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Narrow/Wide Stance and Balance/Stability - Page 3

post #61 of 92
Many years ago, a chain oof fitness clubs called Body design by Gilda tried to sue Jane Fonda for using the pelvic tilt in her workout. Gilda claimed that she "invented" it. She lost the lawsuit!

Last year, "rebel" Pilates instructors won a lawsuit against those who call themselves the "original" Pilates studio. The trademark is now cancelled.
Michelle, don't be too worried.

I hope you never fear those mountains in the
Never settle for the path of least resistance

I hope you dance....
post #62 of 92
HH won the suit against Winter Park. So there is precidence. I was suggesting that she be careful, not start a war.

post #63 of 92

That's what I'm saying! Can't we just boil this all down to cults and gangs?

I don't know about you guys, but it'd sure be easier for me to follow along. I mean, now, Michele has a system. Pretty soon, Pierre will have one, then Ott, then gonz. Even Lisamarie will show up with something - "Have a ball (get it) Skiing, by Lisamarie".

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[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited September 04, 2001).]</FONT>
post #64 of 92
There are as many "systems" as their are coaches and instructors. Everybody is really a 'cult' of one.


"You're sure of that? You live in the same world, do you, as . . . a stockbroker, shall we say? Your life has been all tumbled and changed, I presume, by the new SEC policy - mandatory review of portfolios with shareholder investment loss more than fifty percent? You live in the same world as a tournament chess player, do you? With the New York Open going on this week, Petrosian and Fischer and Browne in Manhatten for a half-million-dollar purse, what are you doing in a hayfield in Maitland, Ohio?" ".... how many people do you think live in your world? You say four billion people live in your world? Are you standing there and telling me that four billion people do not live in four billion seperate worlds?"
Richard Bach - "Illusions: The adventures of a Reluctant Messiah"
post #65 of 92
I will only embrace your new system Pierre if you can promise I'll ski better than 97% of the skiers out there.
post #66 of 92
hey. that means I have to jump ship from tominator's system
I'm a charter member of xschuss! http://www.epic-ski.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000353.html

Or can I have multiple memberships? <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by dchan (edited September 04, 2001).]</FONT>
post #67 of 92
Pierre, really like this PISS system. I think it's a great idea we can turn into a concept.

Robin, since you've recently arrived and missed the Paul/PMTS Wacko/Scsa wars you probably don't know about that "other" video that's around. I've taken the liberty of dredging it up.

From: "Replies to "Wacko" posts http://www.epic-ski.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000331.html
May 08, 2001 08:40 PM
... Don’t forget that new film:
"The Wedge - Root of All Evil!"

In which Kevin Costner plays a down and out "Brother can you spare a tip?" ski instructor and finds salvation when he meets Harald Harb.
Together they battle to rid the slopes of the evil wedge that’s destroying the lives of thousands of begining skiers. On the way they meet up with new skier Paul ***** and so change his life that he gives his stocks to charity and roams the country as "PMTS Wacko". Spewing dialogue so inane he pisses off thousands and bores even more, he attempts to convert 97% of the skiing population who "just don’t get it". See how it ends!

posted May 08, 2001 10:45 PM
Oh, stupid me! The description of the movie continues on the back of the flyer I received:

"The Wedge-Root of All Evil!" -cont'd
See the begining where Harb "invents" the Phantom Move late one night during a vision while walking the streets of Aspen. Relish 'the triumph of the human spirit' as Costner decides to rebuild his life after Harald tells him "You're not such a bad guy."
See the rebuilding of the "Brother can you spare a tip? " down and out ski instructor (Costner). When finally he learns the Phantom Move he's totally reborn and screams "I can ski!! I can ski!!"
Witness the Dark Side as Harb forces Costner to change his sideburns every two weeks!
See the brutal courtroom battle that ensues after a judge says of the Phantom Move:
"Are you kidding? What is this? Hasn't that been taught for years?"

