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Steering, Yes or No.

post #1 of 50
Thread Starter 
My thoughts are Steering will be a natural process due to the mechanics of getting your feet going across the hill and your body/CM moving down and often a little bit of rotation from the slight counter position we all have learned.
Active steering (twisting) with the feet at the beginning of the turn seems to cause skidding or windshield wiper turns. (not good). So, no steering to initiate a turn, Good.

Active steering during the turn to adjust radius of the turn is good and can be used.
Helps the ski make the desired turn otherwise all turns would endup pretty close to the turn radius of the ski.
post #2 of 50
SCSA quotes are from the "Stance, narrow or wide" thread. Posted 5/22, page 2, 9:34am

SCSA: All you're doing is yelling louder.

No yelling in this end. I'm quite calm, in fact.

SCSA: Don't tell me that just because I don't have 300 years of experience, I can't debate with you.

You are more than welcome, and encouraged to debate (I have asked you to present your arguments, no?). However, a debate consists of backing up your claims. You have yet to do that.

SCSA: I started a high technology business with barely a ninth grade education and zero knowledge of the high tech industry. 10 years later, my company is doing very well. I taught myself C++ in 1 year and produced 10,000 lines of very complex telephony code. My brother is considered to be one of the very best marketing gurus in the country - he didn't go to college. So just because I don't have the experience you do doesn't mean a thing to me. I have a brain. If that's what your premise is, then please tell me. Because I don't want to debate with you.

I don't give the south end of a north bound rat about your computer expertise. I'll go way out on a limb here and claim that understanding computers is about as distant from understanding athletic movement, as The Rockies are from Neptune.

SCSA: I believe I've presented some very good stuff, which you just ignore. This isn't about selling a system. All I'm here to do is debate - logically and professionally. I think there's a lot of skiers out there who can benefit from these debates if that's the format we adhere to. No one wants to read you calling me names or telling me that I have no business here. If you don't want to do the same, fine.

There is no logic or professionalism to your debate. I have not ignored a single thing you've said (which, BTW, has been a real PITA). I've provided logical arguments with reason and understanding of the concepts involved. What I find odd, is that my post that started this, you agreed to, quite vocally. Then you go and say it is a PMTS hallmark, and that it is the problem with PSIA. I hate to explain this to you, but I learned all this, and teach this in a PSIA format. I find that an interesting way to debate.

SCSA: The sources I site do have just as much experience as you. They're doctors, former PSIA examiners, and World Cup racers. If you don't recognize them as being credible, fine. Then all we have left to do is call each other names and I'm not going to do that.

Yeah, you site a lot of "sources". Hey, we can all find sources that say what we want to hear. That's why I want you to back up your arguments with your own logic and reasoning. I know lots of doctors who have never skied a day in their lives. And while the Steadman-Hawkins clinic may be the premier Knee clinic in the world, I hardly think thier research has to do with movement analysis of turn initiation. If it does, post some of their research, and not a claim that you have surmised, heard, or read (especially in HH's books). Notice that I do NOT quote "sources" when I present my arguments. I present arguments based on personal experience and understanding.

So, I'll repeat Pierre's question from the other thread: Please tell me why a narrow stance will not work with ATS, I am unaware of any reason why it will not, In other words, tell me WHAT PSIA says about this.

And I will add to that; Why do you think steering is bad?

And please use your own words and insights. Or at the very least, present an argument with logic and reason, not "because XXX said so".

**Due to the power shortage, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off indefinitely.

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[This message has been edited by JohnH (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #3 of 50
Doesn't steering do different things to the ski depending on edge angle? If the skis are flat, steering will rotate them in a plane parallelt to the snow surface, thus turning them, and causing some skidding. This seems the novice's (translate "my") way of initiating a turn.

But when the stance ski is on edge to any significant degree, it seems that the same steering movement in the leg will increase the pressure on the ski tip. Basically, your boot is attached to the ski, not to the snow, so it rotates the ski, the effect of which depends on the edging angle.

I don't have a clue whether good skiiers actually use this kind of rotary leg movement to pressure the tip, but i wonder. It would be very different from pushing on the ball of the foot, or the front of the boot cuff. That would pressure the tip by forcing the ski down, perpendicular to its base, further into the snow. Rotating would force the inside edge harder into the snow, at 90 degrees to the movement gotten by pressuring the ball of the foot. I haven't a clue what the final effect of that would be.

