wars are about a person’s ability to engage in harmless online “one upsmanship”(sp?) There are people here who are very skilled at it. While we do enjoy doing this here we nowhere reach the level of the Powder Boards but that is by choice. This is who we are as a community.

SCSA, I have always thought that your ski related discussion is valuable to our community. You provoke discussion and many good ideas have been shared because of it. If there seems to be a reoccurring non-skiing theme that gets you in trouble then perhaps an examination of how you come across is in order. You don’t have to get along with Lisamarie just be able to live in the community.

Lisamarie, I deeply respect what you are about. However, I hope some of my comments above cause you some thought and I hope you don’t take offense. Many people who don’t get along can live in the same town. When they see each other on the street they just keep on walking.

I did not mean to lecture but I believe both of you are better than the recent events.

Later, Peace and Out.


Ps. There is no need to respond to this post. However, if there is anything here that anyone cares to discuss with me please contact me off-line at Powdigger@epicski.com
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[This message has been edited by Powdigger (edited June 23, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Powdigger (edited June 23, 2001).]</FONT>
post #3 of 28
as another person trying to keep the peace around may I suggest you tread lightly and cool it. Sexual harrasement in the guidelines of the courts is any actions that someone else finds objectionable sexually. This could be as simple as lewd comments or cat whistles. You may think them complimentory to the person you are whistling at but they may not take it that way. When you treat people that you are not close friends and have an understanding or relationship with it can be considered harrassment. Someone outside looking in may see this going on and they can consider it harassment as well because it makes them uncomfortable. As a business owner you should know this. As you know and has been evidenced by your requests to have certain references removed to your personal life, the web is not as anonymous as most people think. Please put your brain in gear before engaging your fingers.

several of the other members have been very tolorant of your rants. the few outbursts I'm sure are just the tip of the iceburg... L
post #4 of 28
makes ya wonder what'd happen if someone posted a thread...
and nobody came.

let this thing die a lonely death.

you don't HAVE to answer the phone just 'cause it rings. don't have to go to the door 'cause someone's knocking. et cetera.

reminds me of when my brother used to try to get under my skin, thinking he was clever and subtle. though there were times i wanted to lash out, BY FAR the best solution was to ignore the stuff; this made him furious, of course, but after awhile he would realize everything he tried was for naught. he stopped, out of fatigue and boredom.

when people want reactions, BE WITHHOLDING. nothing like a post with no replies to make a "statement."

my buck-and-a-half... <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by ryan (edited June 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #5 of 28
SCSA and Liamarie:

I don't think this or other similar forums are the places to air these type of accusations and bitterness.

I would hope that the two of you could work out your diferences elsewhere, either by phone, email, or a face to face with each of you bringing one person that you know and respect for being level headed, and since that person would force you to keep your head.

There is too much negative karma in the world, skiing and related activities should be a haven from all that !

So say nothing more here but do try to work things out in an adult, non-violent way elsewhere.

Life is too, too short for such ugliness !
post #6 of 28
The posts that remain above are ones that I agree with. They should be read by those who feel the need to get into fights.

I recently posted the following:

Can we all agree to simply not address posts AT ALL to others when the post is only critical and insulting. Instead, just let me know about it and I'll take care of it (either deleting it or talking talking via e-mail with them about it).

What part of this is so difficult to understand? I posted it as a request becasue I thought we could all handle such a simple thing. For those who didn't get it, it is no longer a request, but a new rule of this forum. Live with it or leave.

Since my polite offline suggestions are also apparently being ignored, let me put this forth for all to ponder:

If you find yourself in the situation where many of your posts are pissing-off a large number of other members, then maybe the problem is with your posts and not everyone else's reaction to it.

On a seperate note, please show all other members the courtesy of referring to them only with their current username.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by AC (edited June 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #7 of 28
Points well taken, and I will consider myself "slapped on the wrist". AC, since this is your board, I will adhere to your request, and from here on in, notify you if I find certain posts objectionable.

