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Video clip for you guys to pick apart - Page 2

post #31 of 50
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Adema:
great video, dchan!

questions for the instructors here: in what level (1-9) would categorize the skiing depicted in the video? what do you look for when categorizing advanced/expert skiers, e.g. with respect to their carving, mogul skills, linked short turns, speed or ability to handle expert terrain? thanks.

i'd be interested in what the instructors think on this, too. not that i care what level dchan skis at, but it'd provide a little bit more basis for measuring others that i know and myself... doesn't have to turn into a psia bitchfest.. just what's your opinion based on the limited example before you, instructors?
post #32 of 50
dchan - Thank you very much for posting your video. It was particularly useful to me because the critiques of *your* skiing confirmed something I knew about my own skiing, and have been working on recently.

Early this season, a friend took a video of me skiing. The snow conditions were just about the same as they looked in yours, but I was going a tad slower because of traffic. Upon comparing our two videos, they show surprisingly similar styles. Thus, all the comments made to you about early edge engagement, drift in the turns, etc. obviously applied to me as well.

Fortunately, I realized this about myself as soon as I saw my own video, so I decided to work on it. A couple of weeks ago, I spent several consecutive days skiing deep spring slop, and let me tell you, the slop I was in had "zero tolerance" for skidding, so by the end of this period, I wasn't kicking up even a hint of a spray. I wish I had more days left to ski to really burn this movement pattern into my brain, because I'm worried that once I get back on harder snow, I'll revert back to my old ways.

Anyway, if you have any skiing days left this season, I would strongly recommend that you get out in the warmest part of the day on some absurdly low angle, un-moguled slopes and work on carving. The amount of spray you hear being kicked up, the amount of speed you are bleeding off, and the general ski feel provides feedback that you can use to instantly evaluate modifications to your technique.

Again, thanks a lot for your video. It shows maturity and self-confidence to subject your skiing to public scrutiny, and it also says a lot about the members of this forum that the criticism was so professional and constructive.

Cheers & many good turns,

Tom / PM
post #33 of 50
From what I saw and the terrain in question I think Matter is absolutely spot on with the advice.

I also look one turn ahead. I figure my feet and body already know what to do in the present turn, looking ahead leads to much smoother skiing and eliminates the chance of "D'OH" into the next turn.
post #34 of 50
dchan- Forgive me if I repeat what someone else said as I have not had time to read the other posts!

Looks like bumpy variable snow moderate pitch?

I would like to see a stonger extension or lengthing of the outside leg. To do this really concentrate on making the little toe higher than the big toe on this foot. As you do this really try to lengthing the leg as it tips. (1000 steps is good activity for this) Now on the inside leg I would like to see you flex into this more by driving the knee forward as you make the big toe higher than the little toe on this foot.

I think by doing this you will be able to tip the ski's more on edge resulting in less of a drift and slid turn. You will also develop a long leg short leg relationship that would a keep you from settling back. Right now I see both legs bending about the same causing your hips to drop back thru the turn resulting in the tail of the ski to take a wider path and skid thru the bottom of the turn.

I am not going to take the time to go into many of the good things such as the good absorption from the legs and upperbody dynamics!

I think a focus of going out and really trying to tighten the arc of each turn with tipping the skis, challenge yourself to see how high an edge you can get. Do some "J" turns making sure the tails follow the tips.

As a side note it looks like you may be a little bow legged? maybe it's just the angle or a move your doing with your knee?
post #35 of 50

Rythmn, timing, line and upper body\hands very nice, two footed steering looks good as well.


Too much breaking at the waist means no real active extension and retraction happening in the legs. (look at the skis\feet\legs\hips as you come over the bumps)

Flat footed (not backseat) with an emphasis on using a heel push (watch the tip lead) to stabilise for the new turn and a banking motion to find the edge.

In short ... static skiing.

Work on a better feel for the skis from the feet and a good active leg extension and retraction. Tip and extend from the feet bringing the hips towards the toes on turn initiation. Keep the core strong, add some angulation and in that slush tip the feet into the turn earlier and stand against the turning skis.

