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post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Let's talk about bump skiing - black run bumps...

I finally took a bump lesson to learn to better control my speed and to break myself of the "launch, get air, turn" habit. Although fun to do, this habit was NOT working in the black steeps.

The instructor was **excellent**, and I now understand the "bend, extend" style.

Am having a bit of trouble with the "extend" phase, where you extend your legs straight on the downside of the bump. Goal is to push the ski tips down and maintain contact with the snow. This is the part where I used to jump and get air. I am trying to change to extending and sliding. Am finding it a bit jarring. Anyone know any tips or drills? Thanks!
post #2 of 28
The part about pushing the tips down, think about pointing your toes or standing on tippy toes. This forces the tips of the skis down into the trough.

As far as exercises, Find some washboard runs or traverse across the hill slowly at first and on gentle bumps, try to keep your head at the same height all the time. "almost like it was on a clothes line" or as if you were in a tunnel and trying to keep your head just along the top of the tunnel.

By absorbing and extending your legs over the bumps and into the troughs you should be able to keep your head at the same level.

After you get better at this go faster and for bigger bumps.
post #3 of 28
Couple of thoughts:

Find a "spine" in a terrain park. Before you get to the spine, do regular turns(extend/flex)so you have a rythum. As you go over the top, you are flexed, then extend down each side.

Visualize something to help you extend. One that I picked up at a clinic was that moguls were hot coals, and the valleys were cool water. Do a "ouch"(flex)/"aahhhhh(extend) as you ski.

Have someone watch you ski the smoothies. If you are doing extention/flexion there it should follow you into the bumps.
post #4 of 28
What's helped the most for me is pulling the inside foot back once at the top of a bump.

Translated? Here's a try:

Black bumps that are very close together.

In this case, you had to make a turn on top of the bump - sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. If the bumps are close together, one cannot turn in the troughs, that's the only constant. So, that leaves turning on top of the bump, or on the side of the bump.

So you're looking at your line and your next move will be to ride the side of bump, through the trough, and up the face of the next bump.

While riding up the face of the bump, depending upon where you want to turn (on top of the bump or on the side of the bump) pull your free foot back under your hips and in line with your stance foot. Doing so will slow you down, pull your hips up over your skis, and keep you out of the back seat.

So let's say you opted to turn at the top of the bump. You're now at the top of the bump, you've slowed down (big key to skiing tight bumps), and you're in control.

Now you're in control of your line. Your choices are to; ride down the face of the bump, turn on top of the bump, or start more of a GS line, depending on what lies ahead or how you feel.

What I do is eliminate choices. Mainly, never turn in the troughs. Then, it's just a few key moves; keep your hands moving, keep that free foot pulled back, look way ahead. The rest, just happens and you have to deal with it.

I do stand at the top of run and choose a line - but only as a starting point because things change. A rock here, a narly jagged bump there, or a mistake, throws you off your line.
post #5 of 28
You need to have your SKIS going slower before you start your next turn. Either turn farther uphill (in a round bump turn) or let the tails wash out more (in the zipperline).
This will give you more time to extend. After awhile, this will become a habit and you can let the skis run a little more.
post #6 of 28
Also, shorter skis with more sidecut would help.
post #7 of 28
SCSA- Don't get angry. Please explain "free foot". I'm asking a rhetorical question. I've read HH's texts. This is one of the items with which I disagree. How is one of our feet "free" and more importantly why would we "stand" on only one foot?

I would love to argue these points in a meaningful discussion.
post #8 of 28

I am with you 100% on holding back the inside foot to prevent it from sliding too far forward and causing the hips to get behind the feet (the ol' banana turn, doesn't Harb call it?):

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Doing so [pulling back the free foot] will slow you down, pull your hips up over your skis, and keep you out of the back seat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know that it slows you down, but it prevents the accidental acceleration that happens when the hips move behind center. I think the idea is to keep the hips over the feet (feet under hips), skis being a less specific target. I agree that the movement does keep you centered which makes everything else work much better.

Rusty, I imagine it is called a free foot because we can more freely move this foot than the stance foot, which is the one we stand on?
post #9 of 28
As in powder, your skis need to learn to work together in bumbs. By pulling your inside foot back, you are connecting your skis so that they work as a single unit. Troughs are narrow enough that if you skis are not together, they are riding different terrain.

As you probably know, the number one thing in bumbs is to STAY FORWARD. Pole planting on the top of each bump helps this. Being backseat at all results in the "launch, get air, turn" style and a rapid increase in speed. However, now that you are forward, make sure you do not compress at the waist which is the natural tendency. Compression and extension must still come from only the lower body so that the upper body can remain square to the hill.
post #10 of 28
Rusty and nolo,

Folks, what I've learned in my journey is this. At the upper levels, a lot of what we talk about really is the same.