Oh you'll see this battle's no phantom!
Watch how the new skier Paul struggles with learning and gets nowhere until he meets Harb and enters the Valley of All Knowledge!
You'll be tickled as you watch Costner teach the Phantom Move! Then Paul rockets past 97% of all skiers with his skills! Enjoy Paul's glory but feel the agony as Costner doesn't get a tip!
See Costner crushed as he realizes Paul is a better skier than he is! Shattered and disillusioned Costner grows a beard!! He tells Harb "I'm not cuttin' these 'burns!"
You'll feel the pain as Harb throws Costner out of the Valley of All Knowledge!
Then Harb annoints Paul as his disciple and proclaims: "You are now ‘PMTS Wacko’ !"
See the struggles as Wacko tries to convert 97% of the skiing population! Watch as he tries to show twin tippers at Snow Summit the glories of his ways and they tell him "Dude, will you just shut the f*** up! You're a Gaper!!"
You'll gasp when Harb and his disciple go play golf down south and find guess who as the golf pro? Costner!
Costner slyley pretends not to care! He's sporting curled sideburns!
Revenge comes however, as Costner disables the golf cart brakes just before the steepest hill on the course. As the cart careems downhill out of control Harb and Wacko scream "Phantom Move!!" and jump out deploying the move!
Will they survive with the Phantom Move? Does Costner get the ultimate revenge?
You'll have to .....see how it ends!

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[This message has been edited by Tog (edited September 04, 2001).]</FONT>
post #68 of 92
Lest you think this a dead story I should update you on the situation.

Of course lawsuits are now flying over "The Wedge: Root of All Evil". Believe it or not, the film now has quite a huge following. Though in typical Costner/Harb fashion the story's a little messy. The story involves 7- Eleven and tapes dropped off by Costner personally, some bored kids and a little shop lifting, and well of course Kevin Costner...

Yes, Costner toured the western ski towns in a beat up ’65 Falcon station wagon with the back filled with the videos. With no room because of the tapes life was harsh since he slept outside of the car in the cold. Soon however, Costner was inspired while sleeping underneath the car. See, his best ideas come to him when he "lets himself go". In this case he was starting to grow a beard and his clothes had become dirty and a little smelly. In the car there were signs of "Life on the Edge". Strewn about the front of the car were empty boxes of chocolate frosted donuts, coffee cups, bottles of Powerade, Beef Jerky strips, bits of popcorn, and a few empty cans of Dinty Moore Beef stew. The beef stew had been particularly harsh since he’d eaten it cold!

He’d gotten stuck in the snow in the middle of the night and been forced to wait out the storm. Out of doughnuts, and with the rallying cry of "There’ll be no Donner Party here boys!", (of course he was the only one there), Costner was determined to get through the night.. He scrounged up his Swiss Army knife and tore into the cold can of Dinty Moore. After he’d finished he dug his passage under the car and sacked out in the sleeping bag. While stroking his new gritty beard he suddenly saw his life. The endless miles, the flat tires, the nasty store clerks, the doughnuts, the coffee, his dirty clothes. This was hard core!! He’d thought he’d really gone to the edge while making WaterWorld but this was so far beyond that. WaterWorld was harsh... but....warm! Here he was freezing! Just eating the frozen doughnuts was a struggle. (Thank God he’d stocked up on hand and toe warmers!) Then the epiphany hit him, he was a modern Jack London! This was his Call of the Wild! He was so far from that prissy LA lifestyle of gyms, nice cars and health food! Hell he’d eaten only refined flours, sugars and canned goods for weeks! Even...the ultimate nemesis to health food... Slim Jims!

....[to be continued]
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[This message has been edited by Tog (edited September 04, 2001).]</FONT>
post #69 of 92

OMG Tog, you write and direct it, I volunteer to edit...

The Slim Jim Dude pops his head out of the snow and sez: "Eeeeeaaaattt Mmmmeeeeeeeeee"

Visit me here >>>SnoKarver

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[This message has been edited by SnoKarver (edited September 04, 2001).]</FONT>
post #70 of 92
Hey Tog.... Now who's out of control???????