For the record, I do have a bit of a problem with women relying on men to defend them against harrassment. And those of you who know me, are aware that I am am not a Feminazi, so I do not use that word indiscriminately. But until women learn to kick a little butt for themselves, the problem will continue to perpetuate itself.

Ryan, you said, quite wisely, that there "is nothing like a post with no replies to make a statement."
How very true.
I find it interesting that a skiing related thread that I started has no replies. And Mark's questions about Blackcomb Glacier has minimal replies.
I guess troll feeding is a more interesting pastime.

Then I saw my reflection on a snow covered hill......

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #8 of 28
Generally, I appreciate Ryan's outlook. However, someone has to be the one, on occasion, to tell the Emperor he's got no clothes...... or, is just a horses ass.

I have rarely seen Lisamarie start a battle, Wacko, on the other hand...........
post #9 of 28

i agree. sometimes something DOES need to be said. i'm saying, though, that now and then it's pretty clear the emperor's naked w/o saying it. but yes, there ARE times when...


please don't deduce that a lack of replies to a thread "means" anything in particular. in THIS case, it's a little different context. that's all.

(there was a recent question in RESORTS/TRAVEL about jackson hole. i think it went completely unanswered. while there are plenty of people here who've skied jackson hole, no one spoke up. why? who knows. i don't think that, though, was necessarily a "statement," per se.) <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by ryan (edited June 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #10 of 28
I recently joined this forum, and I don't know all the background details behind these claims. Actually, to be honest, it may sound hard hearted, but I don't know the people involved, I don't give a hoot about their personal conflict, and I don't even really care what facts are.

The reason is that I joined epicski.com because I was fleeing the bitter war and associated idiocy on RSA, and I don't want to see that happen here.

If you want to see how a simple disagreement between two individuals can ruin a ski discussion group, just take a look at what has happened to RSA (rec.skiing.alpine) over the past few years!

If you think that can't happen here, well, it can. Apparently the whole RSA mess happened because of a pair of $40 lift tickets!

Everyone, please calm down and show *some* restraint and ability to get along with each other.

If the individuals involved can't do this and stay on-topic, I strongly suggest that the sysops / moderators cancel any of their posts that aren't strictly on-topic. That way if anyone wants to fight, they will have to do it without the benefit of an audience, and without involving other participants of this forum, etc.

Just my $0.02 from someone who has experienced the total disruption of a ski discussion group: "been there, done that".

post #11 of 28
Welcome to the forum, PhysicsMan!
post #12 of 28
thanks for the good words Physicsman and If I forgot to say so before, Welcome
post #13 of 28
Welcome to the forum, PM. Between your posts and those of Scientist Bill's, we should have some pretty interesting technical discussions, which is one of the many reasons I joined this forum.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence

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[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited June 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
Okay, here's what I did.

I asked 3 women about this. My wife said, "SCSAie!". A woman from Worldcom, who's dealt with me for years, laughed about it. My mother is still thinking about it.


Maybe it's about this. As an employer, it is a nightmare dealing with people, and I'll give you an example. I have a woman who's worked for me for 4 years. She changed her hair and I said to her, "Your hair looks great". She sends me an email calling me everything but nice. We had to have a meeting, all that stuff. "Don't tell me my hair looks nice..."

This other woman who works for me. She comes in one day and is dressed to the 9's - a real show stopper. I didn't say anything, even though I wanted to. She sends me an email complaining that I didn't notice the way she was dressed!

I say something nice and I get hosed, then I don't say anything and I get hosed. I can't win!

This is why I have a lot of equipment and very few employees. At least the equipment never calls me an ahole!

It is really tough these days for a small company. So many rules, so many regulations. Do you all realize that I'm supposed to worry about people sending each other porn? Well, I don't. Ta hell with it. I'm not going to waste my time installing filters, or worrying about if people are checking out porn. My feeling is let 'em! If that's what they enjoy, cool. As long as they get their work done. We have a job to do, not waste time or babysit!

I will admit that a few years ago, I went through a ringer with an employee. I'm still pissed about it and probably took it out on LisaMarie. I mean, I come here and I'm still getting hosed!