The "stance foot" is always the downhill ski. The "free foot" is always the inside ski. Some say you steer with the inside foot, with PMTS you tip with the inside foot.

What's the difference between steering and tipping? I think the big difference, as I understand it, is that steering has always come from the thigh. Well, Harb teaches that movements come from the feet. He calls the free foot "passive steering".

But getting to what Rusty asked, what you have to remember is that Harb teaches one footed skiing. Harb basically teaches transferring balance from one stance foot to the other.

Then, the movements that come from the feet. Then, you learn to feel the movements that come from the feet by doing the balance drills.

Now, we're getting off track with this thread, but I can now see two footed skiing. When I see skiers coming down groomers laying down tracks, that's two footed skiing with a capitol T.

My man oz was going to show me two footed skiing, then he got hurt. Damn!
post #11 of 28
SCSA is right, pulling the free foot back is a great move. If you are a little too far back it will get your feet under your hips.

Consider puliing both feet back if you are really in the back seat.

Have you seen the discussions on the keggle muscles? If you have a strong stable core, you will find it easier to pull the foot (or feet) back.

The thing to focus on in bumps is not so much staying forward, but managing pressure and staying centered. Right on the sweet spot. which is tricky, because there is a lot going on in the bumps!

During the up of the bump, retract quicky, pulling the legs up. As the crest of the bump passes under the feet, pull the feet back, and the tips of the ski will go right down the "hole". The trick is to extend or lengthen the legs very quickly, keeping up with the "beat of the bumps". Most people get the retraction move down right away, but it takes practice to extend quickly, smoothly, and enough.

Active suspensiom, managing pressure.

As far as the "free foot" thing, consider what happens when we walk down a set of stairs. The stance foot is on the stair tread, and the free foot is active (swinging) and moving forward, down onto the next stair. The body moves forward into the future, so you are in balance when you step onto the new stance foot. The old free foot becomes the new stance foot as soon as weight is tranferred to it, and it's done in an instant.

Skiing is different, but not so much. Instead of the legs scissoring (walking movement) the skis turn, with the feet and legs turning. You stand first on one foot, then the other. The free foot is more active with movement, the stance foot is bearing the load. And the weight tranfer is done in an instant.

If the skier is using a more shapely ski, the turning of the feet and legs will be passive, keeping up with the skis turning forces. With less sidecut, more active rotary is needed from the thighs legs and feet.

Active rotary is used with a strongly shaped ski if the ski is being kept quite flat, for scarvy or skidded speed control. As in a pivot slip. This is considered "old style" by some, but it still works.
post #12 of 28
Well, HH has eyes. I'll bet he watched some skilled tele skiers snow dancing one day and made the connection. We in the GANG call it the Tele Move.
post #13 of 28

Next time you are working on gentle terrain try this. Start a straight run on one of the gentlest sections and then tip one foot to the little toe side as little as you can and still know that you have tipped it. I call this a micro tip. Make no effort to establish a stance foot. Feel how the skis slice forward along the snow. Now without transfering balance just make a micro tip of the other foot (I beleave that this is what HH would call a weighted release) again be patient and let things develop, we're not trying to turn here just micro tip and see what happens. When you get a feel for leaving tracks with a micro tip then add a little more tip to the free foot as the turn progresses.

Hope this helps,
post #14 of 28


So what you're saying does sound like the weighted release.

So lemme get this straight.

I'm standing right, my left foot is the stance foot. What you're saying is immediately tip the stance foot to the outside edge (little toe side) and ride the edge for a few?
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
Great info! I am following everything except Ydnar's micro tip...
post #16 of 28
Pulling the free foot back is the one move that whoever I've showed it to is always like, "Wow! That really works".

If I was an instructor, I'd call it the, "now it's time for my tip, move".

And it's really easy to demonstrate/see too.

I got the move from HH. I don't know where he got it from, but they were so right on.
post #17 of 28
Ydnar's "micro tip" is off topic, and is a tip to let SCSA figure out what two footed (railroad tracks) carvign is like. It's not really a bumper's move...

But it's a good one. Hey SCSA, I can show you "two footed skiing". Remember the phrase "lifting is learning, lightening is skiing"? That's what's up. I can show you if you want. Or not... :
post #18 of 28

You just make sure you get plenty of sleep Thursday night.