He's actually very mellow in person. Trust me!
post #71 of 92
I heard Slim Jims were made from hydroponic cattle...coulda been someone yankin my stance foot.
post #72 of 92
Now all we need is a song to characterize the skiers style. That can be the movie theme!
post #73 of 92
**Quote by Bob B on wide stance: "Turns on skis are, very simply, lateral moves. Only a naturally open stance allows these moves with any quickness and precision." **

This quote alone confirms my suspicion that Bob looks at skiing through a very narrow set of blinders. While I agree that the "naturally open stance" allows for great versatility on the mountain - don't ever for a moment think that a more closed stance can be inaffective. I'd honestly like to see you skiing alongside Nelson Carmichael - a person who I consider has a fairly "forced" close stance. Maybe you're much more versatile than Nelson in most terrain, I dunno, but still i'd like to see if you have the ability to admit an erronious assumption. Contrived-stance-Carmichael "owns the mountain" in his own particular way.

**Quote by Bob B, "...It's easy to simulate the problem indoors, too. Stand with your feet together, then try to make a quick lateral move--jump sideways--without separating your feet! Now try the same quick lateral move with your feet apart--it's easy, much quicker, and much more "efficient"! This is why football players, tennis players, and hockey goalies don't glue their feet together when preparing themselves for action." **

Bob Barnes - the fallacy here is that you TOO are guilty of not recognising that "Skiing is NOT Static". Your assumption that a wider stance allows for a quicker response on the skiers upper mass (CM?, whatever!) to gravity by merely unweighting one leg, completely neglects the fact that skiers are actually MOVING. Granted, at standstill or slow carves your and Pierre's method is more productive. But as one approaches a medium or high rate of speed, a skier can use momentum and edging to blend simple oversteer ("countersteer") tactics which you mentioned in your (my) motorcyle analogy. Not only is this an extremely effective method of getting your feet out from under your body quickly and setting up the angulation needed, but FAR QUICKER and MORE EFFORTLESS than by just "lifting one of the feet in a wide stance to force a shift of weight". If you want a visual example, take a ladder leaning against a house at about 80 deg. to horizontal with a painter perched at the top. Which is more effective to quickly get the ladder in a 45 deg. angle, moving the house away or kicking out the bottom of the ladder?

This dynamic turn is the reason people can link rapid quick-turns: the somewhat 'straighter-line-of-travel' of the upper body opposing the relatively much more exaggerated lateral moves of the lower body. This same principle allows a single-ski slalom water skier to more quickly and effectively cut turns at each end of the rope swing and, interestingly enough, this example shows exactly why an extremely narrow stance (one foot behind the other) can be effective in that the inside foot is never left in the way to interfere inside the "line of cut". If you think a wider stance significantly helps this affect better than subtle edge movements then I suggest you start watching some professional slalom snowboarders at work. I am sure you will be greatly enlightened... and if not, then I realise that what Ski professor says is probably true -- that you are operating on a very different (limited) field of vision in your conception of the ideal ski 'model'.

**Quote by Bob B: "Actually, I'm surprised we're even debating this issue. It's been many, many years since the days of contrived, prescribed, unnaturally narrow--or wide--stances. Ski instruction abandoned these affectations generations ago! "

Not true at all Bob. The most "contrived, prescribed" thing in skiing today is ski instructors persistently advocating 'clean carving' as the highest form of turning... and 'skidding' as something to put your noses up at. I see it on the mountain every day, and I read it in the instructional part of this forum much of the time. You, Pierre, Ott, and plenty of others are very... very narrow-minded in your opinions of what makes for the "right way" to ski. You're quick to acknowledge that certain techniques 'have their place' but very limited in your ability to understand that there are many "right ways" to ski and what works well for you doesn't always for others.

Again, with their present infatuation on it, I sometimes wonder how many instructors here actually could carve clean turns before the advent of shaped skis.

how was that Pierre... more like my old self?
post #74 of 92
Cheap Seats,

Way to go! You hit the nail on the head. He's guilty of the what he condemns. I've known it since the fog cleared.

Follow him around long enough and you'll run into all kinds of contradictions. I'm glad someone else here can see it too. I get email from others who see it but they won't post it - cuz the friggin gang has a monopoly on ski instruction and they're afraid they won't get a job.

This forum needs to wake up and realize what's good for this sport - change.