And, I had to spend a lot of money just to defend my name! It was terrible! Meetings (I hate meetings - they're a waste of time!), email, letters, more meetings. I not only spent a lot of money, but I lost years off of my life, I'm convinced.

In my case, I'm outspoken. I tell people the truth and what I'm thinking and that's a big problem these days. But, that's what most people love about me - that I don't operate with one hand behind my back. With me, there's never any secrets. I'm as honest as the day is long. Whatever happened to the days when you could tell an employee, "Hey Mary. You look really great today!". You can't! Shit, they sue ya for being nice.

So there ya go. I'm looking at this as an opportunity to learn. So anyone that has some feedback, have at it - I'm all eyes.

post #15 of 28
A lot of how we treat each other is intuition. Some people have great intuition others not so good. It's much harder via emails or forums like this. As you found out as an employer you can err on both sides very easily. If you don't know the people you are chatting with real well, ask. Sometimes it's as simple as that. I think most people, men and women both, would not mind you asking "do you mind if I compliment you on things like....?" I had one co-worker when I was at a large corporation that always dressed very nice. When I first started working there I asked her if she would mind if I commented on certain things. The first year working there, she said yes she would, not because the compliment offended her but she did not know me and wasn't sure how to take it or how I might interpret her responses. As we worked together more and began to know each other better, one day out of the blue she said, "remember when you asked me ... and I said please don't, well I think it would be ok if you said you like or dislike something I'm wearing or my makeup or whatever". My point is you may be joking or otherwise but until people are comfortable with who you are, it's fair to assume that they may very well take what you think to be a compliment in the wrong way.. so, lets keep to the topics at hand and maybe some day as you and others build more trust, well we'll see.
Thanks for listening. now back to ski stuff..
post #16 of 28
I think this discussion belongs in www.EpicGenderRelations.com -- please continue it over there. Thanks.
post #17 of 28
I'm going to relate this directly to skiing. My very first message any internet forum had to do with a ski lesson from Hades. Since it was so upsetting, I've told the story many times, so I am not going to go into the details.

This instructor was totally full of himself, and it became apparent immediately that I n ot only disliked him as a teacher, I abhored him as a human being. This should have been obvious to anyone with any sense of intuition.
I have this problem of not letting go of my inside ski. The image this instructor used, was for me to imagine that he was kissing the back of my knees. But since I found him repulsive, the image, needless to say, did not work. Nor did some of the inappropriate means he used to get me to use my edges.

Had I known him better, and if he was someone I liked and trusted, that might have been a humorous and effective image.
But his ski school director got a nasty letter, and I never returned to the resort. Even to use the freebie lesson they gave me to compensate.

Another scenario. I'm at Bretton Woods, taking an incredible lesson from a highly talented teacher. Its a class of all women. Suddenly he turns to us and says, "As females, would you be offended if I used the term 'pelvic tilt'?"
Well, as a fitness instructor, I felt that anyone who would be offended by that should seriously get a life. It turns out, he was in big trouble with his SS director, because some woman thought that his use of term constituted sexual harrassment.
His director also got a letter, one that raved about the merits of this instructor.

So its a question of chemistry, intuition, and familiarity. If I had called Tog a "charmer" the first time he posted here, he would have been right telling me that I was seriously out of line.

Then I saw my reflection in a snow covered hill....

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #18 of 28
Thread Starter 
From State and Main:
"Marty, that's a wrap".
post #19 of 28
SCSA, I think that the employee problem might have something to do with the chrome naked women mudflaps and the "Player: Bitches inquire within.." license plate frame
on your Trans Am.
post #20 of 28
As another "new kid on the block", I agree 100% with PhysicsMan. If I want a perpetual flame war, I'll hang out in rec.skiing.alpine and read the steady stream of drivel. A little mutual respect goes a long way and it's better to respond to a flame in good humor (or just ignore it) rather than take it personally.
post #21 of 28
Or much simpler. Why flame in the first place? I generally try to avoid flames at all costs. But a personality trait that I am not fond of is the fact that if someone "hits" me, I'm going to hit back 5 times harder. And yes, admittedly, I go straight for the jugular, and have this very uncanny way of figuring out what a specific person's jugular is. So someone would have to be a total idiot to flame me. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

