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do i need to unweight? - Page 6

post #151 of 164
(breathing a sigh of relief....)

Hah! Looks like we're going to get away with it this time, Ydnar! Like Si says though, it's always interesting, for those willing to engage, to discuss these more in-depth topics, if for no other reason than just our own enlightenment and curiosity!

But back now to what's important--skiing!

Si--one thing that I think really contributes to the feeling of rebound, at least in some turns, is simply how cleanly the ski carves through the finish of the turn. This probably has as much to do with the unexplainable synergy between ski and skier that makes some skis "work" for some people and others for other people, too, as with the ski itself.

If we can carve right to the end, even tightening the radius a little at the bottom of the turn, the shape of the turn itself acts like a little jump, a "virtual bump." If we're looking for that floating feeling of rebound between turns, all we have to do is accentuate the release with a little "up" (extension) at the right moment, and we'll sail through the air just like off a mogul.

"Leaper" turns are a popular exercise, good for developing accurately directed movement at the turn transition. They involve leaping the skis off the snow in the transition, changing edges in the air, and landing smoothly on the new edges to complete the next turn. They're easy to do off a little bump. But without an actual bump, we can simulate the same effect by using the "virtual bump." Just add some pressure quickly at the bottom of the turn by increasing edging and tightening up the turn radius. Your body will compress, and the skis will bend more, both loading up and storing energy like a springboard. A quick, timely extension move releases that energy, and the sensation is, again, just like springing off a little bump.

The key is the clean, quick, tightening of the turn radius, even more than the "energy" stored in the ski (although the ski certainly adds some effect).

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #152 of 164
Bob, I agree with your comments on rebound. However, what I'm searching for is a better understanding of the role "ski rebound energy" plays. It's clear that the stiffness and rebound energy of a ski are a critical component of a ski's performance for most proficient skiers. (Ott, that's true I think even if they are like "wash rags" compared to skis of the past which were skied with different technique). That's not to say that "carveability" or "float" or any other factor may not even be more important. So, what's rebound energy's true role? It would be a lot easier to answer this question if we had some data of the actual forces generated by a ski in a turn in relation to its longitudinal stiffnes. Even though we don't, I still think it would be interesting to hypothesize (at least until I get on the snow next week and can just feel things instead of just think about them!).

BTW, how are conditions at Copper? Any more terrain to open any time soon?
post #153 of 164
Oh Bob, you are soooo good [img]smile.gif[/img] ...

Si, with any ski, stiff or soft, the important thing is the hard edge set with the skis loaded , a platform, as we used to call it, from which you can spring without that soft feeling if the skis wre not loaded and you wanted to come up from that position.

So to me, rebound is ski-assisted up-unweighting (we listed it as an unweighting move, remember, about 150 posts ago?) If done correctly, the >up< is cut short as soon as the skier senses that with retraction of the skis he can move them to the other side without catching an edge.

post #154 of 164
[quote]Originally posted by Ydnar:

Transferring pressure first as you describe interrupts the smooth flow of the CM through the turns and tends to produce a "hitch in the get-a-long"(a short traverse between the turns). It is also unnecessary because the change of edges will lead to a natural transfer of pressure from one ski to the other.

Let me see if I understand you correctly? You are saying to move the hips (CM) across your skis, and then create a platform for the turn by lightening the inside ski (this would be my interpretation), and then transfer weight to the outside ski to create the turn? If I do this then you submit there would be no “hitch” in the movement and if the skier loads, lightens, and then`----------- goes there would be a “hitch” in the turn. I have to admit I am confused. Where is the “platform” built that allows for redirection of the CM into the turn? Actually the age-old examiner question is where does the turn start? I believe one would think lighten, load, and go! Some students prefer load (outside ski), lighten and direct (inside ski), and move into the turn with CM. Of course I would prefer load and lighten and go at the same instant but it is hard to describe “instantaneous” movement. I would agree that after a while, I believe we are talking about students here or at least I was, things become autonomous but definitely not until a couple of hundred perfect practices so in fact the student will be sequential at the beginning until the move becomes “natural”.
post #155 of 164
A four-part harmony.

