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# SL freeskiing - MA - Page 2

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 Rick, do you think that retraction turns are especially sensetive to rushing the initiation?
When you make retraction turns, you are un-weighting the skis almost entirely at the same moment that you are starting the new turn. With no pressure on the skis it takes very little rotary movement to get the skis to turn. What happens with many skiers is in retraction turns they don't adjust for this reduced pressure so the skis are pivoting quicker at the top of the turn. Then as the pressure increases in the skis the amount the skis pivot slows down due to the added resistance of pressure. Retraction turns require the skier to constantly adjust how much rotary movements they are applying throughout the turn so that the skis turn evenly.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by lagdawg Retraction turns require the skier to constantly adjust how much rotary movements they are applying throughout the turn so that the skis turn evenly.
OMG, we need Max 501!

(Sorry, lag if you aren't familiar)
Quote:
 Originally Posted by lagdawg When you make retraction turns, you are un-weighting the skis almost entirely at the same moment that you are starting the new turn. With no pressure on the skis it takes very little rotary movement to get the skis to turn. What happens with many skiers is in retraction turns they don't adjust for this reduced pressure so the skis are pivoting quicker at the top of the turn. Then as the pressure increases in the skis the amount the skis pivot slows down due to the added resistance of pressure. Retraction turns require the skier to constantly adjust how much rotary movements they are applying throughout the turn so that the skis turn evenly.
Interesting viewpoint. Are you saying that too much rotary at the top of the turn in unweighted state of being will pitot your skis into a skidd insted of just engaging the new edges for a carved turn?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 Interesting viewpoint. Are you saying that too much rotary at the top of the turn in unweighted state of being will pitot your skis into a skidd insted of just engaging the new edges for a carved turn?
That is pretty much exactly what I'm saying. Now imagine standing on skis on a flat area. Try to put all of your weight on one foot and try twisting that foot/ski. How much resistance does the ground/pressure provide. Now take almost all of that weight/pressure off the foot and try to twist the ski/foot. Is there more or less resistance now? So applying too much rotary at the beginning of the turn causes the skis to pivot into a skid. As you progress through the turn the pressure (and also resistance to twisting) between the ski and snow builds, which leads to the turn naturally becoming more rounded as the skis are pressured more and resist the twisting forces more.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by lagdawg When you make retraction turns, you are un-weighting the skis almost entirely at the same moment that you are starting the new turn. With no pressure on the skis it takes very little rotary movement to get the skis to turn. What happens with many skiers is in retraction turns they don't adjust for this reduced pressure so the skis are pivoting quicker at the top of the turn. Then as the pressure increases in the skis the amount the skis pivot slows down due to the added resistance of pressure. Retraction turns require the skier to constantly adjust how much rotary movements they are applying throughout the turn so that the skis turn evenly.
Why do we need to totally un-weight the skis in a retraction turn?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justanotherskipro Why do we need to totally un-weight the skis in a retraction turn?
We don't need to totally un-weight the skis in any kind of turn and I didn't mean to convey that point, I typed that up wrong. My description of excessive rotation can happen whenever we reduce the pressure between the skis and snow. Whenever we are skiing the pressure between our skis and snow is constantly changing. In almost all cases the period of the most pressure comes at the end of the turn and the period of least pressure occurs at the top of the turn. It doesn't matter whether this happens by retraction, up-unweighting, inside leg extension or any other means of initiating a turn, almost universally there is less pressure on the skis at the top of the turn. Understanding how your skis react to this changing pressure is very important in being able to dictate exactly how your skis are moving throughout the turn, no matter whether you are carving, skidding or some combination of the two.
True. Managing pressure is one of the fundamental skills. To make the pressure more constant would it require us to extend to add pressure early and flex to absorb some pressure late. Additionally allowing migration of the CoM towards the apex of the next turn would also involve flexing the legs, especially the outside leg. Which reduces some of the additional pressure developing as the result of the skis turning out of the fall line. Although that really isn't always the primary purpose of this type of flexing. It can also be to allow the path of the CoM to cross over the path of the skis. As this happens the effective edge angle is reduced and the edges of the skis dis-engage. It is this type of release move BW isn't showing us.
Lagdawg,

What you say is mechanically true: that excessive rotary (torque) input to the skis at the top of the turn will cause the skis to pivot instead of carving. So will excessive torque applied at Apex or turn Finish, 'excessive' being the operative term.

