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OK into turn - Now What ?

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Reading and following the threads on Rebound, Inside the Arc etc. Have a question.


The turn is to the Left, inside L leg has released/relaxed, it has been drawn up (but not off the snow), a really nice Med to Large radius turn is now in progress and IS past initiation and is drawing me across the hill. A good speed is attained, not too slow but not too fast either, just right. It is time for the right turn.

NOW WHAT?

Prior to Epic (PTE) (You guys) I would make an up motion with pressure on the new outside ski L, switching edges and ski off into oblivion.

This was PTE and now seems wrong so my question is I am carving across the hill to my L. What do I do to start the R turn. Picturing my self like all the awesome skiers in Ski Porn maing a nice turn L knee up almost chest high or highers, straight R leg, carving like Tyrone and Now What?

Thanks!
post #2 of 20
Release/relax R leg? (The opposite of what you did to go left)
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 

what next

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Release/relax R leg? (The opposite of what you did to go left)
OK, (could it be that simple) so in that position-L leg bent a little or a lot (depending on hill, steep, speed etc.) R leg pretty straight etc. Relax R leg, up a little etc., transition edges for the new turn to the right. No up, just roll em over? Have I got it?
post #4 of 20
I always found when I am in good rythym and form, the pole plant usually takes care of the required movrments neccesary to initiate. If I try to think about it, I always end up trying to do too much.

I relax the ankles, let the skis release from the edges, all the while thrusting the pole out forward and downhill. It just seems like everything falls into place and the feet and lower legs 'know' what to do from there. I also keep the upper body pointed down the fall line and this will unwind the legs on the pole plant and they will seek the fall line.

Kind of like learning to drive a stick, for me it becomes second-nature and automatic. I don't even think about it --it just happens. For me its about staying relaxed, as if I am too rigid or the lower legs are tensed and I am thinking about things, thats when things go helter skelter.

I am sure some of the pros will have a better way of explaining technique. I never really think about it much unless I am doing drills or taking a clinic or lesson.

I have also found one-footed drills help a lot in making things automatic. I always spend a few minutes on the bunny hill each time I ski to get my balance in check. I ski on one foot, turining slowly left and right trying to use only edging and no rotary.
post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 

what now

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Release/relax R leg? (The opposite of what you did to go left)
Thanks, now that I think of it that may have been a stupid question. Brain lock I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post
I always found when I am in good rythym and form, the pole plant usually takes care of the required movrments neccesary to initiate. If I try to think about it, I always end up trying to do too much.

I relax the ankles, let the skis release from the edges, all the while thrusting the pole out forward and downhill. It just seems like everything falls into place and the feet and lower legs 'know' what to do from there. I also keep the upper body pointed down the fall line and this will unwind the legs on the pole plant and they will seek the fall line.

Kind of like learning to drive a stick, for me it becomes second-nature and automatic. I don't even think about it --it just happens. For me its about staying relaxed, as if I am too rigid or the lower legs are tensed and I am thinking about things, thats when things go helter skelter.

I am sure some of the pros will have a better way of explaining technique. I never really think about it much unless I am doing drills or taking a clinic or lesson.

I have also found one-footed drills help a lot in making things automatic. I always spend a few minutes on the bunny hill each time I ski to get my balance in check. I ski on one foot, turining slowly left and right trying to use only edging and no rotary.
Yes, thats pretty much the way I ski too. Just trying to go from old guy technique to new stuff. Thanks.
post #6 of 20
Yes, while we are waiting for the people who know what they are talking about to chime in (no slight o Mojo who posted while I was composing and may or may not be among those we are waiting for, I haven't read his post yet.) it could be simple like that. Releasing/retracting your outside leg = outside leg retraction (OLR), or extend your inside leg (ILE) are the currently preferred methods of changing direction. OLR yields a snappy "cross under" transition, while ILE results in more efficient, slower "cross over" transition.

It's funny, years ago when I was concentrated on the turns, I challenged the predominate use of uphill/downhill ski to describe ski technique, claiming inside/outside ski was a more useful distinction. Now we are focusing more on the transition, uphill/downhill maybe equal or more useful terms to use. Now that I think of it, this shift dates to the debut of shaped skis and Harold Harb's crazy advice to tip your downhill ski onto it's little toe edge, which made sense but also sounded a little crazy then but is accepted as gospel now.
post #7 of 20
Pete No. Idaho what you do next is entirely driven by your intentions. Intent drives technique so what is the intent you have in mind on your turns?
post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 

now what

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Pete No. Idaho what you do next is entirely driven by your intentions. Intent drives technique so what is the intent you have in mind on your turns?
Intent. I have made the L turn and want to make a connecting R turn. (Assume wide groomed run at moderately fast speeds). If I have made the L turn properly and I am - left knee sorta up, right leg almost or all the way straight. Is it as simple as relaxing the R leg and go to transition, i.e. R little toe, L big toe while center balanced.