Find a nice medium length even pitch groomed run.

Start with medium carved turns (listen to the music 4 beat)
Gradually tighten the turns to smooth short swings
Feel the rhythm (3 beats)
Keep shrinking them
Distance traveled washing off (2 beats)
Almost stopping
Start to hop (1 beat)
Keep the hop (1 beat)
Start to lengthen the turns.
Distance traveled coming back on. (2 beats)
Back to smooth short swings
Feel the rhythm (3 beats)
Turns getting longer
Back to medium carved turns (4 beat)
Carve back up the hill to a stop.

Practice weekly in all snow including ice.
Practice with “up” unweighting and “down” unweighting.
Mix it up to consciously harness or dissipate rebound. Try it without poles :

The answer is YES!

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #156 of 164
After reading many of the posts on this thread, is unweighting:

1.Stepping to the up hill or unweigted ski early to begin the next turn ?

2.Lightning the downhill ski, taking weight off it, and therefore is ade facto weighting of the uphill ski?

3. Either method works ?

4. There is another and more subtle approach to unweighting ?

5. To be most effective it should be the start of the new turn ?
post #157 of 164
Wink....>>>4. There is another and more subtle approach to unweighting ?<<<

Yes. All your other options are weight or pressure shifts. The term "unweighting" describes a movement where weight is taken off both skis at the same time, equally (except in some unusual circumstances where it may not be equal).

post #158 of 164

Indeed it is very difficult to communicate verbally how several things are happening at once because we can't say several things at once but must string the actions out when we state each one individually. It is indeed this sequential action that accounts for the "hitch" that I see in so many skiers. It is also the reason that I have adopted one foundations of my own personal teaching method. This is that of the things that we are discussing here; crossing of the CM and feet, edge change, and pressure transfer, are not the cause of the new turn but outcomes of the last turn! You can find several discussions of this if you check my posts in the threads "where does it begin", "the CM "crossing over the skis" and earlier in this thread but I will take advantage of your post to run through my thinking again.

To begin with it is obvious from my posts about Cen-tri-fugal force that I don't think of the pressure that I feel under my feet as caused by my body pushing against the skis but as the skis pushing against my feet. I do this for a variety of reasons but the main one is that from my background in physics that is precisely what is happening. Also I have noticed that if the student is taught that that pressure is a mysterious force trying to pull them out of the turn that they must resist then they will do just that and follow the natural human tendency to "fight" that force as it builds through the end of the turn. This leaves them in a position where they must "do something" to start the new turn and it is the fraction of a second which it takes to "do something" that produces the hitch that I am talking about. On the other hand if the skier thinks of the pressure as the skis pushing on the feet then they can maintain a tall structurally powerful stance and channel all of the force they feel into redirecting their CM (this is what is going on in the middle third of the turn) or they can "give in" to the force (by relaxing the muscles of the legs, abdomen, etc) and let the force flex the joints of the body. If there is any degree of carving going on then this action places the feet and the CM on pathways that will cross so I don't have to worry about "doing something" to move the CM across the skis at the end/start of the turn. This natural crossing of the feet and skis is the end/start of the turn and our actions of the last third or so of the turn (relaxing to release) make this crossing happen. Edge change occurs at the moment that the feet and skis cross and pressure transfer will occur as an outcome of this edge change. Once these things have happened I can use a blend of tipping and turning the inside ski (guide ski) to shape the new turn and control the relative amount of carve and skid occurring. When I have a good feel for the timing and feeling of these outcomes I can introduce other actions that will affect them (such as a strong tip to the little toe side of the foot that is downhill at that point) and produce quick high edge angles and a dramatic shift of pressure to the new outside ski (ride ski) or let the edge angle and pressure shift build more gradually, it all depends on where I want to go and at what speed I want to get there.