Liven it up a little and forget the wide stance focus for a more natural stance and active feet\legs that ride the terrain.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ April 16, 2002 09:30 AM: Message edited 1 time, by man from oz ]</font>
post #36 of 50
Yeah dchan, I wanted to say that posting a video is a courageous thing to do. Most people couldn't handle the scrutiny you're taking - but it'll pay off in the end.

I thought about this again this morning, and I still think most of the instructors recommendations here are flat out wrong. I'm going to try to explain what I mean.

Weems, Todo, and others are saying basically the same thing - variations on load the outside ski's edge more, tip it more, etc. Weems first post lists:
"1. When you start the turn, just shorten the inside leg (left for left turn, right for right turn) relative to the other one. That tends to load you nicely onto the new edge.
2. When you go to start a right turn, press down on the ball of the left foot--towards the big toe side--as if you were pressing on the accelerator of your car. The boot will do the rest.
3. To start the turn try to imagine that you have the ability to grip the snow with the arch of your foot (left for right and right for left). Grip lightly at first, and then increase throughout. This once again gives you awareness of the edging/bending capacities of the ski and will help you trust the ski from the start."

With the current stance, I don't think any of that will work. Loading the outside ski earlier in the turn WILL stop the drift. But with your current stance and low angulation, you won't be able to make anything but long radius turns. If you use your current stance and turn entry with weems #2 and #3 bits of advice, I bet the outside ski hooks up and starts making a huge GS length turn. You said you've seen yourself make railroad tracks on groomed, my bet is that you see the railroad tracks while stomping on the outside edge. But these are largeish turns only, am I right?

The problem is that you can't make shorter turns while pressuring the outside ski hard. The long turns work because you're kind of "park and riding" the skis natural turn radius. You can do this with the center of mass being directly between your feet. You can't tighten the turn radius without angulation, which requires the center of mass to be inside both of your skis.

With the wide stance and 2 footed turn entry, you aren't getting your center of mass inside the turn. This is something you need to address in turn initiation, that's where the problem lies. It's not a matter of just stomping on the outside ski more or trying to tip the skis more. I'd be willing to bet you could tip the outside ski a little more (putting you in an A frame, which was my specialty), but I bet you can't tip the inside ski much more without feeling like you are going to tip over. The reason you feel like you're going to tip over is your c.o.m. is right between your feet. Look at the world cup slalom racers that seem to have wide feet, their inside ski is still very much underneath and outside their body. Their c.o.m. is inside both skis throughout the turn.

In short (actually this post was hella long), its the stance and turn entry causing the problems. I think just telling you to pressure something more or tip something more is only going give you more grief.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ April 16, 2002 12:14 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Matter ]</font>
post #37 of 50
From a non-professional with no implication in regards to my own abilities:

I think your last turn to the left on this segment when you are out of the bumps shows your best turn initiation with the new inside ski (left tip left), best angulation, and increased edge angle. Thus, while I think the near concensus of all the technical feedback and advice given here is accurate I'm not sure it's going to have a great effect. I would suggest that you need to find a way to get out of your "internal" perceptual framework which I would postulate is inhibiting your skiing in this terrain.

I think Matter's comments on "how far" to be looking downhill is perhaps a bit closer to the crux of stepping up to the next level (given your demonstrated technical skiing level). When he said many people have "heard" this but "don't get it" I think he is getting at an important point. I for one can push myself at steep bumps all day and make some modest gains. But have me follow an accomplished skier (even at the very end of a long fatiguing day) and my skiing can be transformed. I believe that is because my perceptual focus is changed from accomplishing the immediate task (current turn) to preparing for the VERY next turn I can make in order to head as much down the fall line as I can handle and keep up with the person I'm following.

Each time I get such an opportunity (following a really great skier) I carry it over to my independent skiing to some (but not a full) extent. When properly motivated and skiing my best I "look ahead" and plan for the next turn/turns but the turns themselves are mostly on auto-pilot. While perhaps not as easy to describe as more technical/movement aspects, this incorporation of "looking ahead" is often times a far more critical issue. (Note "looking ahead" is in some ways a poor term as it does not clearly imply the planning, motivation, and goal orientation which are also important components of this concept).

