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not your same old Movement Analysis thread...

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I did a search on Movement Analysis before making this post - lest I be bombarded with the "redundancy" chastisements!

I also wanted to have an informal discussion instead of a poll.

1. In your own words, what is Movement Analysis?

2. If you are an instructor, how competent do you consider yourself to be in the practice of Movement Analysis in your lessons?

3. To all who take lessons, when/how often has your instructor integrated Movement Analysis into your lesson(s)?

4. Is Movement Analysis the foundation of ski instruction?

Thanks in advance!
kiersten
post #2 of 24
The ability to see the movements a skier is making, knowing what effect these movements are having on their skiing, the uderstanding to determine why the skier is making these moves and what can be kept and what might be done more efficiently.

Kieli, I'm always on movement analysis mode in a lesson but I don't give constant feedback on what I'm seeing. Only when it's asked for or I feel it's benificial.

Can you really turn it off? :
post #3 of 24
1) M/A is has two primary components, recognition and prioritization. First, to recognize what is happening, and then to choose the most important issue to address. Which may or may not a movement issue.

2) I consciously do it all the time and would be wandering aimlessly without it.

3) Usually, but not enough when a pre-determined agenda was given priority.

4) M/A is a critical component of the on-going decision making each instructor uses to guide the direction flow of the learning pathway. As such, M/A is critical component of the foundation. There is a level of knowledge component that determines the quality of M/A.

:
post #4 of 24
[1. In your own words, what is Movement Analysis?]

I agree with Arc on this one. Its a two component process. First of all determining what efficient movement patterns a skier is making and what inefficient movement patterns are also being done. Second an instructor must prioritize and decide what change in movement pattern will make the biggest difference in the alloted time with the student.

[2. If you are an instructor, how competent do you consider yourself to be in the practice of Movement Analysis in your lessons?]

Very competent but I have to be careful not to inject the latest agenda that I have been working on in my own skiing to the present situation. I catch myself doing that more often than I care to admit.

[3. To all who take lessons, when/how often has your instructor integrated Movement Analysis into your lesson(s)?]

Its sadly lacking in many of our clinics. I do see great movements analysis when I get to the full examiner or D team level.

[4. Is Movement Analysis the foundation of ski instruction?]

Movements analysis is just one tool. The foundation of ski instruction is very good teaching methods.
post #5 of 24
Everyone has identified what are movement analysis`. It would be redundant to repeat what has been previously written.
What I think is just as important as the application of an appropriate M/A are the appropriate Movement Patterns based on the M/A. The movement patterns of good skiing thread thru all levels of skiing. That is to say , the very same movement patterns are reflected on the green , blue and black terrain.
This is where we as professionals are challenged to dig into our "big bag of tricks" and create the tasks that reflect the skills which are basic to green, blue and black terrain. We take those same movement patterns that are identified at the "expert" level and make task application at the basic level---with appropriate terrain. What we do is develope the skills/tasks at each level as the skier improves with terrain and task changes.
The basic movement patterns are the same thru out green, blue and black.--------IMHO-------.
post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by kieli:
I did a search on Movement Analysis before making this post - lest I be bombarded with the "redundancy" chastisements!

I also wanted to have an informal discussion instead of a poll.

1. In your own words, what is Movement Analysis?


Taking stock of what movements result in ski performances in a non-judgemental context. (error correction is the ptioritization part, and a different process, yes, they overlap in reality, but training for them both is not the same.)

2. If you are an instructor, how competent do you consider yourself to be in the practice of Movement Analysis in your lessons?


very competent, but nowhere near the ceiling as to "growth" or how much I have to learn.

3. To all who take lessons, when/how often has your instructor integrated Movement Analysis into your lesson(s)?


I do have coaches who generally include M/A in every session I participate in, but it's different from a "lesson" so figure it doesn't really apply to your Q.


4. Is Movement Analysis the foundation of ski instruction?


No. It is important. It is a part of the fundamentals, but most instructors do not become proficient at M/A until several years into their careers. I think it's tough to point to any one thing as the foundation of ski instruction, but a desire or satisfaction in helping people might be it.

Thanks in advance!
kiersten
[ November 23, 2003, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #7 of 24
Movement analysis is the ski instructional equivalent of a medical workup or the discovery phase of a legal proceeding. It's evidentiary, my dear Watson.

Movement analysis is the detective work--a lot of fun and never done--but one must move along to diagnosis/hypothesis and prescription for change or the client becomes disenchanted with our services, to say the least.