I think this is why we need well-trained Rotary Skills in our skiing - to manage the amount of torque we apply to our skis in order to retain control and obtain the desired effects we seek. It's true that in a lesser-unweighted / less-pressured state there is less friction to resist rotary displacement of the skis than in a higher pressured state and skiers need to manage torque applied to legs accordingly.

It's also true that for the average skier in an average turn their skis are less-pressured at the top of a turn than at the middle or end of a turn - but only because they allow this to happen. The Virtual Bump drives this and if we do nothing else, that's what we get. Still, there is another way.

For instance, we can try the following...

When finishing a turn we can unweight early - just prior to the skis going flat, and we can do so aggressively such that our whole body briefly starts to 'drop' downward as we pass through 'flat'. Just as our skis roll onto the new edges we can begin a semi-aggressive extension such that we are 'pushing' the skis downward into the snow rather than laterally across the snow. This augments the downward momentum we already got from allowing our body to succumb to Gravity a moment before.

This method takes pressure away from turn finish and enables us to apply it at turn entry to mitigate effects of the Virtual Bump.

Mechanically, we've taken away body support late in the old turn (eliminating pressure) and our entire body starts to accelerate downward, building up the downward component of our momentum (meaning straight downward, not down-slope). We can now use that downward momentum at turn entry to better engage the new edges at turn entry.

Another way of describing this might be to say we're 'jumping over' the top of the Virtual Bump. This is akin to 'pre-jumping' an upcoming rise in a race course to minimize air time.

.ma
Quote:
 Originally Posted by newfydog OMG, we need Max 501! (Sorry, lag if you aren't familiar)
This thread would not be 39 post long after this much time if Max 501 were around.

Bushwacker, some time I hope to ski with yah.
But if he were still gracing this forum with his presence, we'd probably have a response to tdk6's question below (which triggered the last 10 or so posts) and probably would return the focus to analyzing BWPA's video.

Quote:
 do you think that retraction turns are especially sensetive to rushing the initiation?
TDK6, in my personal experience retraction turns are actually less sensitive to rushing than other transitions because the skier isn't pressuring the ice/snow to effect the transition. Any time one suddenly actively applies pressure to ice, there's the potential for bad things to happen. The "float" gives the skier time to easily adjust balance and stance before applying pressure, more so than transitions that involve some form of extension. Biomechanically, it is easier to "roll onto the new edges" with precision when you're light, not load-bearing -- muscles are recruited for 1 task, not two. As an added bonus, the transition is identical whether you've caught some air before the transition or you're firmly on the surface. Because of the ease of pacing retractions transitions and their smooth, natural flow, I use them in most of my turns. (No doubt, this preference is not universal )

BWPA, you're a brave fellow to post your video publicly. I hope you benefit from the feedback by epic full certs. Best wishes for a fun and fulfilling season here on the east coast.
I'm still waiting for my White Pass video.