I have and will never EVER instigate a flame war with anyone. I come to this forum because I want to learn about skiing, and in return, I will give out as much information as possible about ski fitness or injury prevention. That seems to be a fair enough exchange.
Perhaps I'm a little hypersensitive.
So be it. All I ask is that people respect that. Otherwise, deal with the consequences.
But the ultimate consequence will be the knowledge that you have ruined the best ski forum on the internet, all because you just could not seem to keep your big mouth shut in the first place.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #22 of 28
AC, dchan, & Lisamarie -

Thank you all for the VERY neighborly welcome! I've been lurking around before I started posting, and I think you have a stunningly good discussion group going here. Congrats!

I hope I didn't come across as too "preachy" and rigid (especially being a newcomer here), but I became very concerned when I saw the way the discussion seemed to be headed.

Not only had I seen this happen on rec.skiing.alpine, but much to my amazement, essentially the same thing also happened on rec.photo.technique.people, and one other NG that I used to follow.

Its becoming blatantly obvious that communications by computer (e.g., email, newsgroups, etc.) are so fraught with the potential for miscommunication, that it seems almost inevitable that differences of opinion eventually occur, and can escalate wildly because of the anonymity and lack of accountability ( a la "road rage").

I think the only way around this is for everyone to be scrupulously well-mannered to each other, always re-read your posts, and imagine how you would feel if you just received the message that you just composed.

Anyway, thanks again for the warm welcome. I look forward to contributing where I can.


post #23 of 28
Thread Starter 
Okay, one last thing.

To all who've given us good advice, thanks. We needed it.

Sometime ago, one of LisaMarie's pals and I got into it - big time. He said some things that hit way below the belt and I'd like to send him an email asking if he'd like to meet me in a private place somewhere, anywhere, to slug it out.

Even though I never asked, I think he owes me an apology.

Her and I will ever get along until that person admits to their mistakes - probably not even then. But, I'll ignore her and I'm hoping she'll do the same.

That, is it. For me, anyway.
post #24 of 28
Physics man: How the heck can anyone get into a flame war on a photography site??????

Anyway, before I started skiing, my husband used to subsribe to rec.alpine. hearing the flame wars made even more terrified of skiing than I already was. Then I discovered how many truly awesome and fascinating people there were who are skiers, especially on this forum.

One more true confession that's a bit personal, but may explain some things. After the above mentioned lesson from Hades, there were 2 people who responded to me immediately. One was the new guy, GeoffD., and the other was the "buddy" that SCSA mentioned. I probably would have never skied agaun if they had not spoken to me.

So yeah, I'm a girl who was brought up in a NYC Italian neighborhood, who sometimes has a hard time acting like a "Proper Bostonian". That means that if someone messes with my buddies, I kick a$$. Yeah, I know, grow up. Hey, Chacon a son mishagosh!
So perhaps we will never be friends, but we must simply agree to disagree, for the sanity of this board.
And Geoff, I'd probably do the same for you, although I'm positive you would not want me to.

Then I saw my reflection in a snow covered hill....

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #25 of 28
LisaMarie sez:
> Then I discovered how many truly awesome and fascinating people
> there were who are skiers, especially on this forum.

What you really mean is, "I found a bunch of other people who are as crazy-obsessive as I am." My girlfriend is in the antiques and auctioneering business. She's surrounded all day by people who obsessively collect dank and dusty trinkets. She points out that I obsessively collect things, too. It's just that I collect memorable ski days.

> After the above mentioned lesson from Hades, there were 2 people
> who responded to me immediately. One was the new guy, GeoffD., and
> the other was the "buddy" that SCSA mentioned. I probably would
> have never skied agaun if they had not spoken to me.

