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Is it rude to question?

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
I have three three options to have new bindings mounted to new skis and would like to know which is the best scenario.

Here's the situation:

1 - I can mount them myself as I know I can get the bindings mounted where they need to be and have the know how to do so. I don't have experience with the new binding and could "wing it" by feel to get by on the slopes.

2 - There is a man at a recreation center (On a military base, because I'm active duty military) that looks and talks like he never skied a day his life. He's a rental expert and sells very little, if any, retail. He can fit a first timer for boots but nothing more in that aspect as I inquired about his fitting process already. He would do the work for very little, and maybe even nothing, however I don't like my first impression though it was very brief.

3 - Proceed Squaw Valley, Tahoe on my day trip and let the kid/mature adult perform the mounting and setting up of the bindings there and on the morning of?


I trust myself to mount the bindings correctly. I don't trust myself for setup. So I want to ask a few question to whomever does the work (If you guys think this is out of line, and the shop would be put off by myself asking, then I'll just trust their judgement and not ask).

So I would like ask these questions to the man/women working on MY equipment to test THIER knowledge and my faith in their shop. I would also like for you guys to add ANY QUESTIONS YOU ALL MIGHT THINK I SHOULD ask or not ask:

How do you set the forward pressure of the binding/boot?
-What checks are done to ensure it is correct?

Concerning DIN settings, does this affect forward pressure when adjusting?
-Do you check forward pressure first and then adjust the DIN, or DIN - FWD Press - Din checks in that order

DO you have a way of testing the DIN setting to ensure it releases at a proper tension?

How do you know where to mount an adjustable/railflex binding?
-Is there a preferred position on the ski for this type of binding?

So these are my questions for now. Some are simple and I know what the right answer should be. But, what answers should I expect that give me a good vibe about the person doing the work???? This might also help other folks not in the know-how or know-what, so they can test the person performing the work on their skis. Are they capable; one might ask???????

Much thanks for all with advice!!!!!

Kevin
post #2 of 28
My first question to you is...
If you ask the questions of someone else, what do you expect as the answers?
(e.g. your final questions about the mounting position do not have one "correct" answer, in my opinion)

To be honest, if I was the shop guy and you asked me, I would consider it a little rude (although a lot of that depends on your attitude and how you ask the questions).
What might be a better suggestion would be to find a good shop (ask on here for suggestions) go to the shop and ask to watch how they do it. If they have the time, you'll be able to see what they do and how they do it. It may not be exactly how you would do it, but you need to remember that it's not the process, but the final outcome which is important.
post #3 of 28
Just ask them (nicely) to explain how the process works, as you are interested. They can usually show you fairly easily.

In a nutshell, DIN settings and forward pressure are two seperate things. Forward pressure is really determined by the pressure the bindings exert on your ski in combination with your sole length, i.e. if you have too little FP, your boot will pop out regarldess of DIN setting, where if you have too much, your boot may not release at the proper time in a fall, thereby causing possible injuries. DIN setting take into account 3 things: your weight, your boot sole length, and your "skier type".

When a binding is mounted or adjusted, they are torque tested. This is done by placing the boot in the binding, and testing it's release value in 2 types of releases against a standard set by the binding manufacturer. If the release value falls within the parameters set, it is considered functional. If it fails, adjustments to your DIN can be made to allow for out-of-spec tests. If it's a new binding, it should be returned to the manufacturer, and a replacement should be mounted.

Does that help at all?

BTW, if you trust yourself to mount them but not to adjust them, you should probably be doing NEITHER. You don't know enough about them to do it right if your asking about FP adjustments, which is probably what you should know before you start mounting clamps. Just sayin'.
post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post
My first question to you is...
If you ask the questions of someone else, what do you expect as the answers?
(e.g. your final questions about the mounting position do not have one "correct" answer, in my opinion)
I know how the DIN and fwd pres. are two separate things. I know that the DIN is checked and verified with a torque test; is a guy kickng the boot to see if it comes out, maybe there is a push/pull gauge hooked up to front or rear of boot to check release pressure?. I don't know anything about setting fwd pres or if there are checks for it. I don't know if fwd pressure has affect on DIN release (I'm pretty sure it does though) On a park ski I would mount binding forward with option to go back 30, traditional ski would have mounted regular position with option to go +15 or -15

