Where does it all begin???

How about where the CM crosses over the skis? This seems reasonable for any turn with matched skis.

A turn begins when I stop my body from moving across the slope in one direction (from right to left) and begin to move it in the opposite direction (from left to right).

Think about it,
Yd

Hey zeek, welcome to the forum, I'm just about ten miles south of you in Uniontown.

Mosh,
My turns begin when my subconcious says I want to turn here. That manifests itself, from a traverse, in that I initiate the turn with a pole swing forward with the intention to plant it, that's the beginning of the turn, since I wouldn't do this if had no intention to turn.

Much the same holds true with linked turns. At the end of one turn I have to decide if I want to make another one or if I want to traverse in the direction this turn ended.

If I want to make another turn, as in linked, I would swing my pole forward again, as above, and if I decided to traverse, I wouldn't.

So when you asked "Where does a turn end", it is when I decide NOT to swing my pole forward in aticipaton of planting it.

Where does a turn start? When I DO.

In linked turns, where is the critical transision, you ask? It is the split second where I could end in a traverse, and pull it off, or swing my pole forward in anticipation of the next turn, and do that also.

As we near the end of one turn we all make a decision of what to do next. It could be a stop turn, a traverse, a change of pace in the next turn, or just keep the rythm, etc..

...Ott

This is pretty simple and fundamental. First, the CM has nothing to do with where the turn starts and ends. The CM moves as a result of other movemnets.

A turn starts and ends when the edges are released from the old turn. The CM moves over the feet

The next movement is the tranfer of weight from the old stance ski to the new stance ski. The CM is over or slightly downhill of the feet.

The next movement is to engage the ski. The CM is inside both feet. Inside ski is lightened and tipped to its little toe edge; the bigtoe edge of the outside ski is engaged as a result of the CM moving inside the arc of the turn.

IMO the turn begins when you start to change direction.

Turns Start and end in the fall-line.

Hi Mosh, and welcome to EpicSki!

And hello everyone! I've been out of touch up in northern Maine for a couple weeks now. I see you've all been busy....

When does a turn begin? There are several "correct" answers to this question--it's more philosophical than technical, isn't it? I like Ott's answer--it begins when I choose to change direction. Traditionally, that would be the "preparation phase," when I prepare both mentally and physically for the direction change. I may look in the new direction, choosing my path and looking for traffic, and I may turn parts of my body--arms, head, and torso--slightly in the new direction, stretching and strengthening the muscles that may be involved in beginning the direction change of the skis. Other preparatory movements may also take place--the pole swing begins in the preparation phase.

But there is no new direction change in the preparation phase. In linked turns, these activities clearly take place at the end of the previous turn, not the beginning of the new turn. If we define the essence of turns--as I do--as changes in the direction of motion of the center of mass, then a new turn would begin at the moment the curve transitions from left to right, or vice-versa. If a turn represents an arc--part of a circle (more or less}--then the turn begins the moment the "inside" of the circle changes sides. I can't agree with you, Rick, that a turn has nothing to do with the center of mass. It has everything to do with the center of mass!

This moment of transition coincides, in contemporary skiing, with the moment of "neutral." "Neutral" suggests that the skier is neither leaning left nor right, the skis are flat on the snow as they roll from one set of edges to another, the weight is equal on both skis as it flows from old outside ski to new outside ski, and the skis are pointed straight ahead, neither turned left nor right. Neutral is a fleeting moment of no duration whatsoever. It is NOT a "position" that we move to and from. It is more like a doorway that we pass through without stopping. A car passes through neutral also, when cruising through an S-turn, as the driver turns the wheels from left to right in a smooth, continuous movement. Like the skier, the weight is equal left to right at that moment, but it flows quickly toward the new outside wheels.

So the physical and mental process of making a direction change begins before the direction change actually begins (which is traditionally known as the beginning of the "initiation phase"). Either the preparation phase or the initiation phase could properly be argued the "beginning" of the turn.

One thing that is important, though, is that in modern skiing the motion from turn to turn and throughout each turn is usually continuous, flowing, cyclical. There really is no distinct beginning or end. You could argue for any point in the cycle being the transition from one turn to another.