I hope that the above makes sense to you, it always seems so complicated and convoluted when I put it in writing compared to when I teach it or ski it.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 12, 2001 01:37 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Ydnar ]</font>
post #159 of 164
Ydnar – I have no reason to disagree with how you understand the start of the turn if it works for you and you can relate it to your student and therefore it works. However a student must do something to start the new turn. Otherwise they will not finish the old turn until they are forced to by gravity. I think Lito’s new book, since he was able to write and re-write, probably is about as clear as I could make it. However while you personally will do something autonomous your student I believe must actually "feel" or do something they will then build upon until they can become autonomous like most better skiers. It will be either relax the inside ski which will transfer weight to the outside ski or transfer the weight to the carve ski and relax the inside ski. Either way I believe unless you are creating re-bound forces that “throw” the student into hopefully the new turn, the student does need to learn to do "something" at the beginning until the “whole” repetitive “feel” can become automatic. I do agree the new turn actually starts at somewhere towards the end of the last turn.There we are talking milliseconds again.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 17, 2001 04:15 AM: Message edited 2 times, by Floyd ]</font>
post #160 of 164
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
To see how this works, here's a little experiment that you can either try, or just visualize. Support a ski between two chairs. Put a hockey puck on it, in the middle. Now push the ski straight down to bend it into reverse camber, and let go. Which way does the hockey puck go? I predict--straight up!

If you tip the skis at an angle and repeat the experiment, which way does the hockey puck go? If that ski doesn't launch that hockey puck in a direction perpendicular to its base (under the puck), every time, you've got some strange kind of ski! It's pretty predictable, isn't it? You can shoot that puck any direction you want by tipping the ski in that direction. You can NOT tip the ski one way, and shoot the puck ANOTHER way, can you? Intuitive, I suspect--if not, do the experiment.

Anyway, the sensation of "projecting your CM down the hill" with rebound results from the spring-back effect of your skis--and legs--combined with the direction your CM is already moving. The effect is, indeed, a light, floating senation as your body crosses over your skis and moves downhill into the new turn. You can increase or decrease this "springboard" effect as you choose--by extending your legs like you would to get big air off a jump, or by flexing to absorb the energy, as you would to avoid getting launched over a mogul.

And you can call it "unweighting" either way, if you want to. I don't.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #161 of 164
I think the repost of BB’s comments were very visual and cute. It does go to show you we still can’t agree on what to call anything in this business except beer. I would only caution you a hockey puck is a mass of material with know ability to redirect itself unless of course it is one of those run away hockey puck’s at our area or spore’s (stupid people on rental equipment). Even then that puck probably can’t redirect itself. Point is the puck will move in equal opposite but a person may not because “the move” was the wrong direction. The person puck can and will move up with a lesser rebound “force” than if the move was at right angles to the camber forces created with the ski. That is why we get the BIG bucks.

post #162 of 164
Yeah, zeek, just tell the examiner you are doing the "Hockeypuck" and if he objects, have a print-out of this thread ready and hand it to him, by the time he is through reading it, it will be Spring [img]smile.gif[/img]

post #163 of 164
Very true, Floyd--the human element is the whole key! But the forces that the ski adds into the equation are clear when we look at an example of what they do to something that has no "technique"--ie. the hockey puck.

Ski technique could be defined simply as how we create, respond to, and deal with the forces that apply to us.

If we've learned anything from this thread that might apply to an exam, it is to never assume that you and your examiner--or anyone else--use a word the same way! If we stick to describing the actal movements, or at the very least offer our own definition of a "controversial" word when we use it, it's a lot easier to avoid "digging our own grave."

And it's helpful in all teaching situations to recognize what words are controversial. There is enough legitimate controversy regarding technique, without adding to it the confusion of semantics!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #164 of 164
Thread Starter 
well, I never thoght it would get this big.
thanks for the posts.
If I ever have an examiner question me on unweighting well I'll have a whole bag o tricks...
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