Quote:
To be honest, if I was the shop guy and you asked me, I would consider it a little rude (although a lot of that depends on your attitude and how you ask the questions).
I'm a nice guy and definitely would not walk into any place with attitude
Quote:
What might be a better suggestion would be to find a good shop (ask on here for suggestions) go to the shop and ask to watch how they do it. If they have the time, you'll be able to see what they do and how they do it. It may not be exactly how you would do it, but you need to remember that it's not the process, but the final outcome which is important.
True, very true. I know my knees aren't getting any younger as I've had a couple issues over the past few years I just want to be sure now, in the past I never cared LOL
post #5 of 28
Wait...wha..what was this thread about again?
post #6 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
BTW, if you trust yourself to mount them but not to adjust them, you should probably be doing NEITHER. You don't know enough about them to do it right if your asking about FP adjustments, which is probably what you should know before you start mounting clamps. Just sayin'.
Ditto.
post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklgirl View Post
Ditto.
Just to let you guys know, I'm not lobbying to to justify doing the mount and setup myself. I KNOW I can't do it and shouldn't do it..........

Just learning about what needs to done and how it's done. I like like to learn about what I pay somebody to do before I pay them whatever to do it....

I just want to be able to spot shoddy workmanship or a getting ripped off. For example, I don't bring my car to the dealership for a $300 oil change and "check up" of fluids. I change my own oil and have learned to check the fluids myself. Get my point?

So with my ski setup, I want to be able to recognize when something is not quite right. So why not start with asking folks questions about how it's should be done right from the start.

Maybe it's taboo to want to learn about binding adjustment?

Apologize in advance for being blunt.

Kevin
post #8 of 28
Hi!

What includes this mounting of bindings? Can you damage skis or bindings during the process?

If you can damage your equipment, then professionals should do it. If you want to learn, then talk to them and watch them doing...

I have mounted and adjusted Rossignol Axium and Fischer Railflex 2 bindings for myself and my wife... They are very simple to mount

As for adjustment... For normal skiing it is enough to set front and rear springs for ( Weight (kg) / 10 ) . As for me it is 7.5
My wife is novice so I set her Rear = (Weight (kg) / 12).
I don't know if there some more adjustments needed / available

Both of us have never lost a ski when skiing and never had any injuries when falling as binding releases quite well... I am satisfied with it...

And for first time skiing take a skrewdriver with you... In case something is wrong...
post #9 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumb Swede
Actually....I forgot to mention the real reason I was pissed lol. I could have lived with .75 back. Unfortunately, they weren't both at .75, they mounted them in slightly different places.

All is good now though.....they were apologetic today. I didn't even have to ask, they offered up a new pair today. I pick them up on Thursday. So wish me luck....again. At this point, when I get them back, I am not even going to look at the mount. I am going to go with the theory, ignorance is bliss.

I will post a follow up...though


You said: "I'd be standing there waiting with my own tape measure & calipers."
This scenario is why I want to know about what is going on with my skis and my hard earned dollar!!!!!! I don't want my ski off by whatever measurement, I want it done right once.

SO I have my my own tape measure and caliper, I want to know what to tape and measure. This is all I'm trying to figure out when getting my ski back from a shop.

Thanks buddy,

Kevin
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinVB View Post
This scenario is why I want to know about what is going on with my skis and my hard earned dollar!!!!!! I don't want my ski off by whatever measurement, I want it done right once.

SO I have my my own tape measure and caliper, I want to know what to tape and measure. This is all I'm trying to figure out when getting my ski back from a shop.

Thanks buddy,

Kevin
His problem was a bit different in scope - it was a shop that messed up a mount twice, and was going to take a third shot at it. Not apples to apples necessarily.

Just make sure the bindings are centered side to side (within reason - a millimeter or so is not a HUGE deal), and that they are also mounted in the same place fore/aft. Don't use the graphics on the top sheet as your guide however, as they are off as often as they are on. The metal edge should be your guide.
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by irafar View Post
Hi!

What includes this mounting of bindings? Can you damage skis or bindings during the process?

If you can damage your equipment, then professionals should do it. If you want to learn, then talk to them and watch them doing...

I have mounted and adjusted Rossignol Axium and Fischer Railflex 2 bindings for myself and my wife... They are very simple to mount

As for adjustment... For normal skiing it is enough to set front and rear springs for ( Weight (kg) / 10 ) . As for me it is 7.5
My wife is novice so I set her Rear = (Weight (kg) / 12).
I don't know if there some more adjustments needed / available

Both of us have never lost a ski when skiing and never had any injuries when falling as binding releases quite well... I am satisfied with it...