Interesting things sometimes happen to skiers when they consider a turn to begin and end "in the fall line" (the moment the skis point directly downhill), and that the s-shaped path between these points represents one turn. This thought can often help smooth the transition through "neutral," resulting in a breakthrough to the next level of smoothness! If I'm reading Ydnar correctly, this is the point he's describing. Until the fall line, you are moving either left or right across the slope. After the fall line, you are moving the other direction.

Anyway, good question, Mosh! As for me, since Loveland is apparently open in Colorado, my own turns should begin in just a few days!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

Edit--I see Roto also suggests the fall line as a good place to think of the starting and ending a turn. I'm glad to see that it's a popular, if a bit unusual, idea!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 22, 2001 06:35 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>

Gee I get to the end and Bob beats me to the punches. I do not clearly distinguish the beginning and end of the turn in terms of position either but instead, of movement and intent. If a skier starts thinking of begining and end at a clearly defined set point, then that skier with inevitably have a slight traverse between turns.

Bob's comments hint at another way to describe when a turn starts or ends. In the second to last paragraph Bob mentions smoothness.

Before you are no longer a dynamic skier, before you become static, locked in, then it is time to turn. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Bob Barnes,

Two things that I have disagree with you.

1) Mosh gave some specific examples that are objective. Ott and others are subjective and not open for debate.

2)I specifically said that the turn is not started by the CM. I said that the CM is the result of movements that cause the CM to move.

Comments?

Nice to see Bob B. around.

The first thing I do to start a new turn is relax my stance leg. So, that's where a new turn starts.

Where does one end? Hmm. I guess when I've fully flexed my stance leg.

Rephrasing Ott (or putting it all in simple terms):
It all starts in your head, and that is also where it all ends

Everything else is just a consequence, or result of your mental activity.

VK

Mosh is moshed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>how do you get your but out of the old turn?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting choice of words, mosh! The main reason why this is even an issue for so many skiers is that they finish their turns with their butts down low and usually back and often inside. So they have to make some kind of usually awkward correcting movement to get back to the "starting position."

The solution lies in the first discussion of when a turn starts. In linked turns, the start of one is obviously the same as the end of the previous one. So turns must begin and end in the same "position" (I hate to use that word, because as we've discussed, it is never static). One way of looking at it is that all the way through each turn, I am working to end in "neutral." If I end the turn thus, I neither need to do anything in particular to finish the turn, nor anything to start the next. The motion is continuous and smooth, and the transition is no more of an "event" than it would be in a car linking turns.

The problem lies in the still common myth that we should "start a turn tall, sink through the control phase, and end the turn low. If we start and end a turn in different positions, the turns can't be linked!

Anyway, that's one answer. Of course, there are as many ways to end turns as there are to make them. Turns that involve upper body rotation, or turns made by throwing the skis into a skid, or pushing off a "platform," have additional requirements. They truly do need to be "stopped" before the next turn can begin.

Gotta go....

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

Why do I feel uncomfortable with this:
"my skis are completly flat to the snow and body square and perpendicular to the slope. From here is where I begin making movements."?.

I think that at that point you are well into the turn already. If at that moment you decide you didn't want to make another turn after all, could you abort it without making backpaddeling maneuvers? You have been making quite a few movements to get from either the starting traverse or the finish of the previous turn to get to the point of flat skis and square body.

Think of it this way: make one turn at the time, start from a traverse with your skis edged. Now make a turn. After releasing the edges and getting your body square over flat skis you may be in neutral, but the turn started well before that.

The end of the turn comes when you are again edged as you were before you started the turn, only in th eopposite direction.

If you decide to make another linked turn instead of a traverse, your choice, you release the edges again and the skis go to flat on the snow and your body goes to neutral and again you are COMITTED to the turn already. No backing out. So that couldn't possibly be the very start of the turn.

....Ott

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mosh:
Ok gang I know that this is certain to stir things up a bit.

When does a turn end and begin??

potential answers:

While the edges are engaged.