Of course, I could be totally full of it too.
post #4 of 50

A good... no, GREAT observation. Yes, steering can control the fore/aft pressure of the ski, and therefore, control the way the ski interacts with the snow.

The final effect would be to shorten the radius of the turn if the ski is steered, while allowing the ski to maintain a carve.

If a flat ski is steered, at the extreme, you can spin flat 360s on the hill. Even in a pure beginner, some edging is used, and if they are taught to steer the tip of the ski, then they will make a nice turn. However, if they rotate the heel out, rather then the toe in, they will move away from the turn and skid much more. The reason, is that to move the heel out, you need to push off of the inside ski, moving the body's mass away from the turn. But to steer the toe in, you need to pressure the stance ski, which will also keep the ski's edge in firm contact with the snow.

I love it! A real, logical understanding of movement and how it applies to skiing from someone with less experience than most of the people here. Well done!
post #5 of 50

Amazing photo sequences from RonL. I love the one of Lasse. Check out how late he is for the blue gate, and how he is back on line at the red one. Also, in the one shot of him right next to the red gate, check out how much he is bending that ski!!
post #6 of 50

I don't think he deleted any posts. My quotes of him come from the "stance" thread. His post was at 9:34am this morning.
post #7 of 50
Bob, just so we avoid ridiculous arguments with people now not here, what's your visual evidence of steering? In the Lasse Kjus sequence is it that the skis are at a different angle from the 4th image to the 5th? (counting from top of photo)

here's the link again: http://www.ronlemaster.com/giantSlalom.htm
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[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #8 of 50
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the clarification BobB
I was just trying to get a dialog started. Yes I know your defination. You just put it in print so much better.

I wonder how PMTS deals with steering on inline skates. I'll have to check that out.
post #9 of 50
Thread Starter 
from his web page. (by the way he suggests printing this info to take with you. I'll paraphrase and just give the jist of the info. You can look it up yourself)

...inline skates don't really skid. Avoid steering. It leads to trouble!!

That's scary. I can't get my skates to turn at all without some gentle steering. I would be going real fast straight or falling over on my side if I just try to tip.
post #10 of 50
As Bob said, steering is the "active control of the direction in which the skis point". The subtle action of steering is what in-line skating absolutely needs, not the harsh change in direction that sometimes is necessary in skiing. In that sense the HH statement about "avoiding steering" is not clear enough.

Obviously PMTS is against the harsh direction changes that beginners and intermediates adopt in order to initiate a turn. PMTS wants you to use the shape of the ski (and patience) to turn, and they want you to ride on one foot to make it easier for the average skier. But I cannot imagine why PMTS would be against subtle, gentle steering (the type used in turning in-line skates) to control turn radius AFTER turn initiation. It does not create skidding and it does not require a lot of muscle action.

Paul, if you are going to explain why PMTS is against steering, please concentrate on the gentle, subtle, smooth steering action after turn initiation. Everyone already agrees that unless circumstances absolutely require it, harsh directional changes (especially when the upper body gets involved) are not the way to initiate and complete turns.
post #11 of 50
Nice one, ScientistBill...

Your Physics is Phun button is showing!

I really appreciate the PMTS focus on NOT steering, but steering, indeed, does happen.

I remember when shape skis first came out, and all the hootenany about passive vs. active steering. Imagine that.

I think it was BobBarnes, that discussed the fact that most of the population (sigh, those forever fives) do indeed do bad rotary moves. And it's not taught (hopefully) but is a very instinctive, gross, and defensive move. PMTS helps these folks dramatically.

Been playing on my skates a little, and the "phantom move" works quite well. Done with a strong, quick tipping movement, and the turn is quite strong... interesting, no?

Then I said the hell with it, and started doing big fast skiting style cross overs... not a ski move at all...

Home safe, no skinned knees, or worse!

