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post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
We've had a lot of discussion about the pulling the inside foot back under the body and its effects on our skiing. I have a few questions for those who have played around with this.

In relation to the traditional C-shape turn at what point in the turn are you feeling yourself drawing the foot back under the body?

At what point in the turn are the ski tips even with each other?

At the point the skis are even what is the relation of the body to the direction of travel of the skis, square or countered?

post #2 of 12
ydnar- Since I have only 3 hours on snow this year in bumps I want to reserve the right to change my answer latter!

If you are playing with pulling the foot back in a C shape turn I would say the pull back of the foot is from the apex to the finish. As for the tips being even this would be for a short time as you pass through neautral exiting 1 turn as you enter your new turn.(the end of the c) I think of pulling your foot back to more of a progressive thing over a period of the turn not all at once.

having said that I tend to think more of continuing to flex the inside ankle from intiation to apex and then start to extend the ankle from apex to finish. The result is very simaliar but I feel it keeps the whole inside half (upper body included) moving more with the skis and into the future then leaving my body and just pulling the foot back. I consider that move more of a correction type move. Which means I do it more than I probaly want to!!!
post #3 of 12
In an efficient (no extra movement baggage) C shaped turns I think you would be activly keeping the new inside foot under you (pulling it back) from transition to transition, with the the tip lead changing between the edge change and the falline. Somewhere there in the top half of the arc, as a matter of personal style, all would pass through "square", ski tips, feet, hips, shoulders. Unless a deliberate early countering movement gets all the inside parts leading the way coming right out of the transition.

I feel like my body unwinds from the transition to feeling all square about the falline, with the inside half of my body strongly leading through the last half of the turn as my legs turn somewhat more than my body wind me up again. I'm aware that I have the most tip lead (maybe 1-3") thru the last third or the turn even though I am pulling the inside foot back throughout the whole arc. I feel much less windup & unwinding in longer rounder turns than in short falline turns.

I aware that when I keep the inside foot continously engaged in both pulling back and tipping to drive turn shape from transition to transition, everthing else flows appropriatly. It's way fun!
post #4 of 12
While I am clearly below Roger's level I would have to ditto his comments.
post #5 of 12
Arcmeister's discussion on this and previous threads has been extremely lucid. I'd like to extend the discussion a little bit. What would you say, then, is the description of what happens when we "pull the inside ski tip into the turn?" Previous threads have shed some light on this by talking about lightening or pulling up, when we are in an inclined position. In the past, there was another post that said that this referred to pulling the inside ski back. So, exactly how do we pull the inside tip to start a turn. In what direction do we "pull" and is some of the action due to rolling onto the outside edge? Even if we think of the diverging step exercise in Bob's book discussing "thousand steps" it is still not entirely apparent how we arrive on the outside edge of the inside ski by "pulling." It will be interesting to see what a diversity of opinions we get on this. Bob recently discussed with SCSA pulling the inside ski away from the other one, but there must be more to it.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 14, 2001 03:27 PM: Message edited 1 time, by HarveyD ]</font>
post #6 of 12
pressuring from the middle of teh turn out.
post #7 of 12
I not sure of the refrence of "pulling the inside tip into the turn" but I can share my interpretation of the other Q's and maybe an answer will surface. My new inside ski gets to it's outside edge as a follow thru of rolling it off of it's inside edge to end (release) the previous turn. The pulling/sliding back of that foot on the snow really is to keep it from sliding forward and disengaging its ski tip. I teach this by holding someones uphill ski tip stationary while they try to slide the ski back under them, the goal is for them to feel the functional tension preventing the ski from sliding forward. Maybe this is a more applicable image/sensation than pulling the foot back. This functional tension maintains shin/boot tongue pressure that keeps that wonderfully flared/fat inside tip engaged and seeking to continue to lead into/around the arc. As long as this blended activity of rolling the inside foot/boot up onto its little toe edge while keeping it back is continously engaged (with enough retraction of that leg to just keep it lighter than the outside foot and maintain its stance/balance role), then varying its intensity and/or rate and/or duration provides a world of turn outcome options.

This simple movement package provides a gazillion blends for experimentation into cause and effect of how we can drive our skis with our feet. Ultimatly we can learn to actually use our skis as functional extensions of our feet. That we need only do with our feet (edge, pressure, rotary) whatever we desire/intend for our skis to do in the snow.