BWPA - are you signed up for the L3 skiing on Jan 19th?
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 Originally Posted by epic I'm still waiting for my White Pass video. BWPA - are you signed up for the L3 skiing on Jan 19th?
I am on the 11-12th but currently due to circumstances beyond my control still dont have place to work so there for I have SSD signature which I need by the 5th. So yeah still havent figured out to take a L3 exam with out actually working somewhere..... smuggs is a no go, they layed people off before I ever got there. If stowe wants to try again I would be glad to work there in fact Id be glad to work nearly anywhere in northern vermont IF they would hire me. If any SSD or anybody reading this could guarante me a job I would be there in a week. My only reason for want to work anywhere right now is someone wanting to hire me. I am to the point that I may just start showing up cold turkey next weekend to resorts asking for a job and to ski direcetly with either the director/hire director.

as for the whitepass turns just havent had the chance to film them yet. but I can do them. By doing them I mean I am able to transtion on just the new inside leg, put my outside leg down carve to the transtion and then transtion again on my new inside leg. I could be cheating and sometimes I do get caught back but I am able to throw my body forward and still 'complete' the task. I ll will try to get them on film for you eric.

as for the turns themselve I took ricks advice and slowed thing down alot all day sunday. I also worked on really getting my body to quit banking. This seemed to really make thing seems smoother on sunday.

Last night I was skiing and started to add retraction back into my skiing with the slower transition, painfully slow transition. the skis seemed to hook up better with less push/skid going. I really dont like the feeling though...its seemed much to dull and basically defanged my progressor to the point of no energy. I then sped up the transtion but still focusing on making sure I could feel every little bit happen but now just doing it as fast a possiable with feeling every bit of degree change. voile, the skis felt much better than they did a week ago, and I was now getting nearly SL sized turns with no skid, and what felt like a well time transtion.
COOL! Adding more umph after engaging the edges is where you will get back all of the energy and more. Almost like the apex is equivelent to bottoming out on a trampoline. A stronger move there will give you a stronger and more explosive response from the skis. The smooth transition in between these very dynamic control phases (middle third of each turn) are all about getting into the best position before pulling the trigger on the next explosive control phase. Meaning two thirds of the turns (the first and last thirds) are about transitioning and setting up for the next explosive control phase. Giving you plenty of time to progressively get where you want to be before pulling the trigger again. Master the slow line fast before moving on to fast line fast though. Learn to make the same old boring turn extremely well before trying to ramp it up into those explosive short radius turns you want.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justanotherskipro COOL! Adding more umph after engaging the edges is where you will get back all of the energy and more. Almost like the apex is equivelent to bottoming out on a trampoline. A stronger move there will give you a stronger and more explosive response from the skis. The smooth transition in between these very dynamic control phases (middle third of each turn) are all about getting into the best position before pulling the trigger on the next explosive control phase. Meaning two thirds of the turns (the first and last thirds) are about transitioning and setting up for the next explosive control phase. Giving you plenty of time to progressively get where you want to be before pulling the trigger again. Master the slow line fast before moving on to fast line fast though. Learn to make the same old boring turn extremely well before trying to ramp it up into those explosive short radius turns you want.
Oh boy, I like that.
Hitting a good neutral sets us up for the best position for pumping the trampoline so to speak.
I'm reading all this looking for some good advice and inputs and I'm thinking, how much can any skier assimilate and execute regarding changing a movement pattern. I don't know about you guys, but when I ski bumps things are happening very quickly. I will make an analogy to golf and it took me forever to appreciate this. You have to keep instruction less entailed and not burdensome. Standing on the tee and having 10 things running trough my head, never helped me relax , execute, and hit my best shot. BWPA has a lot of athleticism and is a powerful skier. I'm wondering if he wouldn't be better served focusing on 1 maybe 2 things and incorporating that into his skiing. My best bump tip last year came from my buddy who told me to get my feet into the void below me (backside of the bump) and feel like I was filling that space below me. For me it kept me from rotating, staying more square to the fall line and kept me out of the back seat. Don't get me wrong, I respect those of you that can break it down in detail isolate things and pinpoint what needs to be going on. But I believe to continue to improve, the movement patterns that lead to the desired end result have to be a little less entailed and simplified . Just my \$.02.
RT, That's why making changes with the help of a good coach makes so much sense. Finding a way to package the change in an easy to digest and assimilate way is our job.
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