And for first time skiing take a skrewdriver with you... In case something is wrong...
This is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Weight is just one of three factors. Boot sole length and skier ability are two other KEY factors you did not take into account. This type of thinking is why knees injuroies are common with "home techs". You know enough to be dangerous.

Be careful.
post #12 of 28
I have to agree with axe -- that's a real oversimplification. Height and age also factor in. And if you don't set the forward pressure correctly, none of it matters.
post #13 of 28
Unless you have the appropriate mounting jigs from the binding manufacturer, mounting your own bindings is a very bad idea. I highly recommend that you have any and all binding mounted by a shop that carries your brand.

Mike
post #14 of 28
Ask four people and you might get four answers for correct DIN. Here's an online calculator that looks like it is giving values in the ball park for me.

http://www.dinsetting.com/

I mount all my own bindings, but I've been doing it for 30 years and haven't drilled through a ski in many years. I have stripped out a hole or two though. Unless you are wililng to accept the fact that it is likely that you could ruin the ski, or worse, have a major failure while skiing on it fast in the trees, I recommend that you leave it to someone experienced. I had the luxury of watching others do it many times and learned from it. There's more to it than appears on the surface, forward pressure is a good example. What to do if a hole strips (even with torque driver) is another one.
post #15 of 28
OK, now that you explained what you're looking for.....

The shop will:
  1. Determine the correct mounting point based on the manufacturer's mark/experience/customer preference/intended use.
  2. Use a jig to center the binding and drill the correct holes at the correct depth, based on the customer's BSL.
  3. Mount the binding using the correct screws at specified torque values.
  4. Set the forward pressure using the actual boots (FP settings may vary due to variances in boot manufacturing or boot wear) and mark a R & L to specify the boot it was set to. Each binding is different in how it indicates correct FP.
  5. Set the customer's DIN based on weight/height/BSL/skier type/age.
  6. Use a calibrated machine to check that each part of each binding releases at the correct torque setting for the set DIN.
Does that answer it for you? Most shops would have no problem having you watch and ask questions, if they have the time and their insurance permits. Failure to have a certified tech mount the bindings may nullify any warranty on both the bindings and the skis. Just FYI.
post #16 of 28
Kevin,
In the original post, you refer to railflex bindings, but, you did not specify the type of bindings you have. It would be helpful to know the specific binding, ski and if your skis all-ready have the railflex plate installed. You can do a Epic search of most bindings and find out a lot of info.

Any worthwhile shop should answer these specific questions:
- Is the person who installs my bindings certified by the manufacturer of the binding.
- Does the shop have the manufacturer jig for locating the hole positions, if not, then how do they locate holes.
- Ask how the shop locates the mounting mid-point for your specific skis. Some skis come with a centerpoint mark. Generally, the mid-point of your boot will be directly over this line, but you could have an entire post about this one point.
- Ask if you can read the manufacture instructions on correct setting for forward pressure and then, check it when you get the skis back. Often, shops will have a premounted demo binding and they can show you how this is set so that you can check it.
- Ask them to walk you through the process for determining your din setting.
- Ask what device is used to test DIN settings, and, ask if you could see an actual test when you pick the skis up.

If you don't like what you are hearing, walk away.
post #17 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Living Proof View Post
Kevin,
In the original post, you refer to railflex bindings, but, you did not specify the type of bindings you have. It would be helpful to know the specific binding, ski and if your skis all-ready have the railflex plate installed. You can do a Epic search of most bindings and find out a lot of info.

Any worthwhile shop should answer these specific questions:
- Is the person who installs my bindings certified by the manufacturer of the binding. Yes
- Does the shop have the manufacturer jig for locating the hole positions, if not, then how do they locate holes. No, no jig
- Ask how the shop locates the mounting mid-point for your specific skis. Some skis come with a centerpoint mark. Generally, the mid-point of your boot will be directly over this line, but you could have an entire post about this one point. centre mark mid point on ski
- Ask if you can read the manufacture instructions on correct setting for forward pressure and then, check it when you get the skis back. Often, shops will have a premounted demo binding and they can show you how this is set so that you can check it. I've read them and the person I spoke with had no idea, he said he had to check a manual, which I provided
- Ask them to walk you through the process for determining your din setting.he walked me through a chart based on his rental skis
- Ask what device is used to test DIN settings, and, ask if you could see an actual test when you pick the skis up. Never got that far, but I'm doubtful he has a the tester

If you don't like what you are hearing, walk away.
They didn't want to do my skis, so it was mutual
post #18 of 28
An interesting point that the OP raises though, is whether or not the "kid" at the store is trustable.