Keep inside foot under you, keep it lighter, keep it tipping, switch feet to go where you want to go, enjoy the ride. We certainly have shown over the decades that we can make it more complated that that, but we've also learned that we need not. :

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 14, 2001 06:14 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Arcmeister ]</font>
post #8 of 12
Arcmeister,your response sheds a lot of light on the subject.
Thank you.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 15, 2001 05:34 AM: Message edited 1 time, by HarveyD ]</font>
post #9 of 12
Relative to Ydnar's original question about what point we draw or pull the foot back I would like to add something to Roger's comments that seem to focus mostly on effects during turn initiation. I find that continuing to pull back the (old) inside foot through turn completion contributes to a very simple weight transfer to this foot. With this foot more "under" the skier, active uphill movement is not evoked and transfer can come from the simple release of the downhill (new inside) ski. This is probably the best ways to sense and learn about this potential efficiency (weight transfer through pure release) that can be incorporated into our skiing.
post #10 of 12
[quote]Originally posted by Ydnar:
In relation to the traditional C-shape turn at what point in the turn are you feeling yourself drawing the foot back under the body?

At what point in the turn are the ski tips even with each other?

Ydnar for "kicks" next time you have the opportunity to ski instead of "pulling" the inside foot back try this. (I hope this does not confuse the issue.)

Relax the inside leg/foot, actively start the turn with the inside ski, and then almost but not quite at the same instance actively forward pressure the OUTside ski throughthe turn. Think of scribing the arc of the turn you want with the outside foot. Caution: Do not pressure the outside ski through the turn too much or you may find yourself on your heels. Gain a "feel" of keeping forward pressure or moving the outside ski through the arc of the turn and yet not "forcing" the body rearward.

Now you have created "active" skiing with both skis/feet instead of releasing the inside ski and riding the edge pressure you created for turn shape on the outside ski. Both skis will actively develop the turn shape. On Midwest hard pack the edge seems to "hold" through the turn stronger than I experienced previously. This is obviously not a movement used for other than "strong" skiers. I find the movement of both skis into and throughout the turn more natural than pulling a foot back under my body except possibly in the bumps and then it would be both feet. By actively using both feet throughout the turn the resulant is my body will naturaly stay over both feet. As in most things more may be less or is it less may be more. You may also find a new "natural" tip lead and create better "angles" but I won't get into that now less I really confuse the topic.

I just returned from Frisco and Vail was great, Copper fine, Keystone was so so.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 15, 2001 09:47 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Floyd ]</font>
post #11 of 12
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arcmeister:
Keep inside foot under you, keep it lighter, keep it tipping, switch feet to go where you want to go, enjoy the ride. We certainly have shown over the decades that we can make it more complicated that that, but we've also learned that we need not. :<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will second that. In the last two weeks I have been playing with my "old school" style and "relearning" the new skis. Things like opening the stance, tipping earlier from the lower leg, "pulling" the "new ski" back, standing more even weighted, riding the flex etc.

In all this I have started thinking that I am "styling for the ski" instead of "skiing for the style". I have been having lots of fun on a pair of 158 Rossi WC slaloms but am finding that all this "perfect carving" is starting to hurt pyhsically. Do I want to ski like this all the time?, Do my clients? Can my clients? Is it relevant on anything other than smooth groomers?

The more things change the more they stay the same.

From the mixing pot later.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ December 15, 2001 11:15 AM: Message edited 1 time, by man from oz ]</font>
post #12 of 12
Thread Starter 
Thanks all for the responses, let me throw my answers to the questions into the mix.

I'm working to hold the new inside ski back under the body from the moment that it becomes the inside ski (at the moment of edge change). As Arcmiester suggests this way I keep the lead from becoming too great and actually having to pull the foot back.

My goal is through a combination of holding the inside foot back and sliding the outside foot forward along its arc to have the ski tips even at transition.

The body is passing through square at this moment of even tips and will be slightly (very,very slightly) countered as soon as the new arc is started. This produces a strong inside half or leading inside half of the body. This strong inside half is something that I learned way back before shaped skis but I think that it still applies but that the move on shaped skis is much more subtle.

I'm doing a new post along the lines of what Floyd was talking about but I'll start that as a new thread as I don't want to clutter things up too much here.

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