It's not something I stop and do, but is ongoing--certainly a lot of teaching is purely spontaneous and dictated by immediate observation. Whatever the thought process is that accompanies the observation and leads to applying this exercise or that is movement analysis.

The instructor who is competent is fast, accurate, and decisive in his or her workup. Watch ER.

Would you say that the initiation is the foundation of a turn? I'd say M/A is the initiation of a lesson or class, because it sets the program du jour.
post #8 of 24
1. In your own words, what is Movement Analysis?

Cause and effect. It gives the coach a starting place and makes it easier with their explanations on how to become a better skier.

2. If you are an instructor, how competent do you consider yourself to be in the practice of Movement Analysis in your lessons?

MA is something you do from the every first lesson you ever teach. You may not know that’s what it’s called, but that’s what you’re doing when you teach. The more lessons you teach, the better you get at it. And the more training in MA, even better yet. So that said, I’ve been at this for 28 seasons. Think I got it down pretty good.

3. To all who take lessons, when/how often has your instructor integrated Movement Analysis into your lesson(s)?

I’m going to answer this not being the one taking the lesson. The average student is not familiar with the term MA. Therefore wouldn’t know if MA was being used.

4. Is Movement Analysis the foundation of ski instruction?

It’s a very large part of it. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] ----Wigs
post #9 of 24
Great Question!
1. In your own words, what is Movement Analysis?

...Identifying current movements, comparing them to desired changes/goals,considering what (if anything) might be preventing the desired changes, choosing the best path to the desired changes/goals.

2. If you are an instructor, how competent do you consider yourself to be in the practice of Movement Analysis in your lessons?
...competent enough.

3. To all who take lessons, when/how often has your instructor integrated Movement Analysis into your lesson(s)?
...even though I am an instructor...sharing what I see is like...'verbal-video'. It creates a great opportunity to help a skier understand what their patterns of movement or tactics are.

4. Is Movement Analysis the foundation of ski instruction?

...It is an invaluable piece...but not the only one! Unless we can take the technical aspect (MA + skill development) and match it to the motivational aspect (what a skier wants) then we can only assume we are giving a skier the changes they desire...and have paid for! It's like really wanting a hamburger...but being served tofu...cause it's better for me, and analysis shows that it's what I need...

ttfn
momski
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by kieli:
3. To all who take lessons, when/how often has your instructor integrated Movement Analysis into your lesson(s)?

Instructor A - pretty much every lesson I would think... in some way or another...
This is the discipline one.... even an analysis of my nervous contortions seems to include a description of the resulting movement patterns...
"maintain the discipline" - keep the good movement patterns going

Instructor B - sometimes yes - sometimes no - about 50% I'm thinking, although I KNOW he is thinking about it all the time - he tends to talk to me more about getting me confident in my skiing

Instructor C (now ex as I no longer ski that resort) - nope not much..... he gave up on technical talk when the questions I asked comparing his "physics" to instructor A's became a luttle tricky - he was very good at teaching to the mental side of the equation though

various others .... most work out early on that I'm a technical type of learner - it is easier to tell me what you are seeing & how you want it to change than to "show me" - beacuse I'll never see it in a pink fit...
Most probably fit in around the 50% type mark if I will ski with them more than a single lesson
post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by kieli:
4. Is Movement Analysis the foundation of ski instruction?

Not merely analysis of movement. Observation, analysis, assessment and readjustment of teaching out to be more or less continuous and second nature I should think, maybe just the opposite of the lesson plan.

What are your objectives, or should I ask, what informs your lesson content?
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by momski:
...sharing what I see is like...'verbal-video'. It creates a great opportunity to help a skier understand what their patterns of movement or tactics are...
With respect to the tools of movement analysis, while instructors obviously can't video every one of their students, I find video of me to be *vastly* more persuasive and informative than even the best verbal description of my skiing. Maybe its just me, but about 15 years ago, two blurry, 5 sec clips from home movies that happened to include me did more for my skiing than did hours of instruction, and that was without professional commentary (ie, M/A), just me looking at it and dispassionately comparing myself to other skiers.

It's not just "the camera doesn't lie" issue, but the specific language used to describe someone's skiing almost always includes lots of qualitative terms (eg, "too much", "not enough", "too early", etc.) that (IMHO) just aren't specific enough to allow me to dial in the right amount or the right time as compared to a video.