I think you will always limit yourself if in the bumps, steeps, etc. if you generally focus on any part of the current turn. Finding situations and environments that work for you (following someone, demonstrating something to a group, competition, etc.) that promote perceptions and planning about future turns can be one fo the most effective ways to improve your skiing (especially for someone at your level).
post #38 of 50
Adema and Auxcrinier-
I guess I'll be the first one to stick my neck out to answer your question-.

I would call dchan a level 8. He has alot of good things going on in his skiing, but there is still a lack of precision in his technique. When that precision exists, and can be exhibited on various types of terrain and snow conditions, then he would be considered a level 9.

OK everybody, go ahead and cut my head off!
post #39 of 50
Matter- I can't speak for Weems but to me it is a matter of cause and effect. the reason dchan cm stays between his legs and is not able to be inside as you said is because he does not tip the ski's early in the turn intiation allowing the legs to ski out and ski his hip to the inside. I did not intend to advocate stomping on the outside ski if anything just the opposite! I want dchan to tip both legs at the top of the turn and lengthing his new outside leg as he flexes into his inside leg thus allowing his cm to move inside. You can accomplish this is in a large or short turn. It is real important to allow the skis to ski out and around thus a wider path than the cm regardless of the size of the turn. I was more concerned with the shape of his turn not the size. The reason the tipping is so important is that it allows for you to start shaping at the start of the turn not only at the bottom. Also unless you tip first the lengthing of the outside leg just sends you UP (vertical) and not in the direction of your next turn. I seldom advocate weight shift or pressure change as I feel if I tip and steer both skis from the start pressure finds it way to the right place most of the time. So I don't believe my advice to dchan would just mess him up more but then he would have to be the judge after skiing a little with some of the thoughts provided. I think the focus on tipping and guiding the inside ski while lengthing the outside leg at the TOP of the turn will enhance his skiing! I do agree with you that just stomping on the outside ski would not.
post #40 of 50
Thread Starter 
Don't worry, I'll be trying out lots of what you all are talking about.

Actually I think the one of the reasons I'm not farther inside my feet has more to do with the speed I'm moving. As in I'm not building enough speed and therefore not enought G's to bend both skis. Wet snow does tend to slow things down a bit. Again, not an excuse or reason to not try stuff. If the pitch were steeper and the snow were harder I suspect you would see more carving an less drifting. I just need to move those same "movements" onto this snow and work with it more. Too much thinking and not enough muscle memory to let them flow naturally. I guess I just need to ski more [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #41 of 50
Hi dchan,
interesting comments.
you were defitely brave to expose yourself.
what I find interesting is that you've seemed coachable when I've talked to you and I thought I felt some defensiveness coming from a couple of your posts.
You were pretty happy with your shot, i think and you defintely improved your skiing over early season, but the amount of feedback here has caught you unprepared.
Anyway, just my perception of the flow of the thread.
It may make points for my argument that you need to find a good pro and stick to them. You get too many cooks in the kitchen (even good cooks) and things can get scrambled.
Don't let a over abundance of feedback give you the old parallysis by analysis.

Anyway, technically, since it's what you asked for (although more may not be ideal), weems is awfully good. You know, weems, I even remember enjoying your quality eye back in powder mag.

Tilt before you turn! As stated by weems etc., it will alleviate alot of your symtoms. that's all I'd say for awhile. Too much is not good.

Cheers, Holiday
post #42 of 50
Originally posted by Roto:
I'll finish up later GTG!
Apologies for that unfinished post.

I was just thinking that being back and tipping in can hardly be of no consequence. I think weems' post has a lot of good content, except for that part.

By referring to the eff. movemnts patterns I am sharing some of the info that backs up decisions I make to help people out. I divulge this because I am communicating with a fellow instructor, so skiing development shares the stage with professional knowledge (in my opinion).

I would put dchan in the same place as vsp. Level 8. He has some excellent movement pattern development going on and could, with enough mileage, be skiing into the next level within a season.