Tryin' to remember that one... was that a lesson at Sunday River? If that's the one, all I remember doing is asking one of the ASC VPs to take a look-see into it. They're pretty good about customer service issues once they're made aware of 'em.

> who sometimes has a hard time acting like a "Proper Bostonian".

Have you learned to loathe the NY Yankees yet? That's our litmus test.

> That means that if someone messes with my buddies, I kick a$$.
> And Geoff, I'd probably do the same for you, although I'm
> positive you would not want me to.

Yeah. That'd sure blow my macho manly reputation. (grin)
post #26 of 28
Yep, it was the Sunday River lesson. I was trying to be nice and not mention names. It does not matter what you did, its the fact that you did anything at all for a person you did not know.
{"Whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers"}

I've never been a baseball fan, but since moving out here, I do tend to come up with some rather self deprecating comments about our sports teams.

Not to stereotype, but you mentioned that your girlfriend collects antiques, but you also mentioned that she's a snowboarder. Wow! Interesting mixed metaphor.

I promise that I will refrain from embarrassing you by "defending your honor", but I can never envision you involved in a flame war.

But hey, ya' never know! I just recently got totally flamed, to the point of practically being burned at the stake {just call me Hester Prynne} on skilovers. Pretty pathetic, eh?

Kind of makes me re-examine my view of myself as a nice, easy going person.
Perhaps, I am deep down, simply a cruel and offensive low life.

Then I saw my reflection in a snow covered hill.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #27 of 28
Hi Lisamarie - re your question about how there could there possibly be a war in a photo NG (rec.photo.technique.people)

Well, prompted by your question, and since I haven't looked at that particular group in several months, I decided to see what they are currently up to. Well, no great surprise, just like rec.skiing.alpine, nothing ever changes.

One of the first msgs that I sampled was from "Eric", one of the main characters in their little fempto-drama. He said:

"Hey (obscenity deleted), maybe you should learn to spell and correct your own mistakes before you pass judgement on others. Do I need to correct your spelling mistakes or do you just want to apologize now. Idiot."

This was exactly the same sort of message he was posting two years ago (actually, somewhat milder than usual).

I can't possibly capture the full flavor of the interactions over there, but I think its worthwhile for people to see for themself how these disputes get started, and how the dynamics evolve in time - almost a mini-lesson in NG sociology.

In the case of this particular war, the easiest way to sample it is to do a Google advanced search with the following strategy:

Any of the words: Eric Scott
100 msgs
Sort by relevance
Only from the NG: rec.photo.technique.people
Language: Any
Posted: Anytime

FWIW, if you change the name of the person involved to Scott Abraham, and change the name of the NG to rec.skiing.alpine, I suspect you couldn't tell the two wars apart by reading the text of the two sets of postings.

In ALL of these NG flame wars, what you will see is an amazingly similar stream of combative, defensive, hypersensitive, legalese-spouting, obscenity-ridden, racist, etc. etc. language that few people would ever say to each other in person.

The "war" starts when some individual thinks he has been "wronged". Heated words change into full-blown invective from one or two central individuals. Then, good intentions not withstanding, other participants in the NG get sucked in. Some good intentioned people try to reason with the central character, others, with equally good intentions, try to argue with him, others threaten legal action, he threatens back, some testosterone pumped guy threatens to duke it out with the central individual, etc. etc. Its all so childish and booringly repetitive.

I realize that even this post is off-topic for this forum, but I hope that it demonstrates the "it can happen here" aspect of such disputes, the need to ALWAYS keep tempers in check, and the need to maintain the highest levels of courtesy and maturity in these forums because of the ease with which such disputes arise.

Geeze - I sound like someone working for the UN, not a physics geek <G>. I'm going to get back on topic an post a biomechanics question about "duck-feet".

Cheers all, and think of snow!


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[This message has been edited by PhysicsMan (edited June 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #28 of 28
Capisco. I'd be curious to read your post. If you get a chance, look in the general section for my thread
"Righting and Tilting Reflexes.". I'd be curious to hear a physicist's perspective.

Then I saw my reflection in a snow covered hill.....

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
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