I am an old UP guy to transition and would like to eliminate this move that is ingrained in my skiing. Watching some of guys here and in Ski Porn sometimes I think I see an up movement but then maybe not.
post #9 of 20
Now--riding the right big toe edge (BTE)
Next--pole tap...don't move anything more than your wrist so you don't disturb your body position that is holding your ski grip, and never bring the pole forward past the fall line.
--relax your right leg so you're riding the left little toe edge (LTE)--actually pull your knee up toward your chest for quicker transitions
--pull both feet behind you to put pressure on the ski tips as needed
--tip your right ski to its LTE with ankle effort, tip more, and continue to tip more and more and more
--allow your right knee to move way out toward the snow
--allow your hips to cross, way across, your skis very early in the new turn
--continue the effort to tip the right ski more with the effort coming from the ankle with the knee and hip following. Pull the inside foot back continuously to keep your weight forward as needed.
--you're now riding the left BTE, and your body has crossed the skis between the ski tips and your pole
--let the body come inside to lengthen the outside leg, don't push it out
--angulate at the hips as needed for balance enough so your shoulders about equal the slope of the hill
--counter by turning the hips and shoulders toward the outside ski...counter very early and hold it all the way to the next release. This improves ski tail grip and brings the frontal abs into use
--inside arm high & forward, outside arm low and back, hips & shoulders countered, upper body angulated, ankle/knee/hips tipping more and more to handle the increased forces toward the bottom of the turn

Pole tap, relax the outside leg, and do it all again to turn the other way.

I know, some of these movements aren't dogma. I can explain the reason for each movement--PM me and I'll come back to this thread with the explanation relating to the ski's interaction with the snow.

For a drill to get away from the old up-extension, try this...comfortable S turns, easy slope--
--during the belly of the S's, hold the outside hand on the top of the outside boot cuff or let it slide up to the knee...outside leg straight, inside leg bent & ski light on the snow, upper body tilted to the outside
--touch both boots with your hands just before you transition to the next turn and hold it through the transition so the knees are deeply bent for the turn transition
--touch just the outside boot or knee for the next S turn

Another drill--
--Hold both poles in contact with the snow at all times during S turns, arms extended out to the sides. Be very aware of lifting either pole off the snow. If needed, hold the poles on the shaft below the grip. (This is not the swordfighter grasp, this is the ordinary pole grasp.)
post #10 of 20
To promote flow between relatively large turns, you want the relaxing of the right leg you lengthened as part of the left turn to begin before you are quite through with riding the left edges. It's an ongoing process that includes allowing your center of mass to begin moving toward the new turn so that you are standing over your skis more or less perpendicular to the surface they're on when you go from engaging two left edges to engaging four before going to the other two.

I like the tip of the pole you'll touch for the next turn to be swinging toward where it'll touch while you're still in the current turn. If your hands are properly forward, a little flick of the wrist just as you reach the "four" part of two edges, four edges, two edges, will make the pole touch occur at the moment you transition to the new edges.
post #11 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post
I also keep the upper body pointed down the fall line and this will unwind the legs on the pole plant and they will seek the fall line.
I think that we need to be specific in how much counter we recommend since it depends on the radius of the turn. When Pete No. Idaho described "a really nice Med to Large radius turn is now in progress" it would be preferable to point the body more in the direction of the line of travel of the skis with minimal counter. Many students come to a lesson thinking that they should always be facing down the hill based on previous advice.
The advice to point the body down the fall line is certainly appropriate in short radius turns but the distinction should be made to avoid a generalization of this stance being always applicable.
post #12 of 20
Thread Starter 

Now What

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
To promote flow between relatively large turns, you want the relaxing of the right leg you lengthened as part of the left turn to begin before you are quite through with riding the left edges. It's an ongoing process that includes allowing your center of mass to begin moving toward the new turn so that you are standing over your skis more or less perpendicular to the surface they're on when you go from engaging two left edges to engaging four before going to the other two.

I like the tip of the pole you'll touch for the next turn to be swinging toward where it'll touch while you're still in the current turn. If your hands are properly forward, a little flick of the wrist just as you reach the "four" part of two edges, four edges, two edges, will make the pole touch occur at the moment you transition to the new edges.
Kneale, OK sounds good. But what is 4 edges are you saying when the ski is flat for that split sec. or am I misunderstanding?
If I am understanding you are saying this wrist flict at the transition when the sk's are between / transition. Thanks. Pete
post #13 of 20
Pete, don't fret. This is not old school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTboYL8CjaU&NR=1

It's simply a single class within a complete school. Old school is extension off the downhill (old outside leg), exaggerated enough to cause unweighting to facilitate pivoting. Getting longer in the uphill (old inside) leg before edge angle neutral is a functional option for arc to arc skiing. It's why the guys in that vid are doing it.

