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short turns for MA

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 
My focus was in speed control while stabilizing the body. Any advise will be much appreciated.

skis: Head iXRC 1200i
slope: intermediate slope with a some what icy surface

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkDu5z7fE7k
post #2 of 52
You can do better than that!

You are getting sufficient edge angle now, but why are you letting your skis wash out on you?

Try concentrating on cutting the snow and worry a little less about achieving bigger edge angles and shorter turns. The turns seem to be starting well. You probably need to allow some weight to press down on the edge further back on the tips as the turn develops. Start big and work smaller until the sideways slide starts happening, then back off again.

Edit: missed the focus on speed control. Will look at it again.

Well your speed is controlled, but it looks like a lot of work.
post #3 of 52
Carver, are you in the second clip in yellow pants?

What both have in common is the skis pivoting in the fore body and a relative lack of edge purchase through the first two thirds of the turn. I also see a wedge entry in every turn in the first clip caused by the shoulders and hips rotating into the new turn before you release the old turn. A very common tactic when someone wants to quicken the turns. It also causes the turn shape to be less round and the tails to wash when you start adding enough pressure to actually get some edge purchase. Notice the big spray that goes along with the increased pressure and edging going on in the last third of the turn. That is a telltale sign that you are doing your speed control there. If that was your intention then you acheived your goal.
post #4 of 52
hk,

I like the action of the skis below the fall line and the position of the old inside hand after you pass the fall line (i.e. ahead). These turns also have great rhythm. That's the good news.

Step 1 - Z turns
You are spending very little time in the fall line. This is very effective but not very efficient. On your right turns your inside foot is steering out of the fall line. On your left turns, you're pushing both heels out to speed up the turn shape. The recommendation is to be more patient coming out of the fall line. Try "10 toes" - make sure all 10 toes are pointing down the fall line before coming through the bottom of the turn. Let the skis do more of the turning. Control speed more through turn shape (e.g. finishing turns more across the fall line) than by turning the feet.

Step 2 - Initiation
I can see your upper body popping up and tilting in to the the new turn. Your inside leg does not shorten when you release your old turn. You're not getting onto your new edges until 1/4 way into the new turn. You need to get your core moving into the new turn earlier in order to get more turn happening in the first 1/4 of the turn. There are tons of drills to do this. An in person lesson is the best way to choose among them. What I call Flamingo turns (lifting the heel and tipping the tip of the new inside ski) is a good starter drill. Cowboy turns (set your feet wider than shoulder width apart) really force core movement in order to get smooth turns.
post #5 of 52
Carver,
While I agree with Rusty about what is going on I would reverse the order of his advice. Why? Well if you have a cleaner release and re-engagement the need for the rotary push off move is eliminated. Without the need for such a strong rotary move the z shape will self correct. As will the need for the strong edging after you pivot the skis (it is the corrective move that arrests the rotary momentum you create with the current edge release move). Allowing you to enter the next turn more progressively. So while this sounds like medium radius turns advice it is also applicable to short radius turns in that what we would change is the DIRT but not the basic movements.
post #6 of 52

Call me unconventional

You know, I thought about that. It's a perfectly reasonable argument and follows conventional wisdom to attack the root/most important issue first. But I consciously chose the order for a number of reasons. First, because step 1 is a lot easier to do than step 2 and thus gets some immediate return on investment. Step 2 is likely to make things worse before they get better. Second, step 1 messes with the head in a way that will make step 2 easier to do. Finally, I've found that it's a lot easier to learn to move into the new turn when that direction is more laterally across the hill than down the fall line. Finishing your old turn more across the hill sets this up.

JASP is right that step 2 will likely cause the Z turns to self correct and make step 1 unnecessary. This is why I am crazy, nuts, loony and oh so full of it; and why you should be wary of the pro who seeks the quick fix (I'm referring to myself here).
post #7 of 52
Thread Starter 
Thanks all for the expert comment. I believe I understand what you guys said. I ll try it out tomorrow.

JASP - only the linked vid is me skiing.
post #8 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
You are getting sufficient edge angle now, but why are you letting your skis wash out on you?
I was trying to keep from full edge engagement because I though that would be too fast for short turns.
post #9 of 52
Carver hk,

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
You are getting sufficient edge angle now, but why are you letting your skis wash out on you?