I know you're not as militant as I am, but keep it up man. Keep an eye on this crew and call 'em to the carpet whenever you have the chance. Too bad that most of 'em will run like a hooker from confession.
post #75 of 92

Sometimes you really crack me up... but do me a favor and stay off my side
post #76 of 92
Cheap, Nelson Carmichael is a great example. I did my tour, bumping during a big change in competition judging when Nano Portier started the whole knee lock gig. Judging criteria is now totally aesthetically biased, with great import on no knee seperation. All surf technique, rotary, straight zipperline on manufactured bumps...any speed control is friction-based, just swallowing and spitting. A stark contrast to what Nelson and others like Stu O'Brian were doing in the early eighties. Just too narrow a discipline to use for comparative argument. Outside competition or training, his feet and legs come apart.

All of us, bereft of "simulators" are stuck with static analogy...some apply, but introduce movement to a static excercise and you need motion as well. I will leave the "ladder" and "waterski" discussion to Bob (as I am sure he is furiously typing away)as this biomechanical subthread is his to reply to.

It is absurd to imply that the gang adheres to some narrow minded, restrictive bent in comparison to HH's progression based teaching methodology. It is precisely ATS's open yet clearly defined skill based skiing model that is so appealling...it embraces all that is fundamentally, and biomechanically sound, including aspects of PMTS. And yes, I could carve turns before the advent of shaped skis...thanks for wondering.
post #77 of 92
I do seem to recall a slight taper in the waist! When I raced on Fischer, they even had asymetric sidecuts and double side cuts...or was that in a dream?
The first "shapes" I got on were S skis out of Aspen during a November managers meeting at Keystone....seems like a long time ago now! I do recall intuitively trying to carve on them...wonder where I got that from? As it turned out, they were torsionally noodles...carved better on the straights.
Incidently, for the record, Bob, I for one appreciate not only the thoughtful and evenhanded content of your posts, but would credit you for being ONE TOLERANT SOB (GENTLEMAN). SCSA's incessant rantings have now been relegated to the posture of vicarious cheerleader...where do I send the POM-POM's? I find your posts consistant and unempeachable. Your assertion to that fact is irrefutable...I await evidence to the contrary.

Edit: addition<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Robin (edited September 05, 2001).]</FONT>
post #78 of 92
quote from Bob B: "When I'm talking "turns," I'm talking about controlled direction changes--lateral moves--to differentiate "turning" from the many other valid things we do on skis."

Nope, haven't seen him on a course. Unlike yourself, I don't consider a course the only venue to categorize a skiers abilities. Yes, i've seen him moving around the mountain (that is: laterally from side-to-side on a trail), not just "straight down the fall-line" and, yes he can do it with incredible efficiency in a fairly CLOSED stance. Do I think this is necessarily the best method? For him, yes. Not for me.

re-quote from Bob B: "Only a naturally open stance allows these moves with any quickness and precision."

The word "ONLY" to me implies "[no other option but] a natural stance allows these moves with any quickness and precision". I disagreed, and used an example which you managed to disqualify by using your professions "vehemently advocated versatility and well-rounded, unbiased" definition of what constitutes a "turn". I'm glad you instructors are so incredibly objective.

quote from Bob B: " But in a wider stance, the "bottom of the ladder" is ALREADY out there--to EITHER side--no "kicking out" required."

So I take it that you must ski with your feet about to 4 feet apart. No? Tell me how far apart they must be to have the line (ladder) between your CM and your controlling inside edge at 45 deg. to the horizon. I don't know where my CM is in a normal erect stance, but i'd say that if I had my feet 8"-10" apart the line between my CM and my controlling edge would be aproximately 80 deg. or greater from horizontal - certainly not close to 45 deg.. So, in fact, contrary to what you've suggested, the bottom of the ladder (your weighted foot) is NOT "ALREADY out there". At 80 deg. you still have to wait for the ladder to topple: first 'out' slowly, then gradually accelerating down. At speed, with a preliminary "counterturn" (say to the right), you have immediately set up the angulation for a rail to the left. "Overturning" at the end of this rail, rockets your CM across to set up angulation for a turn to the right - FAR faster than waiting for the ladder to topple.

