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Problem with ski tail hooking

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
I tried a new pair of skis today and encountered a problem. As I try to turn in moguls, my uphill ski tail hooks. My questions are:
1)Should I put more pressure on the uphill ski to avoid hooking? 2)Should I de-tune the tails, beyond the contact point?
Or, other issues are involved?
My new ski is Rossignol Bandit 1(114-74-104). Thank you very much in advance.

Theo
post #2 of 13
First question as a consequence of your user name, are you in an alpine or tele setup?

With any de-tuning go easy. Using a stone to increase the base bevel is better than actually trying to dull the edge.

When you say that the tail is hooking, do you mean you are catching the outside edge as you try to start a turn? That indicates a tail pushing move without getting the ski on the inside edge, and it can also happen if your weight is back. In other words your problem may be ski tuning, but could just as easily be pilot error.
post #3 of 13
The tail of the inside ski should not hook up if you are starting your turns with the inside ski by first flattening it and then rolling it onto its outside edge.
post #4 of 13
What part of the turn is it hanging up? What's it hooking on?
post #5 of 13
I'm sure most of the other posters giving advice in this thread, or indeed any thread are better bump skiers than I; I suck at bumps.

However, I can relate! I get very little chance to practice bump skiing, but that's ok because I prefer high speed carving. Still we all need to explore new ground, so I spend a little time working at it when I get the chance. I was at St. Louis Resort and they had a little section of small bumps. Near the end of the day when I was feeling a little tired and legs beginning to cramp up I decided it was time to shut down the high-speed carving (didn't want to over do it on the first day), so I took advantage and applied the technique that I had been working on last year - just over tip the skis so they skid and dump speed instead of carve. The first run was ok, but I over did the over tipping and went too slow. The second run, the sun was hiding and I couldn't see a single bump, so I went over a few instead of around them. The forth and fifth run were unremarkable, but on the third run I managed to do exactly what you describe.

Being used to throwing myself down the hill, and getting way inside the curve so to speak, combined with being very stuborn and wanting the skis to follow the very tight turns prescribed by the mogul line AND not being used to going so slow, I found myself ahead of my skis with gravity pulling me downslope and no momentum to provide the centrifugal force to push my skis against the snow while I tipped them to the new turn. In my typical carving situation I would have had enough speed in the cross-hill direction for centrifugal force to push the bases into the snow. In the slower mogul situation I got tripped up by the topsheet draging. The downhill ski was ok as it was on a flat icy part, but the uphill ski's inside edge caught on the uphill mogul while being dragged behind me and it's upper surface caught onto the snow and the ski was pulled off my foot. My mistakes, and maybe your's too, were getting too far ahead of the skis (downhill compared to the skis), and not driving the skis down the moguls ahead of me and being too stubborn about making my skis follow the chosen line when it was clear I should have abandoned it. On the plus side, I know that my binding will still release.

I look forward to the other (better) bump skiers chiming in with plenty of advice on how best to cure the above bad habit.
post #6 of 13
With out knowing how this is happening in more detail, my guess is that your tail hooking probably results from you not pushing your ski tips down into the troff as you crest the top of a mogul.
post #7 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post
With out knowing how this is happening in more detail, my guess is that your tail hooking probably results from you not pushing your ski tips down into the troff (editor: ahead of you) as you crest the top of a mogul.
What I thought.
post #8 of 13
Thread Starter 
Thank you very much for great input. I am on alpine gear. Let me be more specific on my hooking problem. Whenever I try to make a turn in mogul trough, my uphill ski's inside edge(tail) hooks. I might be hooking the side of the mogul with my ski tail. What causes this tail hooking as I try to turn in trough????? More or less tipping with the uphill ski, more flattening, or too much upper body angulation? Any, any thought would be wonderful.
post #9 of 13
I'm having a little trouble visualizing your problem. Do you feel it is happening at the end of the old turn or the start of the new one? When you say the inside edge do you mean the edge all the way to the inside of the turn, or do you mean the edges between your feet.