- dchan shows some decent development of ankle, knee, hip & spine flex to stay balanced over the feet.
I do not see him as 'sitting back' as much as 'in contact' with the back of the boots. This may seem like a semantic difference, but it is not. The aft balance may go unnoticed by the unpracticed eye because the difference between contact with the front and contact with the back of the boots lies in a SLIGHT difference in hip position. But this has BIG consequences.

to me, this is primarily reponsible for his 'late' edge engagement, as the slight aftness delays his use of diagonal movements of the feet, legs and hips to engage and release the edges. This movement pattern also shows some decent development. He does use diagonal movements to engage his edges (just a little late), but not so well to release as his legs must be tight into transitions to deal with the aft contact. Either his cm or feet move vertically prior to actually acheiving edge release for transition.

dchan does a very good job waiting until his edges are changed to steer the feet so he can utilize rotary motions that originate in the feet & legs... though the timing of this is also slightly delayed due to the 'aftness' and late digonal movements (skis can't be steered with the feet until they are at least flat)

Too much information? maybe, but remember that this is usually behind the scenes, and in truth it isn't necessary to develop such an involved description of all of the movement patterns. Usually it's a fairly quick comparison to identify cause/effect and then move into development.

For a lesson plan, I don't know since I'm not with him. I may well work to direct his balance to the outside ski earlier in the turn, as this could put him in a much better balanced position to tip and guide above the fall-line. There are a bunch of ways to go and it really depends on what kind of situation would be best to acheive the outcome.

Some desired outcomes..

-maintain contact with the front of both boots from turn to turn (including thru transition).

-replace vertical movement with forward/lateral movements through turn transitions.

-develop an awareness of his timing of edge release and it's relationship with edge engagement.

-Direct balance to the outside ski more often/effectively

-acheive the skill to ski the following pressure control/balance sequence: while making comfortable turns-
- in the fall-line, 100% on outside ski,
- across the fall-line 50/50
- in the fall-line 100/0
- etc. etc.
- make the shift continuous & smooth
from fall-line to fall-line

- ski so if people were watching they could not identify a single point at which weight transfer has occurred. They will be able to see one has happened, just not exactly when/where.
post #43 of 50
dchan....NNNice work,
..and what a glutton for punishment! Hey, tons of great specifics from everyone, I'll keep
my $.02 brief & pretty general....
Separate the lower body from the upper.....they each have their own *things* to do.
In general, I'd try to have your upper body Lead the Way.(More aggressively)..down the
mountain.. choosing your line(s)!...keeping your balance..etc.
Let the lower body play with the terrain as far as making those fine-tuning adjustments...
controlling your speed....initiating those quick, light, edge changes...etc. More relaxed
ankles, knees, hips...make for a less static lower body.

the NewEngland_Intermediate's $.02....

[ April 16, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: HaveSkisWillClimb ]
post #44 of 50

What were doing when the video was made?

Just cruising down the hill?
Trying to make nice pretty turns for the instructors to critique?
post #45 of 50
Thread Starter 
actually I was trying to make turns like I normally would however I know that if a camera is on you or when you are under scrutiny you don't always do things the same. I was probably trying harder than usual to move certain ways. But if all the movements were better engrained in my muscle memory it shouldn't matter. But for me they still do.

What was it about practice?

Practice does not make perfect.
Practice makes permanance.
Perfect practice makes perfect.

And someone else told me it about 300-500 repetitions to get it to not feel awkward,
about 700 repetitions to make it feel natural,
and about 1000 repetitions for it to be in your muscle memory.
post #46 of 50
Two things.
1. It looks like you WANTED to make skidded turns.
If this is so, get yer feet back together like in your last video. It looked much better that way.
2. You should have zipperlined those soft bumps. I'm very disappointed in you.
post #47 of 50
dchan, I won't comment in depth, I'm not qualified to do this.
But one thing I'll say, I like it better the way you were handling turns in your first video.
Of course it's a different time, different slope,
different snow conditions...(and being an euro, I may judge differently from other people your style/technique, that's why I won't further comment, too many input could lead you astray)
Still, you looked more fluid there.
Thanks for sharing both videos.
As many other pictures and videos from the Bears, is now residing on my Pc, and I watch it from time to time. Watching the Bears, even VK catching a snake , it's sort of cosy. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #48 of 50
VK catching a snake? Whoa, not going there!!!
post #49 of 50
Thread Starter 
moving to the top.

Ooops the link is broken. I'll fix it around 2:00 PST today when I get to a location that I can access the server.

[ November 05, 2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #50 of 50
Thread Starter 
links to clips are now fixed. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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