Geez, gotta ski different "ways"...
PSIA-way, and My-way. Now PMTS-way ;D

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #12 of 50
Thread Starter 
I was kind of splitting hairs a bit. I know that some steering happens just due to body mechanics and the body's natural tendancy to try to stay in balance. I think it's a perception that HH is advocating no steering but I think it would be more understandable to say "try not t force the steering and allow whatever "natural" steering that happens help guide the skis" or something like that.
post #13 of 50
I don't read that sentence by Harb as saying that the uphill ski won't be edged. I read him as saying that if you don't "try" to edge it, just allow your weight to fall down the hill by lifting the downhill ski, that the uphill ski will naturally edge, and hence turn. I think he's trying to get a skier to "fool" himself into letting the new stance ski turn by itself, on edge, without actively trying to edge or steer it. It would be very hard to have your weight start falling downhill and keep that uphill ski flat.
post #14 of 50
SciBill, Bravo! I totally agree.
He actually talks about that in the book but I don't have it here. Tipping that downhill ski tips "the kinetic chain" and the uphill foot/leg goes with it. He want's you to be passive with that (now outside and stance) foot but it's still edging because you're tipping with the inside "free foot".

So yes, your "fooling" yourself into edging both skis by just concentrating on only the downhill foot for the release which soon becomes the inside foot that you tip to the little toe side.

So apparently you also "fool" yourself into steering too. Talking about steering is verboten I guess because it would confuse one. The infuriating thing is that it's not even admitted that it exists!

So people know, this thread was continued from the "Stance Narrow or Wide?" most quotes are from over there: http://www.epic-ski.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000352-2.html

Snowkarver looks like you've got some explaining to do with your buddy wacko. JohnH has already taken this up over there.:

>>Hey SnoKarver. Sources tell me that you can't blend the teaching methods. When you do, you cancel out the balance training, which is really what PMTS is all about. Are you on the fence? If so, get off it.<< SCSA 5/22,6:55am

If he invites you over and serves kool-aid don't drink it!
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[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #15 of 50
Scientist Bill,
Thanks a lot for that explanation!

I was going to leave it at that but to recap, if I understood it correctly: By edging and steering/rotating the stance ski, we are automatically pressuring the tip of the ski, thus helping the ski to push that edge into the snow. This is different from the pressure (downward) that we get by using the foot to pressure the ski. And all (is this right?) just by basic principles of physics.
~Michelle H.~
( skiandsb@vail.net )
"Tell me I forget, teach me I remember, involve me I learn."
- Ben Franklin

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[This message has been edited by skiandsb (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #16 of 50
Yup, that's it,steering is not discussed.
It's so passive, ya don't talk about it.

Nicely explained in the biomechanics stuff in the PMTS intructors manual. It's there.

The idea is, to not discuss it with students.
And to not do any of the "bad rotary" yourself.

As I am presently doing lotsa computer consulting for real estate developers... I won't say a word about "marketecture" :O

I am not worried about blasphemy, I'm way too ex-catholic to be concerned.. And, I'm used to the "misunderstandings"

Skied a few runs at the Basin today, it was fun. Hiked the east wall, that was the nicest.


An argument isn't just contradiction.
Well! it CAN be!
No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't!
Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!


¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #17 of 50
Allright snokarver, now we're getting somewhere!

skiandsb you wrote:

>>By edging and steering/rotating the stance ski, we are automatically pressuring the tip of the ski, thus helping the ski to push that edge into the snow. This is different from the pressure (downward) that we get by using the foot to pressure the ski<<

The foot pressure will be downward into the snow and towards the outside of the turn. This will bend the ski into an arc primarily.
The steering will pressure the tip into the snow and towards the inside of the turn.

This tip force towards the inside of the turn is important because you can use it to change the radius of the turn.

(This is simplified of course. Actually it's a bit messier)

I've had an instructor say to me "Think about screwing your tips into the snow like a corkscrew". That's really active steering, no "fooling" yourself into it.

That apparently would not be allowed in pmts.
(I guess because in that system they want you to think there's only one way to ski. Perhaps later with book 3 it'll be o.k.)

try the slalom photos: http://www.ronlemaster.com/slalom1.htm

(counting from top) Schlopy 1st-2nd image, then 6th-7th. Be sure to look at Thomas Sykora at the bottom of the page doing old style slalom. Massive steering or do you call that pivoting? (I guess LeMaster would call it "pivoting to a large initial steering angle". By what's the diff. between pivoting/steering here?)
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[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #18 of 50
While we've got your ear a couple of questions. Back in the "Wacko how long have you skied" thread there was quite a discussion about instructors making very quick assesments of peoples abilities. Is there a scientific name to such mental assesments? (Used by detectives,parents...everyone!)

Also, is there a specific part of the brain devoted to athletic movement?

Perhaps these should be in a different thread.
post #19 of 50
It really comes down to this.