I was trying to keep from full edge engagement because I though that would be too fast for short turns.
I agree with the other posts except on why the out side ski tail is washing on the last third of the turn. You are over flexed into the tongue of the boot, loading the ski tip and causing the tail to wash, clearly evident in the vid. At that point in the turn, keep your ankle flexed, but try to feel your heel contacting the sole of the boot more. This will keep you better balanced over the center of the ski. Speed control can be accomplished by a little more shaping at the end of the turn.

RW
post #10 of 52
The tip pivot is additional evidence that he is pressuring the tip a bit too much. Which would also explain the release move. Although getting him to calm down the rotary is still where I would start.
post #11 of 52
Thread Starter 
RW & JASP - Thank you.

Yes, now its much clearer to me what goes wrong. Reducing some tipping pressure, finish the turns more & do more upper / lower body seperation is probably my next focus?
post #12 of 52
Carver, Tongue pressure not tipping pressure. You're pushing too hard on the tongue of the boot.
post #13 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Carver, Tongue pressure not tipping pressure. You're pushing too hard on the tongue of the boot.
Yes, got it. Thanks. So what I should focus next is:

Reducing some Tongue pressure, finish the turns more & do more upper / lower body seperation is probably my next focus

How about the old inside foot steering as discovered by therusty? I think the reason why I have to do that is because I have more pressure on my outside skis, which in turn rebounds me to the other side. When I try to keep both skis parallel I bound to use muscular force to bring the inside skis to the other side?
post #14 of 52
Work on getting the old outside ski edge to release as the trigger for the new turn. The turn simply isn't finished until you release that edge. Much like a period (.) finishes a sentence. Once you can roll the ankle / knee over the ski enough to get the ski to release throwing the body around isn't necessary to get the new turn started. If you are still having trouble getting it to release try being cuff neutral as well. The rest of the stuff you mentioned can be added after you make these changes, so try to focus on one thing at a time and you will be more effective in making these changes.
post #15 of 52
I think the main reason for that outsize foot skidding away is because Carver stands on the inside foot way too much. Even if he stops pressuring his boot, that outside ski will still run away if he keeps using the inside ski as a training wheel.
post #16 of 52
Thread Starter 
Thanks you both for the new input. As I have a new vid to post I'll response after receiving some more new input.

Just came back from skiing. As suggested I worked on what's on my focus list. The new feeling is that therusty's finding seems very helpful. My right turns seems too backward and therefore the inside skis takes over. My left turns seems too forward and therefore ended up tip pivoting or checking.

Here's an update: What I did was:

1. Reducing some Tongue pressure, finish the turns more & do more upper / lower body seperation is probably my next focus
2. Re-adjust fore/aft balance to my left and right turns.

What I like: seem's more time in fall line
What I don't like: seems like there is a traverse as I complete the turns more?

skis: Head iXRC 1200i on icy intermediate slope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnFOdWrogDE


I happen to find a race course with no one in. Its set on the side of a black run in Solden, Austria. Here is my first attempt. What I see is that I need to scrub off some speed right after the gates in the steeper section to feel comfortable. May be due to the skis(My skis is floppy, I don't want it to take too much G.force) may be just lack of experience or lack of skill? I am not sure. Does the short comings in the vid relates to my short turns as well?

skis: Head iXRC 1200i on icy black slope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDrkMwSUaoE
post #17 of 52
Nice turns HK!

Those turns look much smoother and more powerful. The extended time in the the fall line is readily noticeable and results in a rounder turn shape. The difference in how these turns feel should be giving you a taste for more to keep you motivated for the long haul ahead. You've got room to stretch a few of those turns even more, but it's time to start doing the hard work of getting step 2 done. This is usually more than a 1 season effort. Can you see how you're tilting your head/shoulders into the new turn during transition. That's the right idea, but the wrong body parts. Moving the core first instead of the head first is easier said than done.
post #18 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Can you see how you're tilting your head/shoulders into the new turn during transition. That's the right idea, but the wrong body parts. Moving the core first instead of the head first is easier said than done.
What therusty said here above. Also, notise how you tilt your head at the end of the turn insted of at the beginning. This causes you to rotate into the turn insted of the opposite. You are doing the opposite of what you are supposed to. Try to work on the basics doing one turn at a time. Try to work with your feet and not with your upper body and head. Those are supposed to be supporting movements, not driving.
post #19 of 52
Thread Starter 
Thanks all for comments & advises.