Most people (not users of this forum) buy a ski from a store, leave it there for a few days to get mounted, and come to pick it up. They have no idea who worked on it, they assume that it was a tech certified on that type of ski. The store would be taking a liability otherwise. However, businesses are known to bend corners.

I had my skis mounted this week, and in less than an hour the store called to let me know they were mounted. I got the bindings for the ski (integrated bindings) from an unknown source (long long story), and asked them to make sure that the bindings worked. However, I have no proof that my bindings actually got tested or that they passed the test.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by uricmu View Post
I had my skis mounted this week, and in less than an hour the store called to let me know they were mounted. I got the bindings for the ski (integrated bindings) from an unknown source (long long story), and asked them to make sure that the bindings worked. However, I have no proof that my bindings actually got tested or that they passed the test.


When I was a backshop rat, ski work tags had the following pass/fail check areas:

Visual inspection of gear - the gear must meet some safety standards set by the industry

Function test - to see if the toes returned to center and heel unit latches in and releases

Torque test for the toe - the toe piece is supposed to release within a certain torque range

Torque test for the heel - the heel is supposed to release within a certain torque range

If all that was checked as "pass" and signed by the tech, then the work was done. Did you receive a copy of the work tag? If you didn't receive a copy, go back to the shop and get one.

By the way, integrated ski and binding setups can be mounted and tested in less than 15 minutes (some less than 10) by a competent ski tech.

Dennis
post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny1969 View Post
If all that was checked as "pass" and signed by the tech, then the work was done. Did you receive a copy of the work tag? If you didn't receive a copy, go back to the shop and get one.

By the way, integrated ski and binding setups can be mounted and tested in less than 15 minutes (some less than 10) by a competent ski tech.

Dennis
I didn't get a work tag from them or anything like that. They didn't seem as organized as some larger places that I've seen (didn't get to sign anything when making the order, just when I received the equipment and I'm not even 100% sure about that, it might have been the bill). I'm in a metro of about 200k with a nearby hill and two ski stores that have been in business for years, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them cut corners or just not be formal with their process. These were integrated skis that they sold tons of the previous yeears, so I'm sure that it seemed fairly easy to the tech, but I'm still worried because of the origins of the bindings.

Maybe I'll pay 20$ to have them tested elsewhere. Is there a more elaborate test that they can do ?
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
I got my skis back from the on base shop today, like I said, they didn't have the jig and had the courtesy to let me know that instead of "winging it". I was happy that they were honest.

Just another part of the story though, last friday I rented skis from the same shop and the "kid" set up the rental bindings with the manager guiding him on how to do it. When I checked the settings at the front desk, one was set at 5 and the other at 6....So the supervisor never even checked the "kids" work. I told the kid that the din needs to be checked again, and he came back, didn't apologize and merely said "yeah, one was out a few clicks." I'm just glad I'm being forced to go to another shop now. But like a person mentions above, anyone could just get skis and not know anything about the setting and get seriously hurt because din is off.

So, there is an REI in Roseville, CA I'm going to bring my stuff to, hopefully they will have the right jig for base plates.
post #22 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny1969 View Post
When I was a backshop rat, ski work tags had the following pass/fail check areas:

Visual inspection of gear - the gear must meet some safety standards set by the industry

Function test - to see if the toes returned to center and heel unit latches in and releases

Torque test for the toe - the toe piece is supposed to release within a certain torque range

Torque test for the heel - the heel is supposed to release within a certain torque range

If all that was checked as "pass" and signed by the tech, then the work was done. Did you receive a copy of the work tag? If you didn't receive a copy, go back to the shop and get one.

By the way, integrated ski and binding setups can be mounted and tested in less than 15 minutes (some less than 10) by a competent ski tech.

Dennis
Thank you for the very useful information, I will have to remember to ask for a work tag where ever I go. It's the little things like this that many folks probably would never know with out a great place like this!
post #23 of 28
"A great place like this". It IS a great place. But the forum itself is less than half of the value.