1) Skiers love it.
There's now literally thousands of skiers who have found a new love for a skiing as a direct result of PMTS. I've talked to so many skiers and their story is all the same. "I've spent thousands on lessons and never got any better. I got better in one day with this system".

2) Instructors love it.
Same story. Every instructor that goes through this training comes out a better skier and teacher. Contact the ones on the web site if you don't believe me.

3) Skiing industry heavyweights love it.
A former ABCD trainer and examiner who's a higher level than BB, has said he'd never go back to ABCD, because he knows it's less effective and causes problems down the line for those who want to improve.

There's plenty of other skiing industry icons, heavyweights, that say the same thing.

We can go on and on about this and that. Why? Have your thoughts and beliefs and I'll have mine.

But do yourselves a favor. Go see what all the fuss is about. Spend 3 days training with them. What's the worst that'll happen? Your skills won't get worse, I guarantee that. Your skills will improve.

later on -
post #20 of 50
1),2),3) have nothing to do with steering which is what the thread is about.

For 2)>> Instructors love it. Same story. Every instructor that goes through this training comes out a better skier and teacher<<
I'd hope so. Spend a few days in training with excellent teachers of course you're going to get better. What does this show?

>>3) A former ABCD trainer and examiner who's a higher level than BB, has said he'd never go back to ABCD, because he knows it's less effective and causes problems down the line for those who want to improve<<

Please tell this "heavyweight" to come talk about steering. Bob's already here.

As for problems, what are you going to do when (if) you start racing? You're going to keep your boots pressed together on an icy course doing 40 mph? Please tell me when this will occur I want to see it.

Once again you've bailed on the discussion. Perhaps SnoKarver will let you read the pmts instructor's manual.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #21 of 50
SnoKarver-I enjoyed skiing with you today. I've not been following this too carefully, however, I gather the gist involves HH et al not discussing/recognizing steering. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I harken back to the first run I made with Paul. He stood at the top at the Basin and "demoed" a 180 degree turn in the space of about three feet. He was headed east released his boards and turned west. Again, all done in a three to four foot area. He basically pirouetted on the sweet spot of his skis. I recall him saying something to the effect of, "I couldn't do that before". I remember thinking what would you want to do this for in the first place. I remember trying to crank my skis around like that when I got my first pair of Head 360's in 1969. I kept my mouth shut and assumed it was some cornerstone of PMTS training/technique.

My question is this. If a pirouette on skis is not due to steering then what is it? It sure isn't tipping or sidecut when you've moved downhill three to five feet.

Lastly, I just looked at Ron LeMasters photos. Wacko, why are all these great athletes/skiers in a stance that is certainly different from that espoused by PMTS. Not one of them has their boots clamped together. What would HH do with these folks?

SnoKarver, I know you are concerned about PMTS methodologies at upper levels so don't think I'm taking potshots. Just food for thought. Wacko, LOOK AT THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS! LOOK AT THIER PLATFORMS/STANCES. IT LOOKS LIKE A DIFFERENT SPORT IN COMPARISON TO WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT. YOU ARE BEING LED ASTRAY.

Paul, I'm your biggest fan. You have made wonderful progress and have become a fantastic skier. Did you hear me? I said a fantastic skier!!! YOU WILL NOT PROGRESS UNTIL YOU OPEN YOUR MIND TO MAIN STREAM METHODOLOGIES.

post #22 of 50
Two quotes from the PMTS (tm) instructor's manual:

"PMTS minimizes the use of rotational forces, particularly at the knees. Instead, it relies on tipping the skis, and letting them turn as designed wihout rotary input."


"when the inside foot is lightened and tipped to the little-toe side to initiate a turn (inversion) the center of mass falls to the inside of the turn and causes passive rotation of the femurs: externally for the inside leg, and internally for the outside leg"

"tipping the inside foot to the little-toe side causes passive rotation of the femurs into the turn. As an equal, and opposite reaction, the pelvis rotates slightly in the opposite direction."

It's better in full context with the rest of the chapter.

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #23 of 50
Ah C'mon Tog, we're splitting hairs.

I'm not qualified to debate with you guys. I only know one story. Edit: Heck, I don't even know all of that, yet.

But I will say this. When I get through this course, and I feel that I've reached my goal, I'm gonna take a peak around. I'd be stupid not to.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #24 of 50

I have to stay the course. Let me learn one system, then and only then can I begin to understand another.