TomB - I noticed in my first vid my inside skis don't have that much snow spray. May I ask why you think I was heavily inside skis loaded?

JASP, therusty & tdk6 - I will focus on my upper body. I believe it's an release issue.

To release in a short turn should I have any weight on my inside skis at the moment I release the outside skis?
post #20 of 52
carver: TomB - I noticed in my first vid my inside skis don't have that much snow spray. May I ask why you think I was heavily inside skis loaded?

Because it is rather difficult to have an outside ski run away from you if you are on it. In your latest video you are definitely doing a better job!
post #21 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
...

I will focus on my upper body. I believe it's an release issue.

To release in a short turn should I have any weight on my inside skis at the moment I release the outside skis?
Carver,

We having a saying that you can't just take something away - you must offer a replacement first. If you focus on your upper body, you won't be able to get positive change. If you focus on movement of your core, you can eliminate unwanted upper body movements.

In a short turn, the path of the upper body down the hill pulls the skis onto their new edge as they pass underneath the body traveling laterally. Weight change happens as a result of edge change not vice versa (this is over simplified).
post #22 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Because it is rather difficult to have an outside ski run away from you if you are on it
This is something I have been looking for a definite answer. On very slippery slope, if you have a dull edge skis or if there are excessive difference in pressure on skis tip from tail or a sideway push would that leads to run away?

therusty - thanks for the further explanation. I ll also look at the latest statement made by BigE in his thread. I believe I have some confusion between core and upper body. Can you help to clarify?

Here is a what I get today. With emphrasis on the release. ie. dis-engage the upper body with a distinct move. get neutral and then re-engage upon new edge engagement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmeHAbc-Kxc
post #23 of 52
carver hk,

Quote:
This is something I have been looking for a definite answer. On very slippery slope, if you have a dull edge skis or if there are excessive difference in pressure on skis tip from tail or a sideway push would that leads to run away?

I didn't really see the outside ski run away as tomb. is describing. To help answer your question, on ice, keep balanced over the middle of the ski, and don't add anything other than guidance through the arc. That will keep it slicing along it's edge.

RW
post #24 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I believe I have some confusion between core and upper body. Can you help to clarify?
If you think of "upper body" as above the waist, then it's almost the same. But think of the core as the middle 1/3 of the body (from below the belt to just above where your elbows hang)instead of the upper half .

We can see you move the upper body by moving your head and shoulders. We want to see it get moved by the hips instead.
post #25 of 52
Thread Starter 
Thank you both for the great hints.
post #26 of 52
Martin, take rappid actions in regards to what I said. I second Ghost, you can do much better. BTW, at the end of the GS track your skiing looked pritty good.
post #27 of 52
carver_hk: This is something I have been looking for a definite answer. On very slippery slope, if you have a dull edge skis or if there are excessive difference in pressure on skis tip from tail or a sideway push would that leads to run away?

Well, yes this is true. But in your case (and this is only my opinion), you did the classic "separation of skis" in the lower half of the turn that indicate you are hesitant to trust yourself on that outside ski.
post #28 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
you did the classic "separation of skis" in the lower half of the turn that indicate you are hesitant to trust yourself on that outside ski.
I undertand your point now. May be your observation is correct because I have some retract move right after fall line and that will lighten my outside skis for sure. Some people even think my turns are more ILE alike.

tdk6 - Thanks for your previous advise. I focused on the core and the alignment with the legs. Things seems improving.

short turn update:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jahpawJRark

short turns on 1 foot deep powder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjeCR5OG-8M

I am not sure how much improved but seems some improvement. Any advised or comment will be much appreciated.
post #29 of 52
This is good skiing, but could be further refined. I know many that would love to ski like this....

IMO, your CM needs to advance sooner to the next turn. The 1st short turns video shows you waiting for the skis to come about, while leaving the CM up the hill -- a version of the backseat....

Allow the CM to continue moving downhill while the skis cross-under on edge. Ensure that the shins maintain a light pressure on the tongues through the cross-under. You will have to flex more through transition as the paths of the CM and skis cross, and extend/"reach with your legs" at the top of the turn......

The CM should have a continuous flow downhill.

I did not see the powder video.
post #30 of 52
Thread Starter 
BigE - Thanks for helping out. It seems the same thing happen to my carving. I ll work on both and post the result after I return home.
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