When you show up for gatherings, you'll find people swapping bindings left and right. You suddenly realize there's none of those magic setting and test...

And you get to TALK to the people who work in shops. Since they're not writing something to be critisized, they're a lot more open to discuss what REALLY is important and what's just boarderline scar tactics. None of these things are rocket science. Just knowing what to do. But there's the culture of NOT telling what to do so it becomes a black magic that only shops can do in the back rooms.

I setup my own binding. It's an intergrated binding so no "mounting" (drilling) was required. On the other hand, a skilled home shop mechanics can definitely mount something accurately. Or at least they know what their accuracy margin is (as long as their ego doesn't get in the way, that is). So they can decide if they're qualified to DIY. For god's sake, I know some of us rebuild engines in our spare time! How much harder is setting up binding?
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by uricmu View Post
Maybe I'll pay 20$ to have them tested elsewhere. Is there a more elaborate test that they can do ?
The ski industry has its boot bindings tests standardized. They should be consistent from shop to shop. The only thing that might be different is how a shop will torque test. Most shops will used a torque wrench. A few shops will use a robotic torque tester. As long as the testing apparatus is calibrated on an annual basis, the results should be accurate.

Dennis
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post
"A great place like this". It IS a great place. But the forum itself is less than half of the value.

When you show up for gatherings, you'll find people swapping bindings left and right. You suddenly realize there's none of those magic setting and test...

And you get to TALK to the people who work in shops. Since they're not writing something to be critisized, they're a lot more open to discuss what REALLY is important and what's just boarderline scar tactics. None of these things are rocket science. Just knowing what to do. But there's the culture of NOT telling what to do so it becomes a black magic that only shops can do in the back rooms.

I setup my own binding. It's an intergrated binding so no "mounting" (drilling) was required. On the other hand, a skilled home shop mechanics can definitely mount something accurately. Or at least they know what their accuracy margin is (as long as their ego doesn't get in the way, that is). So they can decide if they're qualified to DIY. For god's sake, I know some of us rebuild engines in our spare time! How much harder is setting up binding?
I aggree. Its also interesting to note how it takes place with on-hill demos. In about 20 seconds, adjust binding to sole, set DIN, forward pressure, and off you go. No torque tests etc...

That's not to say having your bindings tested at the beginning of the season isnt something that shouldn't be done. It's just that adjusting a railflex or system binding isn't exactly rocket science.

Also, most shops charge the same money for mounting a railflx as they do a flat ski with drilling. Absurd.
post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmckimson View Post
Unless you have the appropriate mounting jigs from the binding manufacturer, mounting your own bindings is a very bad idea. I highly recommend that you have any and all binding mounted by a shop that carries your brand.
Mike
That is what I was thinking, as it takes a very seasoned pro to hand mount a pair of bindings correctly, let alone adjust them correctly. Having never worked in a ski shop to get trained on this, I happily pay my tech $40 and his favorite 6pack to do this correctly for me.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post

Also, most shops charge the same money for mounting a railflx as they do a flat ski with drilling. Absurd.
Yea, it's a moneymaker for them. Local shops here in Pittsburgh wanted to charge me $70 for mounting the integrated bindings on an Elan becasue it wasn't bought there. I ended up getting it for $40 elsewhere, which is still $20-30 too much. However, the stores stay open for a few months even after the season started even though I doubt anyone really buys anything (it's not in the resort) so they've got to make some money.

On the other hand, I pay my garage too much money to do the usual maintenance which I am sure could have been done for $10. That's life.
post #28 of 28
I pay too much for a lot of the work done on my car, my skis or my house (when I had one), because the time it takes me to figure out how AND to do it can be used for other more productive tasks.

But there's a difference between you and I NOT wanting (or not having the time) to do it, vs. people who has the time and the desire to learn to do something. Only to be told it's so highly specialized that no one other than a ski shop should attempt to do it!

I frankly never seen/heard that kind of talk in any other sport except in binding mounting on alpine skis! You want to true a wheel? There're instruction books on how (or just go on the net). You want to paint your house? There're books and online instruction you can follow. You want to build an atomic bomb? You can get the instruction online too! But you want to mount a binding? It's so difficult you should never attempt it!!!

There was a time when plumbing and electrical were consider such magical task also. But at least plumbers and electricien make good enough money to want to protect their livelihood. Why the mythical status of mounting a pair of integrated binding???
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