While the skis are flat on the snow.

This is the key to understanding how to make skiing consistant in all conditions on flats and steeps. Many people in the ski world at all levels are perplexed about this area. This should be fun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The turn ends and begins at the "finitiation".

[img]null[/img]

From a centered balanced position movements such as:

-relaxation or flexion of the outside leg

-rolling the ankles to tip the skis to the opposite set of edges

-extending the new outside leg

enabling CM to cross over the center of the skis and downhill into the next turn are what I would consider preperatory movements. This initiates the next turn. According to PSIA manual, if I recall correctly, this is where a turn starts. It's like step 1 of 4. (make a turn in 4 easy steps-no)

Though, until the instant when the CM is between the two skis, all edges are released, and before the next set are engaged is when the curve transitions.(look at the tracks) As was mentioned before skiing is dynamic and all movements flow into the next.
I think of the next turn starting in advanced skiing at the same point the edges are changed. (not accurate for wedge, christys, stems, etc.)

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 22, 2001 09:33 PM: Message edited 1 time, by zeek ]</font>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mosh:

So the next question:
how do you get your but out of the old turn?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't leave it there

if one skis with much tip lead, the butt is already over the back of the new outside ski. Why start a turn headnig into the back seat? Reduce tip lead. It also helps put more pressure over that inside ski.

It sounds to me like SCSA and Bob Barnes are pretty close on this one.

Slatz--you're scarin' me....

Rick H--perhaps I misread your point about the CM--sorry. One reasonable way to define a turn is that it is a change in direction of motion of the center of mass. But I agree with you that it is a mistake to think of starting a turn with a deliberate movement of the CM. The CM moves (accelerates/turns) as a result of external forces acting on it, which we can manipulate with various movements of the feet and legs, in particular. So you are right that it is those causal movements that we must focus on as far as ski technique goes.

To your other point, first, is not this entire discussion really subjective and philosophical? And second, why would subjective opinions not be open to debate? True, it is pointless to argue about whether someone's opinion is in fact his opinion. If I say, "my opinion is this," it would be absurd to argue the truth of the statement! But the basis for any opinion is certainly a reasonable topic for discussion, no?

In any event, if you read through my posts, you will see that I very rarely express opinions. I try very hard to discuss facts and let others draw their own conclusions, if they choose. In this discussion in particular, I've presented several reasonable options, but I haven't proclaimed any of them to be the "right answer."

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

Bob
When SCSA "relaxes his stance foot" isn't he in "neutral"? The other one should go flat, right?

Yes, Slatz, I would say so. But don't tell SCSA that....

:

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

ydnar, I agree whole heartedly with your post. When people start thinking of the edge change as the beginning of the turn they will inevitably put a slight travese into their skiing and will never fully understand the relationship between the feet and the Center of Mass movement.

This really escapes me. How do you folks teach a class to make a turn? Even on a fairly steep slope, your class standing in line across the fall line, you explain and then demonstrate a carved turn.

I have always presumed that you demonstrate from a medium traverse, edges engaged and going straight. You start the turn by swinging your pole forward and planting it as you release your edges, engage them as your CM moves to the other side, and, to lose the speed gained during the fall line phase of the turn you finish the turn. (finish=end).

If your make two turns, linked, you do the pole thing/edging/etc AFTER you have lost the speed gain of the first turn, seamlessly, and then you fnish=end that second turn.

And where are you now? Balanced over your edged skis.

As for the no traverse between turns: There are skiers who link turns from top to bottom no matter what they go over, and then there are those of us who mostly ski the terrain, seeking out this feature in the center and that feature at the edge of the slope, often throwing in a short or long traverse across the slope or even short swinging cross/slope.

Any racer, slalom or GS, has to make linked turns in close set gates and do traverses to get to offset gates, and they do these traverses at the finish=end of their turn in the last gate. And how do they do that? on their edges, balanced over their skis. And how do they start the turn into the next gate? See above.

...Ott

Terminology funk?

I'm reading "traverse" as the moment when the skis come flat to the snow. Cuz, I'm thinking of my turns and I can't see a traverse.