This season, I'm planning to get some up-to-date footage *with* pro M/A, the best of both worlds. After the lab tests are back and the diagnoses are in, they will then be followed by the treatment phase. I hope the prognosis is good, Doc's.

Tom / PM

[ November 24, 2003, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by PhysicsMan:
I find video of me to be *vastly* more persuasive and informative than even the best verbal description of my skiing. [/QB]
I've always thought this could be a very effective teaching tool, particulary if the playback were more or less immediate. I tried for a few years to convince my school to install a monitor in the race timing shack so that you could plug in a camera and get slopeside widescreen play back. Other suggestions were to remotely activate an indoor mounted stationary camera, pour a dyeline on the slope in the area covered by the camera etc. Possibly just having a cameraman there during certain lesson periods, with a slopeside phone to the cameraman at the top of the slope for the use of instructors. I never got anywhere with this of course, ski schools will never change anything, but I think of the old saw that "a picture is worth a thousand words" and wonder that so much of the challenge in teaching is communication,,,,,and here is this wonderful tool for communication......
post #14 of 24
Arcadie & PM - my instructor (the race coach one) has a video camera he uses to take footage of me (& me of him - so I have a comparison) - we then look at it over one of my coffee breaks & go "try to make it better".....

PM - I tend to get the MA linked to what I FEEL... not just a simple 'too late' or "earlier" or "more" or "less"....
but rather a "Yes your 3rd turn - felt bad because you did xxxx - but the later 3rd of the run you started to yyyy & then it was better" ... ie nearly every time we halt I am asked how it felt... when appropriate it is linked back to the MA & to tips/coaching - call it what you will

Similarly with the video - it i usually used to SHOW me what it is I do that produces the FEELINGS I get from the skis...

Arcadie - agree that IMMEDIATE feedback is best from the video - while I still REMEMBER how those turns felt....
post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
[/qb][/quote]What are your objectives, or should I ask, what informs your lesson content?[/QB][/quote]

Arcadie - I am assuming you were directing this question to me... I'm not sure I 100% understand what you're asking, but I will take a stab...

IN THIS THREAD my objectives are to generate good convo... another thread made me think of this topic.

IN MY LESSONS my objectives are
- please the client/give them what they asked for
- find a way to weave instruction into a fun/enjoyable time
- leave the client wanting more

What informs my lesson content?

There are SOO many factors that I take into consideration, including:
- ask the client where they like to ski the most, what trails they feel most comfortable on
- ask the client why they decided to take a lesson
- ask the client if they have any particular goals/objectives

Then, during the lesson:
- we ski one run to "warm-up" and I check out their skiing
- on the chair ride up... I ask more questions... always open-ended questions hoping to lead them to "asking" me for the appropriate lesson...
- I try to talk as little as possible on the trail - save it for the chair (it the group is bigger, I rotate chairs)
- I try to structure the lesson in a manner that gives a a few quick "wins" - things they can easily do... and then ask them to move outside of their comfort zone a bit... then the last run brings them back to where we started - that "warm-up" run and I ask them to meet me at the bottom and tell me all the changes they notice/feel.

Of course, that's IDEAL.

kiersten
post #16 of 24
So what do you use MA for in your teaching? A broader question might be what is the expertise you bring and how do you fold that in with your service to the client ?
post #17 of 24
While this drags us back to MA and out of Lito’s thrust and bold statement “Narrow is better”, I have been lurking with interest on this MA topic. After just spending a full day going blurry eyed reviewing films in an MA class, I think I found the one-item instructors should think and talk more about and don't seem to; the student's equipment. Granted, there may be very little that can be done at the moment concerning a student’s equipment; however, a knowledgeable instructor can help the student avoid bad choices in the future. The wrong equipment makes a long and challenging lesson for both the student and the instructor.In the end we may loose an otherwise avid skier. In truth, until the equipment is reasonably correct, progress is very difficult. So after we see what we see, prioritize what we see, then it is important we look again; it really may be the equipment. Equipment is the part of MA we hearlittle about in most discussions.

[ November 25, 2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Floyd ]
post #18 of 24
Att`n: S. Des Monts---MA is the diagnosis as explained by Mom Ski at al. Movement Patterns are the prescriptions applied to the problem. That are the the tasks necessary in skill developement to resolve the problem/s.
Check prior post. :

[ November 26, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Larry C ]
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Larry C:
Att`n: S. Des Monts---MA is the diagnosis as explained by Mom Ski at al. Movement Patterns are the prescriptions applied to the problem. That is the the tasks necessary in skill developement to resolve the problem/s.
Check prior post. :
Larry

I think the topic was: "What is movement analysis?....Is Movement Analysis the foundation of ski instruction?"