As I understand your question, as you go from on the fall line to across the fall line (the end of the turn) the edge on the big toe side of your uphill foot is digging in, forcing you into a wedge or even crossing your tips as you try to set up for/start your next turn. If this is the case the main causes are 1: Not releasing the uphill edge of the downhill ski as you initiate your turn. 2: Sitting back and 3: Not actively steering the inside ski all the through the turn.

When we get into bumps our heads try to slow down by pulling back and setting the edge on the downhill ski as we finish a turn. If I'm not willing to release that edge as I start my new turn I have to make a bigger turn to get around that old ski, as well as winding up on both big toe edges as I get to the fall line. If my weight is a bit back as I finish the turn that big toe edge on the now inside/uphill ski gets buried in the constricted space at the bottom of the trough keeping me from turning enough across the fall line to kill my speed and making the whole cycle start all over again.

If this is the case a solution is to work towards releasing BOTH edges and steering both skis down the hill, as well as staying forward so both tips drive into the next trough as suggested by tromano.

If I still don't understand your question let us know---We'll all keep trying to help.
post #10 of 13
I'm not sure I have an answer for you, but I believe I've encountered what you're describing. Several years ago, I had an older pair of Dynastar Speed SX's fresh from the shop with a full tune up including base grind. I didn't notice a problem on groomers, but first bump run of the day and I nearly killed myself. Spent a bit of time skiing groomers in hopes to adjust, but tried some more bumps and some steep off piste stuff, and I lost all confidence in my ability to swing my skis around. Those hooking tails were not just a nuisance, they were downright dangerous.

I never skied those skis again, so I can't say for sure what was the problem. However, I have to suspect that either the tails were not detuned, or the base bevel was too shallow. Regardless, I never want to experience that again!

I think those skis are still out in the shed... perhaps I should get 'em in the garage and examine the tune to see if I can tell what was the problem.

AM.

AM.
post #11 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by coloradoteleskier View Post
Thank you very much for great input. I am on alpine gear. Let me be more specific on my hooking problem. Whenever I try to make a turn in mogul trough, my uphill ski's inside edge(tail) hooks. I might be hooking the side of the mogul with my ski tail. What causes this tail hooking as I try to turn in trough????? More or less tipping with the uphill ski, more flattening, or too much upper body angulation? Any, any thought would be wonderful.

It can be tough to turn in the trough, so I am not surprised your tails are hanging up. Try this: ski up onto the backside of the mogul just a bit, which gets your tips and tails up out of the trough, and then spin your skis around. Then, drive the tips down into the trough as you follow through with a turn. Though brief, your tips and tails should be almost free of the snow as you ride up the back of the bump and spin, which makes for some very quick and hook-free turns.

In general, I think it's important to visualize near-constant contact between the snow and your skis when in moguls, using leg retraction and extension to manage the skis in the undulating terrain. If there is one instant where that near-constant contact comes to a minimum, it's that moment when you ride up the back of the bump and only the middle of the ski is touching the snow. But that's what makes it so easy to spin the skis without anything hooking or hanging up. Retract your legs as you ride up the bump, spin the skis, then drive down into the turn with a leg extension.

If your tails are still dragging when turning on the back of the bump, then it means you're in the backseat and you need to get weight forward. Part of the bump turn is also a blocking/braking on the back of the bump which will help you tip weight forward (it can be as minor as a cue -- not necessarily weight shifting).

There are a lot of ways to ski bumps, and I am only describing one that works for me (though I have yet to really nail it 100% of the time).
post #12 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by coloradoteleskier View Post
Thank you very much for great input. I am on alpine gear...
That's your problem right there.
post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 
You guys are great. After reading all the advice in this thread, I went back to bumps and tried what you guys suggested. Guess what? My weight shifting was all wrong: I was backseated as I tried to turn. Too much weight on the uphill ski. As you guys suggested, I pushed my hips(C.G.) way forward by early weight shifting. And it worked. No tail hooking at all!!!!!!! It was the matter of weight shifting(forward hips). THANK YOU VERY MUCH for wonderful advice. Happy Holidays!!!!!
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