I'm very happy with how things are going - the narrow stance is working for me and I'm getting better all the time.

Thanks a ton, though. Don't worry. We have thousands more days to ski which means thousands of learning opportunities.

Speaking of which. Saturday is the Beach Party at the Basin. You have to come. Drop me an email if you're coming.
post #25 of 50
yea Rusty, I like watching your turns..

Nice railroad tracks!

Umm yea, the 180 turn is interesting. Some refinements were needed in that demo, I didn't demo it myself.

Done properly, it's a quick, SKARVY turn, that I consider to be the equivalent, umm no replacement(?) for the pivot slip.

Lotsa control, very narrow corridor. If done right, turn width is the same as the lenght of the skis.

It's a pretty slinky feeling, and I like it.

I think I can still pivot slip well, but don't tell...

¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #26 of 50

Look at the Giant Slalom picture of my boy VonGruenigen. There's vertical separation, sure. The rest of the separation looks to be just the transfer of balance.

Maybe in racing one learns some different technique. But I'm not learning to be a racer. I'm learning to be a great all mountain skier. My stance works anywhere; bumps, powder, the whole bit.
post #27 of 50
Perhaps you'll make some progress.
Wacko, you don't have to "debate" until the times you start spewing rhetoric and things you've heard. There is no way to get past that other than taking it apart and talking about it - debating. Otherwise it degenerates into name calling.

So the question is: When will you decide that you've "completed the course".

Since you're already way past the intermediate hump that this program was designed for, why not expand your horizon's?

Also, do you find it odd that HH who has coached world cup racers and knows exactly what is going on advocates something which is used by hardly anyone of note?
Why is this?

I suspect Harald will modify his program-releasing a book 3 then claiming he was building to it all along. This will have wider stance.

Alright, there's some new stuff on Ron's site. He's got a slide show presentation.

From LeMaster's USSCA Academy 2001
(slide show)
Some quotes:
Because the new equipment holds better, the skier must balance against larger forces, requiring
–More inclination
–Wider stance to keep the legs out of each others’ way
–Better physical conditioning

The State of Technical Evolution:

Skis :
–Hold better
–Scribe tighter arcs
–Turn themselves better (the self-steering effect)
•Tactical and technical ramifications:
–Smaller initial steering angles
–More inclination
–Wider stance
–Phasing of vertical motion has shifted


(now it's time to take the subway home-it's 1am)
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[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #28 of 50
Man, am I ever glad you showed me those pictures. I could kiss ya.

Harald has been teaching us racing technique from day one - god bless him! The balance, the one foot stuff, it's how the racers ski. Look at the pictures. I'm so happy, I can't even stand it! Shit! I can be a racer now!

They balance on their little toe edge of stance foot, while lightening and flattening their free foot, then the free foot rolls over to it's little toe edge and it becomes the new stance foot. Boom! Just what I been practicing every day.

How come everyone else isn't practicing this stuff?

My boy Chase is learning racing technique!

Everybody should be teaching racing technique! Why not? The equipment is there - shaped skis. You can't even buy straight skis anymore. The whole problem is that the instruction hasn't caught up to the equipment. I just figured it all out!

When I want to start racing, I just need to make a few adjustments and boom! - I'll be ready - because I've been practicing the stuff! I'm going to have a huge advantage!

Holy Smokes!
I'm tellin ya!

I can't wait to go skiing again! <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #29 of 50
Well, since this thread is now all over the map. Tog, quick answer: My guess is that the part of the brain that is responsible for athletic skills would be the cerebellum, since it controls motor learning. Lesions of the cerebellum can disrupt coordination of limb and eye movements. Scibill can probably tell you much more.

Geez, Tog!!! 1:00am????!!!! You can't ride the NYC subways at 1:00am!!! When I left 5 years ago, it was too dangerous to ride at 1:00pm!

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence

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[This message has been edited by Lisamarie (edited May 22, 2001).]</FONT>
post #30 of 50
Thread Starter 
where did that last post come from?
It sounds like your quotes from the instructors manual confirm what we have suspected. Although they don't teach "active" steering the system does agree that there will be passive steering or "rotation of the femur". Just a new way of putting it. Interesting...

SCSA, time for another stop and look at what you are doing. The name change is not carrying out to the position change.
We were talking about steering not how your learning is better..
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