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Newbie Ski Sharpening Question

post #1 of 15
12/14/08 at 1:33pm
Thread Starter 
About a year ago, I purchase the following items (excuse the low-res photo, as it's coming from my phone):



The problem is, I have absolutely no idea how to use these items. I also don't know if this is enough stuff to sharpen.

To sum it up, I have the following:
1) Multi Tuner Model MT701
2) File insert for MT701
3) Blue diamond stone insert for MT701
4) Grey gummy stone

Now at the beginning of every season, I take my skis into the shop for their yearly tune. They take care of the stone grind, initial sharpening, and base repair.

I'm skiing a lot more this season and ideally I would like to be able to tune my own skis so I don't have to pay $20+ for a wax/sharpen from the shop. Now the wax part I have down as I've done it many times before and it's very simple. As for the sharpening, this is where I need advice. Keep in mind that I still intend to take my skis to the shop at the beginning of every season. It would be great if I only have to do it once every season.

1) How do I use this tool? Is there a video or pictorial tutorial online?
2) The tool can go from 0 to 5 degrees in half increments. How do I know what angle to use?
3) I've heard that most recreational skiers only tune the sides and let the shop take care of the base once per season. Is this true?
4) Do I have enough "stuff". If not, what else do I need?
5) Is this tuner decent or a pos?

I know that people from ski tune shops monitor and answer questions in these threads. If you are affiliated with a shop, let me know. Whomever provides me with the best information that allows me to do my own tunes, I will promise to buy all my supplies from them (wax, files, stones, etc.). If you're really good, you will probably get a customer for life.

Thanks in advance!
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post #2 of 15
12/14/08 at 2:07pm
1) http://www.skituning101.com/ is a good start
2) most people would say 2 to 3 degrees for side edges
3) most skiers don't sharpen skis ever... but this is a decent strategy
4) a good start
5) it's fine, a good starting point at least
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post #3 of 15
12/14/08 at 2:08pm
It is a decent start to tuning the edges of your skis. As you do it more often you will probably want a dedicated angle guide for your side edges but this is a good start.

On the orange guide you can position the file or diamond stone in either horizontally or a vertically. The horizontal is for base edge sharpening, rarely used. The vertical position is for side edge sharpening most commonly used.
The most common angles are a 1 degree base bevel and either a 2 or 3 degree side edge.

When using the file be sure that you have it inserted the correct way. You want to file from tip to tail. If you run your finger over the file it should feel rough you want to pull the file in that direction. You don't need to apply a lot of pressure. After filing you can use the diamond stone to polish the edges. You are going to want some polishing solution to wet the stone before polishing the edge.

There s a thread on this website that has photos of the ski tuning process.
Also Dr. D has tuning instruction on his website. www.racewax.com
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post #4 of 15
12/14/08 at 5:54pm
If you take your skis in at the beginning of the season for a tune, ask them what the angles they have used. Base is many times 1 or 1/2 (.5) if they are Slalom skis. This does depend on the brand- each has factory settings that the ski started it's life. It could be different now, due to the shop tunes.

Side is many times 2 or 3 degrees.

About the tool- there are 2 ways to mount the cutting tool- one works to do the base, the other the side. I would only start with the diamond tool - especially on the base- since they are set and the diamond will usually only polish and take out burrs etc. It is common to end up running over something like a stone and end up with a hardened spot and the diamond will handle this the best. To do the base polishing: You insert the diamond in the slot so it is parallel to the wide part of the guide. The edges are done with the cutting tool inserted to the shorter slot so that the cutting is perpendicular to the part that rides along the base. You turn the dial to the setting needed for your skis.

If the skis edges become dull, running your finger nail along the edge at an angle to see if it shaves a thin layer off, then you can try and use the file to sharpen the edge again.

Read through some of the threads on general tuning. Also here is a link to the manufacturer's tips that has a few drawings on it to help:

http://www.fktools-us.com/ToolTips.asp

Also a word of warning there are some that do not like the "multi" tools - for a few reasons. One is that it may not be as accurate as dedicated side edge and base angle tools. Also it is made of plastic and can wear more and become uneven faster than a metal guide.
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post #5 of 15
12/14/08 at 6:09pm

Starting to Sharpen dee edges

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltat View Post
About a year ago, I purchase the following items (excuse the low-res photo, as it's coming from my phone):



The problem is, I have absolutely no idea how to use these items. I also don't know if this is enough stuff to sharpen.

To sum it up, I have the following:
1) Multi Tuner Model MT701
2) File insert for MT701
3) Blue diamond stone insert for MT701
4) Grey gummy stone

Now at the beginning of every season, I take my skis into the shop for their yearly tune. They take care of the stone grind, initial sharpening, and base repair.

I'm skiing a lot more this season and ideally I would like to be able to tune my own skis so I don't have to pay $20+ for a wax/sharpen from the shop. Now the wax part I have down as I've done it many times before and it's very simple. As for the sharpening, this is where I need advice. Keep in mind that I still intend to take my skis to the shop at the beginning of every season. It would be great if I only have to do it once every season.

1) How do I use this tool? Is there a video or pictorial tutorial online?
2) The tool can go from 0 to 5 degrees in half increments. How do I know what angle to use?
3) I've heard that most recreational skiers only tune the sides and let the shop take care of the base once per season. Is this true?
4) Do I have enough "stuff". If not, what else do I need?
5) Is this tuner decent or a pos?

I know that people from ski tune shops monitor and answer questions in these threads. If you are affiliated with a shop, let me know. Whomever provides me with the best information that allows me to do my own tunes, I will promise to buy all my supplies from them (wax, files, stones, etc.). If you're really good, you will probably get a customer for life.