It's time to do some laps with SCSA.
post #19 of 28
The micro tip is wonderful, however, SnoKarver and SCSA please, please don't lighten. Simply tip. Do it from the ankle down. Don't move the knee. remember the "Great Quiz"? Feel pressure build up between the boot cuff and your leg on the inside of the leg. Merely supinate. Please don't lighten. This is what has caused so many problems for "my friend" who has dabbled in PMTS.You guys know who she is. She lightens so much that there is no edging. The inside ski just smears with a little rotation. One foot is definetly free and the outside foot is certainly her stance foot.

I guess I'm getting more and more convinced that we should make no "active" weight transfer in a turn. Pressures build and weight moves as a result of turning.

I ask one more thing. Try it with your feet the same width as your hips. Get everything aligned. Feet under the knees and knees under the hips. Perhaps with skis six inches apart. I wish I could join you guys, however, Ive got to teach at Eldora.

SCSA, if you will give me a chance to show you a couple of things I honestly would be honored. I'll do this. If you don't enjoy my lesson and find the stuff worthwhile, I'll write a check for a $100.00 to the charity of your choice. If you are 100% satisfied you write a check for $100.00 to the charity of my choice. The lesson will be free. I can do it Monday at Copper.

I care about you and I admire your love for skiing. I think this would bridge a lot of gaps.
post #20 of 28

How could I turn that down?

Monday doesn't work. Pick another day that week.

How about I send the $100 to AC?
post #21 of 28
We're starting to stray, but...


Think of PMTS like any other product. 100% satisfaction is not possible and there's bound to be some unhappy customers.

On your stance issue, there's simply no way one could ski bumps the way you describe. And, I don't think powder could be skied that way either. So, why bother? Why bother with a stance that's only useful on groomed runs?

Then, on the turning issue, I'm not quite sure about your lingo. But one footed skiing really works for me. Why would I tear apart all that I've learned and why would I start over in my training? Well, there's zero reason to.

Rusty, when I skied with Scott Strickland at Highlands, he was all about a narrow stance and one footed skiing. He knew who HH was. Scott had a racing background.
post #22 of 28
You're assuming 100% satisfaction! I was thinking more along the lines of one of us sending it to something like the Heart Association or the American Cancer Society.

We'll do it at Loveland in April when I can get away from Eldora.
post #23 of 28
I don't want you to tear down what you have learned. I narrow my stance for bumps and maintain my "normal" stance for powder.

By the way. While you have widened your stance, I'm working on narrowing mine!
post #24 of 28

No, I'm saying that if you know who is having some trouble with PMTS, well, no product has 100% satisfaction. There's always a few customers who simply aren't satisfied.

But one thing. You said "...dabbled in PMTS".

With PMTS, you really need to dedicate yourself to it. It's not a system that you can use bits and pieces of. So if you know who is having some trouble adapting to it, that's probably why.

That's what some don't like about it, which I can certainly understand.

Now we either need to move this to a separate thread or drop it.


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ March 13, 2002 08:50 PM: Message edited 1 time, by SCSA ]</font>
post #25 of 28
Warning: tip from non-instructor, prepare to : ...

I noticed you mentioned "launch, get air, turn" style. I am working on getting bumps right myself and what I find is that if I get absorbtion part right, extension comes naturally. So you may want to check the part of the trun that start with your ski tips hitting the bump. Do you actively pull the knees up to let your skis contour the mogul? When I skip this part I end up compressing into the face of the bump, end up in the back seat and it only gets uglier from their.
Therefore I focus on keeping my vision 2 - 3 bumps ahead and starting the absorbtion when my tips are just coming into contact with the next mogul. Then when I crest it I am really on top of the skis and extending into the next turn comes naturally.

As a side note it is amazing how important vision is in any sport that I have learned over the years. As soon as you look ahead where you want to go, everything just slows down and you have all the time in the world to make the movements happen.

Hope this helps.
post #26 of 28
 It helps me with extension to be on the balls of your toes and "drive" your tips down the backside of the mogul. For proper extension, body position is key, so be sure that your chest is not hunched over, your arms are out in front and that your're looking in front of you. Good luck!
post #27 of 28
In addition to all the tech tips, which are good info...think about your line.  There was a really good article in one of the ski mags a few years back showing the differences in line for a full on bumper (zipper line) vs. a really round line, as described above, where you're using turn shape to control speed, and a "racer" line where you're doing essentially what SL racers do in a rutted course...don't violate the groove, get into the rut early, and use the bank as a platform rather than fighting it.  You're essentially using the sides of the bumps rather than the tops or the troughs.  Every run is probably going to use elements of each kind of line, but as a Chronologically Challenged (i. e., Masters) ski racer, the racer line works best for me, and is the easiest on an old set of knees and back.  Make sense?

post #28 of 28
Is somebody bucking for the "Oldest Resurected Thread of the Year" award?   hahahah
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