[PLEAD] Look, at this point I admit that I have far less ability of explanation about this type of thing than Bob Barnes, but I refuse to let someone with as much influence as himself, continue on using an arguement based on a "static" diagram rather than a more correct "dynamic" one. I know this is a bit of a cop out, but I wonder if there's anyone out there that grasps even a thread of my poorly explained concept of oversteering, and if so, can possibly help Mr Barnes out of his rectangular box? If not i'll justadmit i'm wrong and be finished. [/END PLEAD]

quote by Bob B: "as I also described (remember Mark Twain?)"

Actually Bob, I think one of your posts here explained most everything in the universe... but i'm glad you're able to be as condescending as I, all the same.
post #79 of 92
I apologize in advance, Cheap, but who are you responding to? Me? Someone else? Did someone post then edit?
If it was me, my stance is about 3" to 16" wide I figure, depending, within normal skiing...greater or lesser sometimes. I tend to narrow in bumps and widen on course...fairly typical. Powder, usually narrow, depends on speed, depends on slope...to many variables.
The ladder thing, I am just not grasping...sorry...I'll read it again, but I made no reference to it...therefore I wonder if you are addressing me or some other etherial being.
post #80 of 92

I had expected that with a racing background, you would obviously know how to carve - even the "less" shaped skis of yesteryear. (Bob is really good at manipulating words to his own advantage!)

My accusation has nothing to do with your ATS/PMT strife and everything to do with the gang being brainwashed into the black 'n white notion that "skidding = BAD" and "carving = GOOD". Sure I'm generalizing - of course. But it's easy to see people, pros and students alike getting this notion that anything but clean carves are less than perfect. The 'feel' of seemlessly feathering from a carve to a skid, or from a skid to a carve can be as gratifying (and sometimes much more useful) than just always cranking off one clean turn after another. Do I ever hear of the benefits of this difficult-to-master technique from instuctors? Check out the topic going on right now on this very subject.

You know, I honestly think that young racers today are far less adept in these particular techniques than they were just five years ago. The concentration now is on clean turns - this keeps the kids from putting any skid time in. Sure, this may sound like a version of grandpa's statement, "In my day we had to get up and walk over to the TV set to change the channel" . But again, I say that easier isn't always better. Especially if people are learning "easy" clean turns at the expense of important edge control characteristics like skarving.

**And my previous post was a result of Bob's 'head patting' response to my arguement. It's obvious you must be correct that arguements of "dynamic" situations are too complicated to convey, so I'll drop it. It certainly hasn't entertained me like Gonzos post anyway. <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Cheap seats (edited September 05, 2001).]</FONT>
post #81 of 92
I could not agree with you stronger.
post #82 of 92
Cheap, I get the ladder thing ( I think), but I'm not sure I understand your waterskiing example . Are you talking about sharp "Z" turns where you pivot on the back of the ski? Because if the front of the ski is in the water, I find it impossible at 34 mph to "turn" the ski, too much resistance from the water. All that is available is to edge the ski. All waterskiing taught me was to carve!
post #83 of 92
How does all this fit in with crossunder? I feel I would react faster with a relatively narrower stance using crossunder moves. It just seems that if my stance is wider then the inside ski would get in the way.
post #84 of 92

Cheap threw me out of his boat. But remember, in addition to being a genius and good looking, I'm also a great swimmer.

I think it was something I said...
post #85 of 92
When we last left our hero Kevin Costner was stuck in a snow storm in the '65 Falcon Wagon with the tapes of "The Wedge:Root of all Evil"

[ previous post is here: 9/4/01 8:24pm http://www.epic-ski.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000476-2.html ]

There he was, underneath the car in his sleeping bag, the toe warmers dying, yet he was free at last of all ties to the petty civilization that kept trashing his movies! He knew now that he’d win. He’d distribute those movies with renewed passion and soon people would watch them. He knew if the people watched them then they’d love him again. He didn’t need LA! He just had to get the tapes out!
In the morning he amazed himself by eating a can of beef stew that was completely frozen for God’s sake! Then he dug the car out with a "shovel" he’d made of a couple of branches, some videos, and some duct tape. (Duct tape...ah...poor Jack never had duct tape! God he loved the skills he’d learned on his movies from the Grips!)