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it would seem reasonable then to ask how you employ MA in teaching, particularly if you are suggesting it might be the foundation of ski instruction.

I suspect we all see the topic in differing light. That leads me to beleive the ways we each approach the topic could be interesting. [img]smile.gif[/img]

PS
See the following, also in Momski's post:
"Unless we can take the technical aspect (MA + skill development) and match it to the motivational aspect (what a skier wants) then we can only assume we are giving a skier the changes they desire"

Hence the question, which I might have phrased a little better. Lets say the question might be: "How do you match MA to the motivational aspect?"

[ November 25, 2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: sieur des monts ]
post #20 of 24
Have a look at my answer to arcadie & Physics man & you can see at least what my instructors do to link the MA they do back into my skiing & my lesson....

Then again FEEL is mainly how I ski as I have no ability to judge body position & movement without reference to my other senses...
post #21 of 24
I think I see an interesting question developing here. Kieli asks if Movement Analysis is the foundatiomn of teaching and then, in a description of her own teaching describes her customer centered approach. (I think she's answering her own question here) Of course I would hope that every ski lesson is guest centered but I wonder how you handle the situation where your Movement Analysis suggests that what the guest needs is not what the guest wants. How broadly do you interpret the guests desires. I mean that surely the guest hires a professional for expertise as well as accommodation. How well served would you feel by instructors who did not avail you of their expertise but were only accomodating? I like Disski's instructor's use of the video, pretty hard to quarrel with a video of yourself. For what its worth, I wonder how others approach this?

By the way, thanks Disski, for your input and your insight.

[ November 25, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: arcadie ]
post #22 of 24
Thread Starter 
Arcadie... how it feels to the customer and what I am REALLY hoping to accomplish may be two different things. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I ask LOTS and LOTS of questions. I engage the customer and get them to do more talking. My goal is to guide them to discovering what I know they need. It may sound a bit Machiavellian, but I promise I have the best of intentions!!

In my mind, MA is a critical skill. First you need the eye/skill to do the MA. Then you need the ability to integrate the analysis into a lesson plan.

I also agree with all the other posts that say you don't have to get into the technical discussion with the learner - unless they appreciate that type of discussion!

I wish more mountains taught MA clinics.

Happy Thanksgiving - and to you non-americans... Happy Thursday!

kiersten
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by arcadie:
I mean that surely the guest hires a professional for expertise as well as accommodation. .
Yep Arcadie - I refuse to tell the instuctor what I "want to work on" ... quite simply I want to ski better & I recognise that may mean I have to work on stuff that I would prefer not to work on - because I don't like it yet because it is still tricky.... I trust them to see when I have had enough - or I will tell them when I have had enough of something....

I know that sometimes it drives them nuts - because they would prefer I say "oh I love the racecourse" or "lets ski xxx" but I know that they have usually been on the hill since before 7am & have a MUCH better idea what conditions are like over the hill as a whole... also they have a better BIG picture idea of what needs to change in my skiing - while I am always bogged in the minutiae
post #24 of 24
S.D.M.--Please refer to the "vail ResortsTeaching Handbook"-Current issue--2003-2004. I think their handbook was out well before The PSIA Alpine Tech Manuel. They talk of the same concepts--a bit different terminology. The Vail Book talks of "Assessing Movements" within the students developemental zones and then they use the term movement options (patterns) specifically to be used to improve proficiency as addressed by the assessment. One cannot talk of MA without talking about MP.
They should not be seperated. They are contiguous.
In part they are supplemental and in part they are complemental.
The Vail book talks of five major movement pools(patterns) : adjusting stance,flexing and extending, moving foot to foot, tipping the feet and legs, twisting the feet and legs. They then talk of tactics, referring to selection of movement blends,timing, duration, intensity, direction, completion,and transition phases of a turn. All within a students assessed developemental zone.

Bottom line---MA must be joined with MP. I do realize what was asked by the initiator, Everyone`s comments reflected the same core--just different verbage. I felt it was timme to bring in MP.
This is the longest post I have ever made to Epic.
I`ve tried to be brief and concise without repetition. IMHO
: sorry!!
They are making snow on the M`tn. This type of a thread will fade soon---when we get back on the hill and do what we do best--teach PEOPLE to ski and to ski for our own pleasure. Have a good season.
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