Retracted transitions are very useful in certain situations, and should be learned. But not as a replacement of other options,,, only as a way of adding to those options.
post #14 of 20
Pete . He's saying he would like to be moving into the next turn while you are still finishing the turn currently underway . The beginning of the pole plant needs to be begun before transition.
If you waited to move inside the turn by transition you'll be too late , the tails will not hold as easily because of late or sudden edge engagement.
I think this is the toughest part of learning to turn . The timing of the pole plant while getting yourself moving into the next turn.
s
Would anyone like to share drills , cues or some wisdom on teaching this concept ?
post #15 of 20
Thread Starter 

Now What

Rick, initially in watching the video I see up motion, however after watching repetively am I seeing Extension that looks like up motion?

Garry and Rick and others. So a key is starting the next turn before finishing the present turn. As described by several of you with a pole touch keying the transition? That was a question. I am sorry but I am not a real technical guy and never have been so I have a lot of trouble relating some of this.

The picture/visual I have is 1)while in the turn 2)start the next turn by going flat/relaxing maybe with an up motion the outside leg which will now become the inside. At this point in time, pole touch downhill with COM down the hill and in the direction I want to go. If this is correct I think I understand.

Now I know why I was always late in the Gates - I always waited until I finish he turn I was in - ugh.

Am I getting it? Thanks everyone. I never thought I could learn on a word site but I am.
post #16 of 20
Pete, yes, you see the center of mass rise. That will happen even with zero extension in the uphill (old inside) leg prior to edge angle neutral, as the body pendulums back over the feet. It has no choice but to rise. With any pre neutral extension in the old inside (uphill) leg, the rise will be accentuated. It's not enough to cause a disconnect from the snow, and a disconnect is not intended, as it was in the old school up move off the downhill (old outside) leg. Totally different transition.

Some people see any rise that happens during the transition as wrong, and don't realize there's a difference between the two. Such misconceptions can cause people to throw out the baby with the bath.

If you want to understand how new school extension is done, why it works, and where to use it, check out this link;
http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiC...Extension.html

If you're going for more of a retracted transition, you eliminate the uphill leg extension, and suck your legs up into your chest as your body crosses over your skis and into the new turn. A simple relaxation of the downhill (old outside) leg will set your body in motion across your skis. Keep your body low as the skis/feet cross under your body.

Retraction can facilitate a very quick transition between turns. The sensation is of the skis rocketing across beneath you, from one side of the body to the other, accompanied by a moment of lightness and disconnection with the snow people call "float". It's a transition often used when pivoting. The deep flexion in the knees as you go through neutral puts you in an aft balance state. A pivot auto rectifies aft. Without a pivot, fore balance is not reestablished immediately upon leaving edge angle neutral. It's comes later on, once the new outside leg has become more extended, later in the engagement/initiation cycle. If you've heard the advice to pull the feet back in this transition description, this is why. It's an attempt to quickly correct for the hips trailing feet position you go through edge angle neutral in.

There's a reason you see a lot of ILE being used in arc to arc skiing on the World Cup. These guys have to be forward early in the turn, and extending the old inside knee before rolling the skis into the new turn helps make that happen.
post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 

Now What

Everybody, thankyou I think it is getting through the grey matter. Now have to go do it. Looking forward to trying something new. It is sort of interesting to finally realize why I was late so many times when racing. Too bad I didn't learn this about 10 NO 20 yrs ago.

Lots of info Rick, thanks. How does this sound for a plan. too much information will really do me in. If I work on: relaxing the to be inside leg, going neutral, to new edges and then start the next turn in the the same way but before I finish the turn I am in, with the pole touch COM across and down the hill in the direction I want to go.

Actually for me that is a lot to work on. Looking forward to recognizing the FEEL of this turn/technique. Thanks. Pete
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
Kneale, OK sounds good. But what is 4 edges are you saying when the ski is flat for that split sec. or am I misunderstanding?
If I am understanding you are saying this wrist flict at the transition when the sk's are between / transition. Thanks. Pete
Four edges=skis flat on surface. It's not a position you spend a lot of time in usually. It's something you pass through.

I was saying you and your pole tip should be moving into position for the next turn during the finishing phase of your last one if you want to flow down the hill. Otherwise you have a bunch of sequential activities.
post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 

Now What

Thankyou Everybody! I will be out trying this as soon as I can. Now that you have conjured this up in my mind, I actually have felt this committment, flow etc. just didn't know why I felt it. Now to develope feeling it more often.

I will report back in a few weeks and let you know if I was able to develope and duplicate this movement. Thanks Again.
post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 

Now What

OK, went out for the lst time this year, yesterday. Snow was great. After getting acclamated a little I tried the above and really can even say if I did it right or whatever. First day was probably not the right time to try. Will keep working on this turn.

One thing I did notice. In another thread there was talk/ref. about keeping your skis/front on the snow when cresting a mogul and going over and down the other side. Tried that yesterday and it worked really well. Oh rememer, it was the "ripping skiing thread" about a month ago.
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