So Costner distributed the tapes like a maniac. Who could refuse him? It was easier than calling the police and getting him thrown out. It was in Bishop, California that the twin tipper kids found it. Actually, one of them stole it. That title, "The Wedge: Root of all Evil" and a picture of Aspen Mt. caught his eye. Was it porn? After languishing in a pack for awhile, the tape eventually was put in as background for a drunken party. There they made an incredible discovery. Unbeknownst even to Costner, an editor had slipped in some footage of new schoolers pulling tricks at the end of "The Wedge". Costner’s camera crew, bored to tears with his movie were freed up for an afternoon while Costner trimmed his ‘burns. They wandered over to a half pipe and some jumps to film the tricks. The editor took it upon himself to "save the tape" and put something decent at the end.

Well the new schoolers went crazy over this stuff. They’d never seen these tricks! Who were these people? Soon the Powder Mag forum was all abuzz. People took credit, they were flamed. There was so much back and forth the server crashed . Word had gone out though, "Steal that tape!". It became known as "That rippin tape with the Dorks on it".

[more to come....]
post #86 of 92
Tog, the HECK with Costenor. YOU play the lead! You have that sort of David Boreanz look going for you. Would make things a bit more interesting!
post #87 of 92
Well, I was gonna drop it cause it really didn't matter to me that much - i've always known the correct answer to stance issues, at least as it's related to me.

Barnes subtle ridiculing of anyone who attempts question his authority clouded my original purpose tho - which was to point out the strength of skiprofessors original post. So, in an effort to use an example that most can relate to (rather than "Barnes Gospel"), i'll put the "Blizzard of Ahhhhhs" on the table.

Here was a movie that matched up two entirely different styles: the racer-widerstance-independentsuspension-railcarve-compactness of Scot Schmidt, and the moguler-closestance-swivelturning-tall'n'narrowness of Glen Plake.
Now I went into that movie with the impression that Schmidtts technique was the most appropriate for MOST conditions. It's fairly bombproof - and when the going got rough, the strengths shown through. But... there's a couple of unusual things I learned from Plakes style.
#1 is just the fact that his 'spermturner' style was good enough to get him into one of the truely great ski movies.
#2 is the fact that being competent on skiing on just your outside edge of your uphill is not necessarily a bad thing - sorry coach!
#3 is the fact that there is a completely different 'balance' mechanic involved in an extremely narrow stance... and if used properly it can be rock-solid.

Number 3 is what skiprofessor was explaining, and I thought well. This balance doesn't come the principle of a 'solid' stance in static position, but rather from just the opposite - it comes from a very unstable, wobbly stance with the interesting characteristic of allowing for almost instantaneous corrections. To explain this further, I took up telemarking back about six years ago and found it offered very little of the power and stability of my alpines - especially on ice. To combat this instability I simply turned more often, my reasoning being that your edge can't lose grip and slide out from under you if you don't stay on it long enough for the failure to happen. It taught me that stability can also come from constant motion.

Think of a gyroscope - here is an object that can stand on a tiny little single point and not be knocked over, even from an outside force. It has an internal balance which is very strong to combat the force of outside interaction.

Plake taught me that we all have an internal gyroscope that can learn to counteract abrupt changes in attitude through micro adjustments rather than powering through them with force.

It hasn't changed my overall style - but it's certainly been a great supplement to it.
post #88 of 92
Pierre eh! For me the movements I use for powder and crossunder on groomed are very similiar. I have found that for me a narrower stance works better. If I make it to Fernie maybe you can show me what you are talking about.
post #89 of 92
Hey Pierre,

Looks like you and Barnes have been hanging out a lot. Are your knees sore?
post #90 of 92
Cheapseats, you used the example of Glen Plake for a narrow stance. It's my understanding that he skis on 212cm boards. I'm not sure with those one would even attempt a wider stance. He prides himself on proving it's the pilot not the plane and I'd certainly agree. I don't think anyone would recommend you go out and get 210's.
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