Thanks in advance!
Read the posts referenced and go to Search and find more. First, 1 degree base is right for almost all ski's. 3 degree side for racing, skiing ice and hardpack kor if you just like a real responsive ski that you can "hook up" when you want. 2 degrees if you ski on better snow or don't like the "hook up" feel.

Do lst with the file inserted into the tool. I have the same tool and it did come with instructions, if you have lost them PM me and I will send you a copy leave address or fax #. Feel your edges, any burrs or slices being felt? Use tool Tip to Tail make two passes, firm but not hard. Feel edges, burrs gone? Put in Diamond stone and do the same, feel edges again. Don't overdue it, doesn't take much to properly put the right bevel/edge on the skis. Gummy stone can be used to detune the tips and/or tails if you want to. Depends on your taste and the skis etc.
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post #6 of 15
12/14/08 at 6:46pm
I sell this product and have detailed edge tuning info here:
http://www.racewax.com/category/tuning_tips.edge_tuning

and tuning in a nutshell tips here:
http://www.racewax.com/category/tuni...k_tuning_guide

This was originally sold with an instructional pamphlet and I have a few left. Send me your mailing address and I will send you one.
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post #7 of 15
12/16/08 at 2:47pm
Your multi-tuner does both base edges and side edges.

For the base edge, put the diamond in, darken part of the base edge with a black felt tip pen, and fiddle with the angle setting until the diamond removes the black ink across the width of the edge. You don't want to remove any metal, just the ink all the way across. Now, with the diamond, use the gizmo on the full length to remove any burr pushed up by a rock. You do not want to remove any metal except a burr. Record the setting. Do not trust that 2° from the shop is the same as the 2° marking on your gizmo, nor that either is actually 2°, and it likely doesn't matter as long as you find and match the angle.

Do the same on the sides to find the angle. Record the setting. Mark the full length of the edge with the marker. With the diamond, and a light touch, grind off any rock burrs--some are work hardened and will dull the file. A heavy touch knocks out the diamond bits, and you get to buy a new diamond file. Next, use the file stroking only the way the teeth bite and remove enough metal so the ink is gone. Test the sharpness of the edge with your finger tip or scrape a bit off the back of your thumbnail. When sharp, put the diamond back in and stroke lightly to give a finer cut. Stroke from tip to tail. Do the bottom again very lightly in case any steel was raised. Use the gummi stone lightly for the full length of the edges, both bottoms and sides, to get a really smooth surface. Wax. Go skiing.

When you get totally frustrated trying to hold the ski and work on it, buy a ski vise from Alpinord or Dr. D.
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post #8 of 15
12/17/08 at 11:14am
SoftSnowGuy - regarding your write up - you say to use the diamond stone first - then the file - then the diamond again? I always thought that you were supposed to use the file or a pocket stone to knock down the burs and then touch things up with the diamond?

Thanks!
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post #9 of 15
12/17/08 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by abekaufman View Post
SoftSnowGuy - regarding your write up - you say to use the diamond stone first - then the file - then the diamond again? I always thought that you were supposed to use the file or a pocket stone to knock down the burs and then touch things up with the diamond?

Thanks!
coarse, cheap diamond first. In that context, a DMT black or well-used blue.
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post #10 of 15
12/17/08 at 12:18pm
Thanks for the advice... I think I might be investing in a black diamond stone to add to my collection!
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post #11 of 15
12/17/08 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by abekaufman View Post
SoftSnowGuy - regarding your write up - you say to use the diamond stone first - then the file - then the diamond again? I always thought that you were supposed to use the file or a pocket stone to knock down the burs and then touch things up with the diamond?

Thanks!
I think he is adding the "how to figure your own side and base bevel trick to the discussion". He is recommending the diamond to start with the fiddling with the tool to see at what setting does the diamond stone as you do not want to cut any material- just remove the darkened marker off the edge evenly. If the shop personnel that works on them does not know or does not record this, then you will have to determine the angles first. He also is stating to match the actual angle and not to assume that the tool's 2 degrees would match the shop's if they claim the tune was done at 2 degrees with their equipment. Also this can compensate if you do it over time for the wear of the plastic and changes in degree that could be experienced over a metal tool that may only have a slight wear on the finish if any over longer use.

Then deburr any hot spots- as the file will not cut until these are removed. They are hardened and best to be taken care of with a diamond or some sort of stone before filing to sharpen.
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post #12 of 15
12/18/08 at 8:56pm
Quote:
Work hardening, strain hardening, or cold work is the strengthening of a material by, macroscopically speaking, plastic deformation (which has the nano-scopic effect of increasing the material's dislocation density). As the material becomes increasingly saturated with new dislocations, more dislocations are prevented from nucleating (a resistance to dislocation-formation develops). This resistance to dislocation-formation manifests itself as a resistance to plastic deformation; hence, the observed strengthening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening

In some cases, the burr raised by hitting a rock work hardens that part of the steel edge so much that it can dull a chrome file. A diamond file or stone will remove the raised, hard burr, then the file can do its job. This doesn't happen every time, but if there are raised burrs in the steel edge, I'd always remove the high spots with a diamond or stone, then file as needed. After that, go back with the medium or fine diamond or fine stone to smooth out the irregularities left by the file.
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post #13 of 15
12/19/08 at 4:45am
What coarseness of diamond stone would you use to remove the burr?
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post #14 of 15
12/19/08 at 4:55am
I would use a black diamond stone, I don't know the grit off the top of my head, maybe 150 grit.
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post #15 of 15
12/19/08 at 7:03am
If you arefering to a black Moonflex diamon stone, it is 100 grit.

In the interest of prolonging the life of your diamonds, an economical aluminum oxide utility stone (220 grit) is an option for knocking down burrs and case/work hardened edge sections.

Thanks for the reference link, SoftSnowGuy.
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