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virtual bump vs real bump

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I learn that carving is like virtual bump. How to convert that carving technique into real bump? What is the major difference?
post #2 of 15
The major difference for many skiers is the point of reference for balance and how tactics are employed. The muscle movement patterns are basically the same.

When it comes to point of reference. Most carvers initiate a carved turn and then stand against the edges. They trade stability for real dynamic balance in much of the turn. In essense, their point of reference is their base of support, the skis. They take the "from the feet up" quite literally. This works fine as long as you are on groomed snow.

In moguls the base of support is wildly changing and does not provide a stable point of reference. Skiing bumps falls apart if the base of support is used as the point of reference for balance. The core or the center of mass, provides a much better reference for both carving and bumps and is the center of dynamic balance. In bumps skiing from the core is much more critical than it is in carving. The center of mass (Core) should be allowed to flow freely and the skis guided in and out, up and down, under a free flowing stable core.

The other difference is tactics. Tactics are D.I.R.T.. Duration, intensity, rate and timing. These are the things that determine turn size and speed. Moguls are more like gates. Moguls demand a certain turn size that is slightly different for every turn. Free carving is far less demanding of a certain turn size.

50% of learning to ski bumps is skiing them in the first place. Moguls are like Oreo cookies. You cannot eat just one, might bite a few along the way and are very addicting. I have been addicted to bumps for more than 40 years. I switched to tele to get away from that addiction to no avail.
post #3 of 15
The major difference is that the retraction and extension movements in carving groomers becomes absorption and extension movements in the bumps. They are the same movements, but the intent is to maintain ski to snow contact and in the bumps, these movements have a much greater impact on your ability to control speed.
post #4 of 15
Quote:
How to convert that carving technique into real bump? What is the major difference?
The major difference I see in many skiers is how well they are really balanced over the skis. In bumps, the skier has to be really dynamically balanced over the skis, where on groomers, there is a lot of forgiveness and room for error.

RW
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.
post #6 of 15
Good feedback here alredy but here is my 2c. When you turn on a real bump the bump will lift you up. Talented skiers know how to use that upward lift to their advantage. Insted of having to extend in order to unweight they simply let the bump lift them up. Refined, it lifts you up but you dont use the full lift, only part of it. The rest you absorb with your legs. The virtual bump is when you are carving and you are comming out of the turn with a lot of rebound that is pushing you up. Use this upward enery the same way as in the bumps. Remember the videos of HH carving on the ridge!
post #7 of 15
For those unfamiliar with the term "VIRTUAL BUMP", it refers to the principle of how by turning we are constantly changing our angular relationship to the falline, and as such constantly varying the steepness of our descent.

Through the bottom of a turn we are progressively turning further and further out of the falline, and thereby progressively lessening the steepness of our line of travel. The sensation experienced is that of ascending up a large bump. The body feels compression.

Through the beginning of the next turn we change course and begin moving more and more TOWARDS the falline, and the hill steepens. We are now going down the back side of the bump and feel acceleration and a lightening of pressure.

Martin, carving true arc to arc in real moguls is very different because the moguls are smaller and we encounter them independant of our turn shape and falline. Carving arc to arc through bumps can be fun, if you have good knees, but I provide no promises on how long knees will stay good doing it.

As a side note; I've yet to see a video posted here on Epic, or anywhere for that matter, of someone carving arc to arc through moguls. It's not an activity most are up to skillwise, or if they are up to the task, willing to subject themselves to.
post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Carving arc to arc through bumps can be fun, if you have good knees, but I provide no promises on how long knees will stay good doing it.
Thanks for the warning. In fact I m more like just want to manage down big bumps risk free and therefore looking for some short cut advises here. Anyway, I found that the resort where I am now got a black bump slope. So probably I ll give it a try armed with the advises offered here.
post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
As a side note; I've yet to see a video posted here on Epic, or anywhere for that matter, of someone carving arc to arc through moguls. It's not an activity most are up to skillwise, or if they are up to the task, willing to subject themselves to.
I posted a video like that but it got slammed. The bumps were not big enough ! Said who, LOL, even small bumps look big at arc to arc speeds.

Martin, dont try it. Its not proper bump skiing. Try to ski one bump at a time and turn on the bumps not arround them. Go against the ruts. Flex and extend. Work with your legs. Check your speed at every bump. Take a lesson from a good instructor, Sölden is full of them. I envy you but Im going to st anton in three weeks .
post #10 of 15
I just want to add an aside here. The virtual bump seems really theoretical, but last year I raced in the Sugar Slalom at Stowe in near 60 degree temps. My second run was after nearly 1000 people had skied down the course. The "virtual" bump had become very real by then. It felt very much like bump skiing. The rut was a good 2 to 3 feet deep at the fall-line, but much, much smaller at edge-change.
post #11 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I posted a video like that but it got slammed. The bumps were not big enough ! Said who, LOL, even small bumps look big at arc to arc speeds.

Martin, dont try it. Its not proper bump skiing. Try to ski one bump at a time and turn on the bumps not arround them. Go against the ruts. Flex and extend. Work with your legs. Check your speed at every bump. Take a lesson from a good instructor, Sölden is full of them. I envy you but Im going to st anton in three weeks .
Oh! sure I am not brave enough to carve through big bumps. I only have 4 more skiing days left in my trip. I really want to try out all different things in skiing except freestyle.
I heard St. Anton got queues in holiday times so I avoided it. Here in Solden there are virtually no queues except the morning queue. I also avoided the morning queue by driving up the mountain half way.
post #12 of 15
Yea, but Stanton is quite something, especially Apres.
post #13 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
I just want to add an aside here. The virtual bump seems really theoretical, but last year I raced in the Sugar Slalom at Stowe in near 60 degree temps. My second run was after nearly 1000 people had skied down the course. The "virtual" bump had become very real by then. It felt very much like bump skiing. The rut was a good 2 to 3 feet deep at the fall-line, but much, much smaller at edge-change.
I saw the same thing today when I made my attempt to go through a race course. I avoided the rut altogether for safety. In fact I didn't get very close to the gate. Did you ski through the rut? Any special technique needed?
post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
I just want to add an aside here. The virtual bump seems really theoretical, but last year I raced in the Sugar Slalom at Stowe in near 60 degree temps. My second run was after nearly 1000 people had skied down the course. The "virtual" bump had become very real by then. It felt very much like bump skiing. The rut was a good 2 to 3 feet deep at the fall-line, but much, much smaller at edge-change.
its a shame I cant find picture of it because that is so big!!!

i saw it back in 06 on a really warm day and its got to be tough to deal with.
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
In essence, their point of reference is their base of support, the skis. They take the "from the feet up" quite literally.
[snip]
The core or the center of mass, provides a much better reference for both carving and bumps and is the center of dynamic balance.
[snip]
The center of mass (Core) should be allowed to flow freely and the skis guided in and out, up and down, under a free flowing stable core.
Oh wow - that explains so much!

I can remember how much I think about my feet in bumps - I remember telling Bob B how much easier bumps felt when there were trees around (Mmm - "Wounded Knee"). I put it down to not having to decide where to go (ie I went between the trees and ignored the bumps). But I think it also helped bring my focus up my body a little.

This is going on my list of "Gems to try if/when I hit snow this year!" - thanks again.
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